Originally posted by The_Tempest
You seem particularly troubled by my choice of phrasing, so in the interest of clarification, I’ll be painfully clear: By “veritable unknown,†I meant “veritable unknown relative to Sidious,†which he factually is.Sidious is probably the most exposed Sith Lord in the mythology, second only to Vader.
That's... a bit of a cop-out response. It's a response that classifies pretty much everyone but Sidious and Vader as 'virtually unknown Sith.' We've got more combat evidence on Krayt than we do Maul.
None of this suggests parity with Sidious. All it suggests is that Krayt is a badass.There's a big difference between "badass" and "can hang with Sidious." 🙂
Please. Maul + Opress put up a fight. Dooku could put up an even better fight than those two.
It is not that rare for Sith to be able to combat Sidious.
Not 'win,' but combat.
Didn't read the rest, to be honest. Scans or quotes from relevant sources would be cool; if I want a synopsis, I'll read their wiki pages.
See, this just makes me hear "I'm going to discount things in favor of my assumptions."
It is mildly annoying when people just don't want to hear things that don't support their conclusion.
Q99, you do realize that Sidious had Maul and Savage at his mercy with the force, and it only went to a saber duel because Sidious chose for it to be that way, right? You do realize that Sidious wasn't trying to kill Maul, and was obviously toying with them? This doesn't suggest they put up a fight. It suggests Sidious was enjoying himself like Filoni said.
Originally posted by Q99
That's... a bit of a cop-out response. It's a response that classifies pretty much everyone but Sidious and Vader as 'virtually unknown Sith.' We've got more combat evidence on Krayt than we do Maul.
That's... not a cop-out response at all. Sidious is an exceptionally well-known character and his feats and accolades have been paraded around here for years and years and years. The burden is on you to establish why a comparatively obscure Sith Lord is capable of duking it out with him.
Originally posted by Q99
Please. Maul + Opress put up a fight.
Please. Maul and Opress, in Filoni's own words, got their asses kicked.
Originally posted by Q99
Dooku could put up an even better fight than those two.
Putting up a better fight than two guys who were steamrolled from start to finish? That's quite a point you've made there.
Originally posted by Q99
It is not that rare for Sith to be able to combat Sidious.Not 'win,' but combat.
It's plenty rare. Very few Sith Lords can legitimately contend with Sidious on even terms. Can it be done? Sure. Is Krayt among their number? Perhaps. But that is your burden to fulfill.
Originally posted by Q99
See, this just makes me hear "I'm going to discount things in favor of my assumptions."It is mildly annoying when people just don't want to hear things that don't support their conclusion.
I've already told you that you've persuaded me that Krayt has a legitimate shot of winning this thread, capable of beating the Empire on even terms, which is extraordinary.
So let's dispense with the idea that I'm ignoring anything. I realize that you're Krayt's champion in these parts and you detest the fact that Legacy is pretty much glossed over here. I appreciate that you're a long suffering underdog.
But the fact is that Sidious is, in your own words, the best Sith. He's smarter than Krayt, he's more powerful than Krayt, he's more skilled than Krayt, he's more accomplished than Krayt, and he probably has the bigger dick.
You already admit all this, so I'm not sure what the deal is. You'll forgive me for needing more than "well he lost an arm to Obi-Wan after a tough fight" and "he's got lots of experience" to put him on par with the ultimate Sith.
Mikequeer always enters a debate trying to put on this act like he's some kinda aggressive mean guy, but then whimpers and complains when someone gets too "personal" with him.
Tempest
Please. Maul and Opress, in Filoni's own words, got their asses kicked.
But it actually took some time to do so.
Remember, this was brought up because we're talking about 'Sidious assassinating Krayt.'
Meaning that, if it takes awhile, then reinforcements show up.
If Krayt can hold out as long as they did, reinforcements would arrive. If it took, say, twice as long as those two did, pretty reasonable I'd say, then a bunch more aid would arrive (probably, say, 20~ no-names plus 2-3 inner circle members).
I thought you were arguing that in-armed Krayt would die *fast*, which is what I'm objecting to.
Can it be done? Sure. Is Krayt among their number? Perhaps. But that is your burden to fulfill.
Personally I'd say I have, at least with Reborn Krayt. If you take someone who's post-RotS Obi Wan level in sabers, then give two *major* upgrades (after *just the first of which* he was considered a major powerhouse by Luke and sparked Jacen's fear so much he became Caedus), you're very near the top. Dooku's only about one tier above Kenobi IMO.
Or to put it another way, don't take my word for it, take Luke and Jacen's.
Originally posted by Q99
That's one of the things a large organization has going for it- It can, if it choses, put a sizable chunk of force-users on it for a nigh-sure win, and most of the time the majority of those force users will come back for reuse. In addition to all the little victory they make dispersed.Sure, and the Krayt Empire is also at war and built-up bigtime, only with a lot more modern forces.
The GE may have somewhat of a numerical advantage, but not an overwhelming one considering the Krayt Empire's powerbase/industrial base/recruitment base is roughly the same size. I would not expect the size different to even make up for the tech difference.
It might, especially since, IIRC, Krayt didn't have full control over his empire, a large portion still served Fel.
And what is the difference in tech besides their tie-fighter equivalent? Also, IIRC, The Ultimate Visual Guide implies that Palpatine purposely did not have shields installed on tie fighters because the number of them and pilots for them were so unlimited that he found them as expendable. Not much much the same with Krayt's force users. While Krayt's empire wasn't just limited to force users, he would still have to choose very wisely on using them.
But as Lucien and Tempest said, we need more statistics on Krayt's empire to properly debate this. Furthermore, we don't even know which empire would hold control over which territory, which would matter. Or are we assuming for the sake of this thread that it's two separate galaxies (with two Coruscants, for example)?
Originally posted by Q99
Sure, on an individual basis, and Sidious was working in direct proximity to Plagueis.
It doesn't matter. You suggested that Sidious wouldn't be able to use his mind fogging abilities on Krayt and his sith because they are dark siders, and I gave you examples of dark siders having their minds clouded by the dark side. The dark side can be used against other dark siders, therefore there is nothing to suggest that Palpatine can't use his mind fogging abilities against his enemies on account of them being dark siders.
Originally posted by Q99
Exactly, light-side forceusers. Sith draw on the same emotions he does. Such unrest in the force feeds, not weakens, them.
This might be true. Palpatine's fear inducing ritual may backfire, considering that sith draw their powers from such emotions. But unless their fear and unease quickly turns into focused rage, it may cause them to stagger for a bit, potentially costing them some victories.
Originally posted by Q99
Lesse, stabbed in the *neck*, hit with the force lightning of one of the Hundred Years Darkness original sith lords combined with his own returned to him, thrown off a cliff, and then hit with more force lightning.Unlike Maul, people actually checked to make sure he was dead.
I think you've got it quite backwards 🙂 Krayt was actually dead-dead, he healed himself back, while Maul merely preserved himself from major injury.
Yeah, having your body literally tore into and falling a great distance, seems a lot harder to heal and to survive than the injuries Krayt's dealt. You also ignored when I told you about the scan I seen of Vader coming back to life. I assume you know of it?
Originally posted by Q99
Except for the control of life and death at a level that not even Dark Empire Sidious achieved, let alone RotJ.
I'm definitely more impressed by Sidious coming back after having his entire body incinerated, which is how Cade made sure that Krayt could never come back. So while Krayt has ways of bringing himself back to life through mean in which Sidious probably didn't, I would feel more threatened by an enemy who can come back even after having his body completely destroyed. And you have to remember that Palpatine's own strength in the dark side, which was far greater than Krayt's, was what was killing his already sabotaged clone bodies.
Originally posted by Q99
He's also used illusions in personal combat more impressively than Sidious.
Not really. He used it on Cade when Cade was nearly unconscious, which wouldn't be the best state of mind to resist such visions.
Originally posted by Q99
And in lightsaber fighting, all signs are that even Armored Krayt had leveled up significantly and was a level or two above Obi-wan (as his young self, purely in sabers was about Obi-wan level).
The same Obi Wan who consistently struggled and nearly lost some fights to Grievous? Sidious slaughtered Kit, who is pretty much on par with Kenobi and who has casually tooled Grieovous, in a matter of seconds despite the fact that Kit initially had Mace and two other saber masters alongside him. Yeah, Sidious is several notches above Kenobi to such an extent that Kenobi would a complete non-factor to him in a saber duel.
Originally posted by Q99
Or in other words, he is without a doubt good enough to make it an actual duel. In armor, he lacks the endurance to keep it up for long, and even without armor Sidious is Sidious, but we are talking, "This is clearly a fight which Sidious is clearly going to have to use real effort on." Armor'll be harder than the Maul/Oppress fight. And Reborn would be a real challenge.
I'm not saying Sidious would blitz or one shot Krayt, but I've seen nothing from resurrected Krayt to suggest he can stand much of a chance against Sidious. Sidious TK is far greater, his speed is greater, his strength is greater, his lightning is far greater, and his skill is greater, having mastery over all seven forms (Clone Wars Episode Guide). Where exactly does Krayt stand on even terms with Sidious? What combat-oriented powers does he have to make up for such a difference between him and Sidious?
And IDK why you insist on bringing up Sidious' duel with Maul and Savage, considering that Sidious held back a lot against them. He initially had them at his mercy with the force, effortlessly having them pinned to a wall despite their efforts to break free. Both Maul and Savage individually rival Krayt in TK. Maul has even shown to consistently overpower the likes of Obi Wan with the force almost as easily as Dooku can.
Originally posted by Q99
Sure, Sidious is the best, but the whole 'no-one can even stand up to him,' stuff is silly considering there's, like, 3 people who can stand up to him in his own era, and even Maul+Oppress is able to make it last a minute or two.
Yoda was Sidious' only true equal of his era. The other one who can stand up to him, Mace Windu, needed an augmentation to match him in physicality.
And Maul+Savage didn't make it last a minute or two; Sidious made it last a minute or two.
Originally posted by Q99
Oh, he'd use the conventional forces against those.
What do you mean by "conventional forces?" You mean like stormtroopers? Anakin soloed the entire jedi temple with just conventional forces. Conventional forces were also used against the jedi on Geonosis.
Originally posted by Q99
This is more of an, "Late game, Krayt's forces manage to corner Palpatine on a planet," situation.
Yeah, Palpatine, with his unparalleled foresight, wouldn't expect such an attack, nor would he be prepared for it. It's just that simple.
Originally posted by Q99
A very good number of Krayt's sith are the level of combat-experienced Jedi masters, and there are some that are the level of RoT Sith.
Who are the level of RoT sith other than maybe Krayt and Wyyrlok?
Originally posted by Q99
Conversely, while Palps has a few impressive individuals, the majority are simply fallen Jedi with little to no extra training or adepts trained by the same, of which only a few were shown to be non-chumps. In each organization, there tends to be 2-3 that stand out (Mara Jade, Jerec), but the majority are *very* low level. Even Emperor's Hands are often not combat capable- Roganda Ismaren was purely a spy-assassin and wouldn't qualify to be a Sith by One Sith standards.Some of the ones he picked had specifically minimal training (just to fill a specific role), and he often gave recruited force sensitives *no* training- the Imperial Guards were picked to have high force potential but zero force-specific training.
I think you are underestimating Palpatine's force sensitives just because they weren't trained to be sith by RoT standards. Jerec was said to rival Vader in sheer power. Then there was his shadow guards who were individuals powerful enough to give SK trouble. I'm pretty sure he'd find use for them if Krayt decided to launch a direct attack against him.
Originally posted by Q99
Palpatine kept power out of dark sider's hands for a reason.
He kept power from Vader, and Vader has demonstrated far more destructive power than Krayt has, so what does that have to do with anything? Krayt and his sith didn't know majority of Sidious's secrets/power either.
Palpatine keeping power from them, does not mean they are weaklings. Some of them were knowledgeable enough to use powers such as force drain.
Originally posted by mikemikeer
By whimpering and complaining, do you mean outing you as a PT fanboy, destroying your pitiful arguments, and making you crawl back into your hole until the next thread is made? If so, you are correct.
Yes that time you destroyed my arguments by saying Krayt would own Dooku because he once sent a message to force users across the galaxy. lol
Now go back and join your wife in watching some more CIS and Law and Order, or better yet, some more RL trials that are being televised, so you can sharpen your skills as a lawyer.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes that time you destroyed my arguments by saying Krayt would own Dooku because he once sent a message to force users across the galaxy. lolNow go back and join your wife in watching some more CIS and Law and Order, or better yet, some more RL trials that are being televised, so you can sharpen your skills as a lawyer.
As opposed to Dooku would win because he's a "celebrated swordsman" rofl. I don't need to sharpen my skills as a lawyer when dealing with the incompetent. Run along, little boy.
It might, especially since, IIRC, Krayt didn't have full control over his empire, a large portion still served Fel.
Fairly small. It's on a map. Basically the part that was the Imperial Remnant during the time of the NR/Alliance, became the Fel Empire. A few small pockets were held by the Alliance Remnant. And then everything else- including territories that were not explored/not colonized during Sidious's time- is all Krayt's.
And what is the difference in tech besides their tie-fighter equivalent?
Turbolaser technology is noted to have improved. Shields are better. I think engines are a bit faster. Even during the series, the Imperious class rolls out, which is faster/stronger/higher firepower than any ship it's size ever.
Also, IIRC, The Ultimate Visual Guide implies that Palpatine purposely did not have shields installed on tie fighters because the number of them and pilots for them were so unlimited that he found them as expendable. Not much much the same with Krayt's force users. While Krayt's empire wasn't just limited to force users, he would still have to choose very wisely on using them.
You do realize Krayt has a vast force of shielded conventional pilots too?
Like, these Sith fighters won't be going on their own. He can deploy a supporting force not far in size from the opposition... only his non-force using pilots are in better craft than their opposition, and due to having shields, probably on average more skilled too due to longer careers.
But as Lucien and Tempest said, we need more statistics on Krayt's empire to properly debate this.
We have both a map showing what territories are his, and mentions during the comic of what's his and not.
Furthermore, we don't even know which empire would hold control over which territory, which would matter. Or are we assuming for the sake of this thread that it's two separate galaxies (with two Coruscants, for example)?
I think we'd have to assume two.
I'm definitely more impressed by Sidious coming back after having his entire body incinerated, which is how Cade made sure that Krayt could never come back. So while Krayt has ways of bringing himself back to life through mean in which Sidious probably didn't, I would feel more threatened by an enemy who can come back even after having his body completely destroyed.
Via clone, rather than some extraordinary force power.
Anyone with Essence Transfer can do that.
(Hah, we're talking at a level as if essence transfer is some common, easy technique... but it's merely a prerequisite of what Krayt does)
And you have to remember that Palpatine's own strength in the dark side, which was far greater than Krayt's, was what was killing his already sabotaged clone bodies.
Yea, it was killing his clone bodies. What did Krayt do when he had a failing body? He used the force and his knowledge to heal up all the damage it had accumulated, both from literal internal conflict with living Vong organisms and massive trauma.
If Sidious had Dark Transfer, he wouldn't have had the problem with his clone bodies... which were only failing in the first place because they're biologically weaker clones, showing one of the big problems with that method.
It doesn't matter. You suggested that Sidious wouldn't be able to use his mind fogging abilities on Krayt and his sith because they are dark siders, and I gave you examples of dark siders having their minds clouded by the dark side. The dark side can be used against other dark siders, therefore there is nothing to suggest that Palpatine can't use his mind fogging abilities against his enemies on account of them being dark siders.
False chain of logic. He used an individual mind fogging technique against individuals he was in proximity with. He fogged the Jedi as a whole by unbalancing the force. Unbalancing the force isn't going to fog the minds of Sith.
He kept power from Vader, and Vader has demonstrated far more destructive power than Krayt has, so what does that have to do with anything? Krayt and his sith didn't know majority of Sidious's secrets/power either.
Vader was the full Sith apprentice, he learned large amounts of Sith secrets. Not like the other chump darksiders.
And... Krayt's force drain *did* do a number on Abeloth so his offense is rather good, he doesn't do a ton of flashy stuff besides, but he's defended against people who do. Cade's been known to toss small starships as projectiles and block giant explosions with his force shields, and Krayt stopped his TK.
I'd also think a lot of the Sith knowledge both had would overlap. I mean, Krayt collected plenty of knowledge from RoT sources, and they're all based on original Sith teachings. He spent a century and a half gaining knowledge, *including* studying Palpatine's.
Palpatine keeping power from them, does not mean they are weaklings. Some of them were knowledgeable enough to use powers such as force drain.
But, I mean, most of them were *demonstrated* to be weak.
Here's a quote from Wookiepedia about some of the Empire's Force Adepts:
A group of Imperial Force Adepts were deployed on Bespin along with Darth Vader when Tyber Zann, Urai Fen and IG-88 tried to escape from the floating city with a store of Tibanna gas.Two others groups of those adepts were stationed on Coruscant. The first group with their leader, a Master Force Adept, faced Tyber Zann as he raided Sidious's Imperial Museum. The second group fought Silri and her rancor as well as Urai Fen. All of these groups were defeated however.
Two groups. One lost to a Nightwitch and a non-force user, the other lost to Tyber Zann, non-force using human criminal... who, no, did not have IG-88 with him any more, and that included that group's *master*.
The Inquisition was said to be the strongest of the dark side organizations in the Empire, and a partially-trained Kyle Katarn killed 7 of their best. Jerec was powerful (but, notably, specifically denied the Sith training that Vader got), but even the lesser ones he killed were fairly stand-out among Inquisitors in terms of performance.
Later on his 'Dark Side Elite' had a strong, noticeable tendency to fall rapidly to any of Luke's students.
Like I've said, you've got a few somewhat impressive individuals, but the major of them are used as cannon fodder by Palpatine, and trained accordingly. Palpatine clearly never expects most of them to do much except kill failed padawans or smoke out stronger foes for Vader or maybe one of his hands to take down. Or in the Inquisition's case, use numbers to overcome stronger foes (Three of the Inquisition's *leadership* went after Arden Lyn. She killed one and badly wounded another despite having just been awoken from stasis).
I bet there's maybe a half-dozen that one can find on Wookiepedia with actual feats of any impressiveness to their name, and by general performance, most Inquisitors, let alone others (again, the Inquisition noted as being the strongest of them), aren't even a match for average rank-and-file Jedi/Sith from real organizations.
On the ships, here's a bit of description of the Pellaeon class Star Destroyer, the most common capital ship in the Krayt Empire:
"The Pellaeon-class was considered one of the most powerful warships in the galaxy and was noted as having unmatched weapon systems and starfighter components. With its sleek outline, it presented less of a target to potential enemies, while at the same time optimizing its shield protection.
The forward-sloping superstructure of the Pellaeon-class also gave the main gun batteries excellent vantage points, more so than on the Star Destroyers of the previous centuries.
The class had slightly more armament than the older Imperial II-class Star Destroyer. The Pellaeon-class also possessed an interdiction field, capable of pulling ships out of hyperspace."
Most of this is from Legacy issue 0, which I have so I can confirm the information. So, newer guns, more optimized shields, better fighters, it's pretty much better across the board.
Also note the Interdiction field- they don't have to rely on separate vulnerable interdictors like the GE does, their ships of the line can help trap ships in systems. A notable strategic edge.
And then the Imperious' are to the Pellaeon what the ISD-2 is to the ISD-1. The Imperious was a bit longer, had larger thrusters, and new, more efficient power generation, meaning better weapons and especially shielding.