ROTS Mace and Yoda vs. Zone Anakin & Sidious

Originally posted by Zett

I can't agre here. Anakin couldn't lost the edge, because he had no edge. And Dooku's words from the movie are quite different, but the situation is also different.

In novel:
Anakin has the edge from the very beggining of the duel, and Dooku needs to provoke him. He did it, and Anakin lost the edge. Then Sidious encourages him to use his anger, and Dooku is doomed.

In movie:
Dooku had an advantage from the beggining, and he was able to fight both - Kenobi and Skywalker - at once. In the book he wasn'tt. Then, after he defeated Kenobi, he still had an advantage over Anakin. So - as was planned - Dooku encourages Anakin to use his anger. And then, Anakin had the edge.

I'm not arguing about which version of events was the final one. Obviously the movie version is. Although the novel is based on the original story and screenplay of the film, and was apparently line edited by Lucas himself.

What I'm arguing is the definition of Zone Anakin from the novel. A definition which has to be consistent with everything else in that very novel.

Here's another extract when he's using his Zone state, which proves he has no fear in that state. Let's see if KT will finally concede the point. It comes right after "The Dragon" tries to whisper doubts and put fear again into Skywalker, but Skywalker entering his Zone state is no longer effected by it:

"But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in it's flame."

^Unfortunately for Skywalker and his limbs though that Dragon had sunk it's teeth deep into Skywalker before his fight with Kenobi. His fear of losing Padme was running deep in his veins. And we know Fear that Skywalker can't ignore, and can't control only makes him weaker/less powerful.

Here's another extract when he's using his Zone state, which proves he has no fear in that state. Let's see if KT will finally concede the point. It comes right after "The Dragon" tries to whisper doubts and put fear again into Skywalker, but Skywalker entering his Zone state is no longer effected by it:

From RotS: "A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too".

According to this statement fear makes him stronger, if he loses restraints, so you don't really have a case here. You need to understand that Anakin's clarity is in no way about being in control while angry, on opposite it is about losing control entirely. He stopped thinking of consequences and just gave in to his anger entirely.

"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."

This statement shows that he doesn't care at all about Dooku's superiority. No intelligence, simply go forward and dominate. That's exactly what he did against Kenobi. He kept coming with no remorse or mercy. He didn't care when Kenobi gained positional advantage he mindlessly jumped at Kenobi like he mindlessly jumped at Dooku. The only difference is that this time it didn't work.

All this talk about fear is speculation. It's never clear when fear empowers or hampers. I can bring a few other examples where fear was driving Force users to do insane things.

Moreover, there is still objective evidence that Anakin wasn't hampered during fight with Kenobi. Remember that Nick Gillard gave Anakin level 9 combat prowess for the fight with Kenobi specifically, which is on level with Sidious, Windu and Yoda. He, also, mentioned how Anakin leveled up by turning to dark side.

Arhael! Where the heck did you just come from? I'll respond to your post later with extracts from the novel. But if you read over the previous page ive shown Dooku's taunt in the novel makes him confused and afraid, and makes him lose his edge over Dooku.
Also the post above shows his fury was burning away his fear. And on the previous page the final extract of his zone state specifically notes that this wasn't a "mindless rage" like he was in on Tatooine getting revenge for his mother.
In the Making of Revenge of the Sith -Gillard just says Anakin is a 9 for this movie. Not that he's only a 9 as a Sith. If you or KT want to follow Gillards ratings thats fine with me, because Gillard makes Skywalker equal to Mace.. Which is what KT is denying and why this has all started. Gillard also states the reason Kenobi and Skywalker were equal is because they know each others styles so well so cant get past each others defenses.

Finally I think the Mortis trilogy proves there is some kind of Zone state for Skywalker which makes him more powerful than any other Jedi/Sith.

Just as I stated.. just as dooku stated.. fear can be a weapon for the DS and it doesn't only hinder him.

Dooku didn't state that. Sidious didn't state that.

No one told Skywalker to keep his fear and use it as a weapon. And it only hindered his performance. Whilst in his best performance his fury just burnt through his fears.

I've given all the quotes. Just read them if your interested. If not stop speculating.

The line says... the fear in his heart can be a weapon 2. That contradicts everything you've been trying to say.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The line says... the fear in his heart can be a weapon 2. That contradicts everything you've been trying to say.

Stop reading selectively. I've quoted all the multiple verses which support my view, taken directly from his Zone state, while your just going to ignore them all and cling to the one sentence that on it's own would support you.

Your just too biased to even have a conversation with.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There seems to be some confusion in the other thread regarding ZonAkin which I'll just address here now.

People are claiming that Skywalker's fear makes him stronger due to this being the first paragraph of the Death of Count Dooku chapter in the ROTS novel:

[b]"A Starbust of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself, Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too."

Now just a page before this fear clearly hinders his performance:

"but Skywalker had lost his edge; a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn;"

^So for fear to aid him he clearly needs that clarity of mind anyway. And can't be in a state where he's "fighting to control his own emotions."

But how does Fear make him more powerful anyway? By being a path to anger and fury, which is the real weapon of the darkside (when not hindered by internal conflict).

We know this from Yoda's line in TPM "Fear is a path to the Darkside. Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to suffering."

And the ROTS novel goes onto say about "the fear" Zone Anakin is using:

"And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy."

^So it's his fury that's powering him, and he's actually just eliminating his Fear by replacing it with fury. Which is made even more clear with this line:

"But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in it's flame."

It's then made clear that his Zone state is not unleashing anger in a "mindless state":

"On Aargonar, on Jabiim in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter;but here, now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell."

^ So in his Zone state there's no internal conflict. His mind is as clear as a Crystal Bell, and he uses fury, with the terror and rage being "In the fight," instead of "in his head."

Then after he becomes Vader, he thinks he's eliminated all his fear (because even though fear is a path to the darkside, it's not in and of itself a weapon, and does not do Skywalker or Vader any good).

But then just before his fight with Kenobi(after killing the sepratists), he feels the fear in his head once more, deep rooted into him, which he doesn't want, because it does him no good. It only hinders him. And by a large amount, judging by how Dooku handled him for a moment after putting Fear and Doubts back into his head. [/B]

You just typed all that to further prove the point.. You even cited new quotes that say he turned FEAR into FURY... In other words.. fear is the path that leads to fury.. angery.. hate.. etc etc... Fear is like the wood for a fire. To say fear doesn't add anakin in anyways is totally false.. in fact you've proven just how it does actually.

Now.. I'm still waiting for you to post ANY TK from Anakin NOT ON MORTIS and AIDED BY AN AMP THERE.. where he easily crushes somebody of the calibur of Yoda and Mace... You can't stop pretending that Anakin can call upon said amp/power whenever he wants as he has never done so. You said zone anakin can force crush Yoda and Mace.. now show him using TK to do so when not on Mortis

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You just typed all that to further prove the point.. You even cited new quotes that say he turned FEAR into FURY... In other words.. fear is the path that leads to fury.. angery.. hate.. etc etc... Fear is like the wood for a fire. To say fear doesn't add anakin in anyways is totally false.. in fact you've proven just how it does actually.

facepalm

And your selective reading is at work again.

The passages makes it perfectly clear that Fear itself NEVER empowers him. In fact it weakens him against Dooku.

It's only in his Zone state that he burns through his fears and replaces it with fury. And only in his Zone state when the terror and rage are "Out there, in the fight.." and NOT "in his head.."

If you think he honestly burnt through his fear of losing Padme, the fear that was stated to have been rooted in his very veins, then your more deluded than I thought.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Now.. I'm still waiting for you to post ANY TK from Anakin NOT ON MORTIS and AIDED BY AN AMP THERE.. where he easily crushes somebody of the calibur of Yoda and Mace... You can't stop pretending that Anakin can call upon said amp/power whenever he wants as he has never done so. You said zone anakin can force crush Yoda and Mace.. now show him using TK to do so when not on Mortis

You still crying about him overpowering the Son and Daughter? LOL

You never asked "outside of Mortis", so stop changing your demands every second you get owned. You asked this:

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Please show me ANYTIME.. JUST ONCE... That Anakin used this alleged TK AWESOMENESS you speak of to beat anybody on the level of Mace or Yoda... if you can't.. then you need to be quiet about this bullshit you speak. Anakin has never TK'd anybody on the level of these two.. EVER.

And I gave it you. You were owned on your own thread KT. Keep crying about it. And admit you have little to zero knowledge, facts or proof on anything to do with SW. Especially the SW EU.

lol this still going on?

Give it up, Darth Power. He won't listen.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Still mad about getting owned on your Sidious throwing the fight theory huh?

That's one of my fav XD

this again? Anakin isn't the only Jedi who can enter...the zone...or a zone...
reading about this zone Anakin is just hilarious,down right laughable!!!

And for the record I don't care what anybody says, Sids threw the fight, how else was he gonna sell his deception.
When Mace beat him,Sids that is.... Sids knew he couldn't beat Mace.

Cause if he did why would he try to take Mace out of the equation w/Annie's help of course...
because Mace was the real threat,Yoda wasn't no threat,he beat Yoda...

many times have I watched those scenes, the answer is clear,Mace beat Sids...Sids beat Yoda
Anakin,zone or super had his chance to bring balance he failed...
making him zone or super is not gonna solve anything...

he still looses this fight no matter how you spin it zone,super, son, daughter,father, hell brother
who cares as long as Mace weilds Vaapad,...pre suit -peak suit won't win either...
just give it up already Zone Anakin looses...

Force Crush?...Mace isn't a stranger to this TK move either ask Grievous how that chest feel?
TK didn't stop at Anakin /Vader...Mace has a TK assault of his own...

Nobody's listening....zone ,super,brother, Anakin is over rated and hyped past the eye can see...
pre and peak suit is up there too, lightning resistant ?Vader ? Now that was funny...real funny...lol..

Never tires? that was the punch line right there!!! lol....
he was no longer the hero with out fear,he was the hero with fear...
fear of loosing Pade'me'
fear of not being strong enough,..........still ain't strong enough
fear of bringing balance to the Force.
fear of doing what's right...

I agree with KT, the fear thing was explained...which still leads to the Dark Side...
Vader couldn't TK Obi Wan,
He won't even come close to TK -ing Mace or Yoda...
if he couldn't rival Yoda as a swordsman,what makes zone,super,or brother Anakin rival Mace?

Originally posted by juyomaster34

When Mace beat him,Sids that is.... Sids knew he couldn't beat Mace.

Nope, Sidious threw the fight. After Dath Plagueis it's even more obvious.

Originally posted by Zett
Nope, Sidious threw the fight. After Dath Plagueis it's even more obvious.

What happened in Darth Plagueis to make us think Sidious threw the fight against Mace?

“A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer to one’s will.
“But the Force cannot be treated deferentially,” he added as a few final tendrils sparked from his fingertips. “In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself.”
Sidious watched the last of the brush fires burn out, then said, “Will I eventually be physically transformed?”
“Into some aged, pale-skinned, raspy-voiced, yelloweyed monster, you mean. Such as the one you see before you.” Plagueis gestured to himself, then lowered himself to the ground. “Surely you are acquainted with the lore: King Ommin of Onderon, Darths Sion and Nihilus. But whether it will happen to you, I can’t say. Know this, though, Sidious, that the power of the dark side does not debilitate the
practitioner as much as it debilitates those who lack it.” He grinned with evil purpose. “The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of.” - James Luceno, Darth Plagueis

Adding the fact from ROTS: TVD:

Unmasked by deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's true face is revealed to the world. But for the Senate, teh Jedi could not damage Palpatine's reputation

And quotes from the movie:

Power, unlimited power!

Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda. Now you will experience the full power of the dark side.

It's clear now. Because of Darth Plagueis those quotes has a new meanings.

^ That just means that Mace wasn't winning the FL fight simply because Sidious was the one with the scarred face.

It's also supported by the novel which states the deflected FL only empowered Sidious.

Plus the novel states the FL was "beyond Vapaad," and given Lucas's commentary about Sidious feigning weakness, I've always felt that in an all out one on one scenario, Sidious would take a good majority against Mace.

But still not sure about him throwing the fight. He seems to have genuinely lost the Saber battle (in that scenario at least), at which point Mace could have killed him before the FL even began.

Well, as Luke noted, Juyo is becoming useless in a longer fight. Being aided by other Masters, Mace had the advantage in the first part of the duel. Sidious couldn't blitz him.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Sidious was even greater with his force powers, then with saber. On neutral ground, without the aid of Masters, he probably would defeat Windu with both - saber and force skills.

For me, for you, and for many others, the part when Sidious is using force lightning, and then is faking weakness, is obvious. But now, it should be pretty obvious for everyone.
Despite this, it looks like Sidious is much stronger when he fought Yoda, then when he fought Windu.

And one last fact: in TCW, we can see, that many characters are more succesfully with two sabers. Especially when they are facing a few opponents.
But normally, most of them have just one saber. And Sidious had two from the start. So it looks like Sidious wasn't forced by Mace to use another lightsaber. And in a long duel, Jar'Kai probably would be much more succesfully.

Luke noted Ataru would be useless in a longer fight....

I remember that in Plagueis....don't know how I forgot it....
the FL theory,...Zett, I agree

I agree....many characters were successful with two sabers.
From watching the movie and reading the novel again Sidious does look stronger when he fought
Yoda,than he fought Windu.

FL is one of a Sith's most powerful and most feared weapon.
that is what I meant about a Sith,...a true Sith is never defenseless.

Anakin had (for a moment) imo tried to believe that Palpatine was not a Sith Lord and looked at
Sids as that loving caring uncle that befriended him and watched over him.

IMO this is what led to Mace's vulnerability and defeat.
Mace saw the end of the Jedi and the Republic
Where Anakin saw a helpless,dillusional old man who can help him save Pade'me

Arresting him was not the question,Mace saw that
he saw that Sids had power over courts,the Senate, everything
He was honestly too dangerous to be alive....he was also too dangerous in death,

I believe if Mace had killed Sids he would return to Byss inhabit a new body or bodies and
attack the Republic in mid confusion....

while confused the Republic,The Jedi ,a good number of them would be eradicated....