Krayt's Sith Empire vs. The Galactic Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
But it actually took some time to do so.

We've been over this before. It took time because Sidious was deliberately courting battle; he gave the brothers and the audience a preview of what would have happened had he sought a quick kill before any of them ever drew their sabers.

Originally posted by Q99
Remember, this was brought up because we're talking about 'Sidious assassinating Krayt.'

Meaning that, if it takes awhile, then reinforcements show up.

If Krayt can hold out as long as they did, reinforcements would arrive. If it took, say, twice as long as those two did, pretty reasonable I'd say, then a bunch more aid would arrive (probably, say, 20~ no-names plus 2-3 inner circle members).

Comparing Krayt to Maul and Opress only damages your argument. If Sidious is going to assassinate Krayt, he's not going to court battle nor will he pull his punches. I'm not saying he'll ragdoll Krayt with the same ease he did Opress and Maul, but you're the one making a comparison between these two scenarios.

Originally posted by Q99
I thought you were arguing that in-armed Krayt would die *fast*, which is what I'm objecting to.

My knowledge of Krayt is far too limited to determine how long he'd last against Sidious with any real exactitude. All I know is that the best feats you've offered in his defense aren't enough to persuade me that he's the Emperor's peer. That doesn't mean that he's fodder for Sidious either, a la Obi-Wan or Kit Fisto.

Originally posted by Q99
Personally I'd say I have, at least with Reborn Krayt. If you take someone who's post-RotS Obi Wan level in sabers, then give two *major* upgrades (after *just the first of which* he was considered a major powerhouse by Luke and sparked Jacen's fear so much he became Caedus), you're very near the top. Dooku's only about one tier above Kenobi IMO.

Or to put it another way, don't take my word for it, take Luke and Jacen's.

The extent of these "upgrades" is what I question. Luke obviously considered Krayt powerful, but that alone doesn't mean he's on par with Sidious unless that is somehow the benchmark by which Luke measures power. And I don't recall Caedus fearing Krayt's personal abilities so much as fearing what Krayt might do to the galaxy were he in a position to direct its future.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

I've already told you that Krayt has a legitimate shot of winning this thread

👆 Concession at last accepted.

Oh, how times change.

We've been over this before. It took time because Sidious was deliberately courting battle; he gave the brothers and the audience a preview of what would have happened had he sought a quick kill before any of them ever drew their sabers.

Didn't one of the creators actually say that the reason they lasted longer than the Jedi council members is because they were more skilled?

When both of them were there sabers drawn, he didn't have the opportunity to just quick kill them. He had to split them up first.

The extent of these "upgrades" is what I question. Luke obviously considered Krayt powerful, but that alone doesn't mean he's on par with Sidious unless that is somehow the benchmark by which Luke measures power.

Alright, one, we have a pretty clear benchmark of his base power- he's one of the stronger Clone Wars Jedi. Not, like, the strongest of course, but top 10 pretty solidly, I'd say. We've got him benchmarked against Anakin and Obi-Wan, after all.

Two, he then spent 30 years+ doing Sith training. This gave him obvious much greater knowledge of the force, then his experiences with the Vong pushed his drive and focus to new levels, and that is further confirmed by his showing against Abeloth, which makes Luke speak to him in terms of Krayt + Him forming the balance in the force. Not Sid's tier at this point, but powerful. Really powerful, both in description and deed.

Three, armed with Muur's knowledge and experience with Cade's technique, and forced by his own death, he obtains one of the holy grails of sithdom which even the most powerful Sith have tried and failed at. And aside from figuring out the technique, he found the experience itself gave him great understanding of the force. Combined with this, he also removes the Vong symbionts, which has been shackling his force power and making him spend effort to fight them (though with some advantages in exchange), so his full potential is released at the same time he achieves a new knowledge of force understanding. He gains not only Dark Transfer, but Shatterpoints as well, and just becomes more powerful overall.

This is basically a 'Vader's burns are healed,' type moment for him. For all that he outshines every member of the Lost Tribe of the Jedi easily, and capable of fighting the Abeloth, that was still him held back.

Which I guess leaves the question- just how many tiers do you think there are between Obi-Wan and Sidious?

Exact equals? I'm not claiming that. However, I would say Plagueis is in Sidious's tier, as is Yoda, as is perhaps a few others. It's not like Sidious is alone up there even if he is the highest in his tier, and this is a guy Luke spoke to as an equal and who pioneered a new level in one of the more difficult areas of force study, one that Plageuis, Palpatine, and Vader all spent decades on with less success.

And I don't recall Caedus fearing Krayt's personal abilities so much as fearing what Krayt might do to the galaxy were he in a position to direct its future.

But, he feared Krayt doing this during his lifetime- his daughter was part of the vision, and not, like, when she was old.

He didn't fear Krayt taking over 80 years later, he didn't even see that. He feared Krayt taking over 60 years early, in his time, and he wanted to marshall power to prevent that.

Originally posted by Q99
Didn't one of the creators actually say that the reason they lasted longer than the Jedi council members is because they were more skilled?

Filoni said Savage lasted longer than the Council; he never attributes it to superior skill. (Which would be downright silly.)

Originally posted by Q99
When both of them were there sabers drawn, he didn't have the opportunity to just quick kill them. He had to split them up first.

He had to split them up? Not at all, unless you think he was somehow barred from using his Force powers.

Sidious actively courted battle and if he wanted a quick kill, he could have just pasted them against the tasteful Mandalorian windows like bird shit and there'd have been nothing either of them could have done to stop him.

Originally posted by Q99
Alright, one, we have a pretty clear benchmark of his base power- he's one of the stronger Clone Wars Jedi. Not, like, the strongest of course, but top 10 pretty solidly, I'd say. We've got him benchmarked against Anakin and Obi-Wan, after all.

Ares834 has already questioned his defeat of Anakin and his loss to Obi-Wan means nothing to me. I'd need to see the scans to make a determination since I'd strongly believe Obi-Wan, as one Jedi to another, would have pulled his punches.

Originally posted by Q99
Two, he then spent 30 years+ doing Sith training. This gave him obvious much greater knowledge of the force, then his experiences with the Vong pushed his drive and focus to new levels, and that is further confirmed by his showing against Abeloth, which makes Luke speak to him in terms of Krayt + Him forming the balance in the force. Not Sid's tier at this point, but powerful. Really powerful, both in description and deed.

No one's denying he's badass. Lumiya wrecks Luke in LOTF, doesn't mean I'd put her on Luke's level or Sidious's, for that matter.

Originally posted by Q99
Three, armed with Muur's knowledge and experience with Cade's technique, and forced by his own death, he obtains one of the holy grails of sithdom which even the most powerful Sith have tried and failed at. And aside from figuring out the technique, he found the experience itself gave him great understanding of the force. Combined with this, he also removes the Vong symbionts, which has been shackling his force power and making him spend effort to fight them (though with some advantages in exchange), so his full potential is released at the same time he achieves a new knowledge of force understanding. He gains not only Dark Transfer, but Shatterpoints as well, and just becomes more powerful overall.

This is basically a 'Vader's burns are healed,' type moment for him. For all that he outshines every member of the Lost Tribe of the Jedi easily, and capable of fighting the Abeloth, that was still him held back.

We've been through this, too. Krayt harnessing death is not alone indicative of parity with Sidious. Andeddu mastered death and Wyyrlok handed him his ass, even though Wyyrlok lacked such knowledge. You see what I mean?

Originally posted by Q99
Which I guess leaves the question- just how many tiers do you think there are between Obi-Wan and Sidious?

Many. Lucas outright says Obi-Wan can't even compete with Sidious; I firmly believe Sidious would ream Obi-Wan was utterly as he did Fisto, Kolar, and Tiin. And that's just ROTS Sidious.

Originally posted by Q99
Exact equals? I'm not claiming that. However, I would say Plagueis is in Sidious's tier, as is Yoda, as is perhaps a few others. It's not like Sidious is alone up there even if he is the highest in his tier, and this is a guy Luke spoke to as an equal and who pioneered a new level in one of the more difficult areas of force study, one that Plageuis, Palpatine, and Vader all spent decades on with less success.

I would agree that Plagueis and Yoda are in Sidious's tier. That doesn't mean Krayt is.

Originally posted by Q99
But, he feared Krayt doing this during his lifetime- his daughter was part of the vision, and not, like, when she was old.

He didn't fear Krayt taking over 80 years later, he didn't even see that. He feared Krayt taking over 60 years early, in his time, and he wanted to marshall power to prevent that.

There again, that says nothing about Krayt's Force power and martial skill.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd need to see the scans to make a determination since I'd strongly believe Obi-Wan, as one Jedi to another, would have pulled his punches.

Pulled his punches? Fvcker ripped his arm off! haermm

Cut off. I've posted the link several times, but according to the artist Kenobi cut his arm of not ripped it off with the force.

The Tempest

Ares834 has already questioned his defeat of Anakin and his loss to Obi-Wan means nothing to me. I'd need to see the scans to make a determination since I'd strongly believe Obi-Wan, as one Jedi to another, would have pulled his punches.

Let me frame the scenario:

There's a Tuskan war band heading to a moisture farm. A fallen Jedi is at the helm.

If Obi-wan loses, baby Luke dies.

I do not think he can get more serious, and it'd seem odd to let master-of-defense Kenobi to let himself get smacked in the face on purpose in that situation. And he did use his force powers (force defend/powers being an area the future Krayt was not yet good at) to win fairly brutally.

Many. Lucas outright says Obi-Wan can't even compete with Sidious; I firmly believe Sidious would ream Obi-Wan was utterly as he did Fisto, Kolar, and Tiin. And that's just ROTS Sidious.

So you seriously think that Obi-Wan, who beat Anakin, was three or more tiers lower?

Do you just think that everyone, Dooku and Anakin and such, was a couple tiers below Sidious too?

Just because Sidious would without a doubt beat Obi-wan- though, I will mention he was certainly stronger than the council members. Heck, you saw his fight against Maul and Opress- doesn't mean he's 29 tiers above. It only takes about two tiers to badly outmatch someone. People normally rank Dooku only a tier or two below Sidious, and Dooku's only a tier above Obi-Wan.

There again, that says nothing about Krayt's Force power and martial skill.

I'm really not sure how you can be missing the information on Krayt's force power and martial skill in all this...

Jacen sees himself losing to an oncoming threat so decides to get more power to face the oncoming threat. I don't think people do that when they don't think the threat is powerful and dangerous.

And of course, the demonstrations of his force power against Abeloth and reinforced by Luke's comments therein.

Originally posted by ares834
Cut off. I've posted the link several times, but according to the artist Kenobi cut his arm of not ripped it off with the force.

Going by that, what most likely happened was he force-pushed to open the guard and cut the next instant. A force push was involved, it's just the art makes it look like he blew it off with TK.

Originally posted by Q99
Let me frame the scenario:

There's a Tuskan war band heading to a moisture farm. A fallen Jedi is at the helm.

If Obi-wan loses, baby Luke dies.

I do not think he can get more serious, and it'd seem odd to let master-of-defense Kenobi to let himself get smacked in the face on purpose in that situation. And he did use his force powers (force defend/powers being an area the future Krayt was not yet good at) to win fairly brutally.

Again, I'd need to see the scans to make that determination.

Originally posted by Q99
So you seriously think that Obi-Wan, who beat Anakin, was three or more tiers lower?

Do you just think that everyone, Dooku and Anakin and such, was a couple tiers below Sidious too?

Just because Sidious would without a doubt beat Obi-wan- though, I will mention he was certainly stronger than the council members. Heck, you saw his fight against Maul and Opress- doesn't mean he's 29 tiers above. It only takes about two tiers to badly outmatch someone. People normally rank Dooku only a tier or two below Sidious, and Dooku's only a tier above Obi-Wan.

What constitutes a tier is subjective. Essentially, my estimation is that Obi-Wan pretty much has no shot ever of taking out Sidious on one-to-one terms in a fair fight. And he lasts only as long as Palpatine allows him to.

As far as Dooku goes, I think Dooku hovers around mild irritation to mild threat with Sidious. But there again, he can't win.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm really not sure how you can be missing the information on Krayt's force power and martial skill in all this...

Jacen sees himself losing to an oncoming threat so decides to get more power to face the oncoming threat. I don't think people do that when they don't think the threat is powerful and dangerous.

And of course, the demonstrations of his force power against Abeloth and reinforced by Luke's comments therein.

Because you're drawing conclusions from broad and vague implications.

Jacen never concludes that the Dark Man would flatten his candy ass with lolz Force 'splosion. He foresees that the unidentified person will assume a role on the throne of balance and direct the course of the galaxy. Given that Palpatine did that without laying waste to every Jedi in the galaxy mano-e-mano, I see no reason to conclude Krayt assuming a role of influence would require that he be a top tier badass.

As far as Krayt's performance against Luke is concerned, I'm more impressed with Luke keeping her at bay.

I've only read up on Luke's and Krayt's fight against Abeloth on wookieepedia, and it was just stupid. Basically, it was a wrestling match between Luke and Abeloth, where Luke was holding her down while Krayt was sticking his hands through her chest, force draining her. And they were fighting as spirits in some spirit realm. lol

Is that really how it went?

Pretty much.

Anything you read about "dripping Force essence" isn't fanfiction, that was all Denning.

Crucible is worse.

Originally posted by Q99
So you seriously think that Obi-Wan, who beat Anakin, was three or more tiers lower?

Do you just think that everyone, Dooku and Anakin and such, was a couple tiers below Sidious too?

Yes.

Theres Obi-Wan level.
<Anakin is about here.
Dooku-level, a decided tier above Kenobi.

Then theres those who are above even Dooku like........ Krayt, Exar Kun or the Barsen'thor or whatever.

Then theres Sidious level.

Crucible's ending tried, really, really hard to come off as deep or philosophical, but really just encapsulated a shitty novel.

I mean, it's an incredible letdown when your publisher's statement promises some major reveal of the very workings of the Force, only for Luke to randomly have a cliche "epiphany", summarized in a single paragraph, with no relevance or meaning whatsoever.

What constitutes a tier is subjective. Essentially, my estimation is that Obi-Wan pretty much has no shot ever of taking out Sidious on one-to-one terms in a fair fight. And he lasts only as long as Palpatine allows him to.

Obi-Wan wouldn't be able to handle Krayt's higher forms either. Krayt starts out close in sabers, and has way, way more force powers and abilities.

Doesn't mean that if you didn't give Obi-Wan multiple big upgrades the story wouldn't change.

As far as Dooku goes, I think Dooku hovers around mild irritation to mild threat with Sidious. But there again, he can't win.

Mild threat is a whole buncha tiers to you, though?

I'm trying to figure out how you place tiers.

And let me put it another way- If there's many tiers between Obi-Wan and Sidious, then each upgrade of Krayt's isn't a one-tier boost (one-tier boost is for using my tiers). Each boost is a multi-tier increase if your tiers are so small.

Q99, are you a male or female?

Sure, why not?

Sorry if my question came off as rude. I didn't mean it in a bad way or anything. Your gender is unspecified, but then so is mine.

Not that it matters. I was just curious.

There are no mini-tiers in this. Obi-Wan is at least 2 tiers below Sidious, in regular tiers. He'd get stomped.

Krayt is something like one and a' half tiers below Sidious, lol.

I'd say Krayt is something like one and a half to two tiers above Obi-Wan 🙂 (Depending on when we're talking about)

I'd say Reborn Krayt is pretty damn close to at least ROTS Sidious.

lol