ROTS Mace and Yoda vs. Zone Anakin & Sidious

Originally posted by Zett
Well, as Luke noted, Juyo is becoming useless in a longer fight. Being aided by other Masters, Mace had the advantage in the first part of the duel. Sidious couldn't blitz him.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Sidious was even greater with his force powers, then with saber. On neutral ground, without the aid of Masters, he probably would defeat Windu with both - saber and force skills.

For me, for you, and for many others, the part when Sidious is using force lightning, and then is faking weakness, is obvious. But now, it should be pretty obvious for everyone.
Despite this, it looks like Sidious is much stronger when he fought Yoda, then when he fought Windu.

👆

Originally posted by Zett
And one last fact: in TCW, we can see, that many characters are more succesfully with two sabers. Especially when they are facing a few opponents.
But normally, most of them have just one saber. And Sidious had two from the start. So it looks like Sidious wasn't forced by Mace to use another lightsaber. And in a long duel, Jar'Kai probably would be much more succesfully.

I think we would need proof that Sidious is most adept at Jar Kai to use that as a reason that he wasn't performing at his best in the Saber fight against Mace.

Besides which he used just one Saber against Yoda, yet Yoda still failed to defeat him.

Originally posted by Zett
Well, as Luke noted, Juyo is becoming useless in a longer fight. Being aided by other Masters, Mace had the advantage in the first part of the duel. Sidious couldn't blitz him.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Sidious was even greater with his force powers, then with saber. On neutral ground, without the aid of Masters, he probably would defeat Windu with both - saber and force skills.

Yeah, since he had a massive advantage for like what, thirty seconds?

The masters were a complete non-factor in Windu's fight against Sidious. They could've practically not been there and it would've made no difference. Sidious obviously wouldn't have been able to blitz Windu as he did the other masters; he's above everyone of them by a significant margin [as we evidently saw]. I doubt the fight would've gone differently even without the masters.

I do agree that in a neutral scenario, with both fighters having, say, three meters of separation between them, Sidious would win 7/10 against Windu. He won due to Vaapad and Shatterpoint, and due to those two only. If it weren't for these uncanny abilities, Sidious would've no doubt defeated him.

@DP
According to the script, Yoda disarmed Sidious from his saber.

(...)yet Yoda still failed to defeat him.

Yeah, that's true. Bu on the other hand, Sidious didin't defeat Yoda. Yoda was superior swordsman, and disarmed Sidious from his saber. Sidious then used his force powers, and throw out Yoda's saber from his hand. In fact, probably none was able to parry Sidiou's FL with a lightsaber. Epecially after his power boost after his duel with Windu. So Yoda was forced to defend himself with his own force powers. And they were totaly equal.
I would say, that Yoda "lost" because of the fact, that it wasn't neutral ground. Yoda's goal was to kill the Emperor, while Palpatine's goal was to stay alive.

If Yoda had Vaapad and Shatterpoint as Mace did, I think he would've defeated Sidious, too.

^
No. His Ataru was everyting, that he needed to defeat Sidious in saber fight. Also, against full power of Palpatine's lightning, Windu doesn't stand a chance even with his shatterpoint or Vaapad. Palpatine's energy was just too great. And after duel with Windu he only became more powerful.

Originally posted by Zett
^
No. His Ataru was everyting, that he needed to defeat Sidious in saber fight. Also, against full power of Palpatine's lightning, Windu doesn't stand a chance even with his shatterpoint or Vaapad. Palpatine's energy was just too great. And after duel with Windu he only became more powerful.

What makes you say he became more powerful after his fight with Windu? Nothing ever suggests that.

Also, Sidious used lightning against him and although he clearly put in a lot of effort into pushing it back to Palpatine, I guarantee he [Palps] didn't want his face to be deformed by his own lightning... Never was Palpatine not trying to kill Windu. The only time he faked was when Anakin was already there; he knew he wouldn't die with him in the room. Everything that happened prior to Anakin's arrival, was Palps vs. Windu, all-out.

Again its Ataru,that was useless in longer fights,Luke has no skill in Juyo .
It was Juyo that took the masters down and it was Juyo that kept Sids in the duel.

scipts are known to change so I don't really believe that what you said.
ok Yoda disarmed Sids,so what...
Sids disarmed Yoda...
did Yoda reclaim the high ground or any neutral position no,he retreated because
all his Force power and reserves were spent
he was tired,which also proves Ataru's fatigue and not good in long duels
And he lost....

@Petrus

Originally posted by Zett
“A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer to one’s will.
“But the Force cannot be treated deferentially,” he added as a few final tendrils sparked from his fingertips. “In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself.”
Sidious watched the last of the brush fires burn out, then said, “Will I eventually be physically transformed?”
“Into some aged, pale-skinned, raspy-voiced, yelloweyed monster, you mean. Such as the one you see before you.” Plagueis gestured to himself, then lowered himself to the ground. “Surely you are acquainted with the lore: King Ommin of Onderon, Darths Sion and Nihilus. But whether it will happen to you, I can’t say. Know this, though, Sidious, that the power of the dark side does not debilitate the
practitioner as much as it debilitates those who lack it.” He grinned with evil purpose. “The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of.” - James Luceno, Darth Plagueis

Adding the fact from ROTS: TVD:

Unmasked by deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's true face is revealed to the world. But for the Senate, teh Jedi could not damage Palpatine's reputation

And quotes from the movie:

Power, unlimited power!

Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda. Now you will experience the [b]full power of the dark side.

It's clear now. Because of Darth Plagueis those quotes has a new meanings. [/B]

I don't see how that means he was faking. It only means that, according to Plagueis, Mace wasn't winning because Sidious deformed himself with his own lightning... Pretty strange logic, to be honest.

And I don't see how that means he becomes more powerful. It's only said that in order to summon lightning properly, he has to be on the receiving end. You're really gonna argue Sidious's lightning wasn't "proper" before his fight against Windu?

^
Yeah

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I see what you are saying @ Petrus I will explain
imo if Sidious has foreseen his duel with Mace or some random Jedi then he doesn't know if he
lives or dies so due to the unknown this is where the deception come in.

1the deception or seduction of Anakin to the Dark Side thus his Apprentice.
2 the deception of feigning weakness to spur Anakin to make Anakin believe that
Anakin was acting only in self defense.

The transformation that Plaguies spoke of...
I remember Darth Bane was also talking about in the book of sith and the Bane novels.
Revan spoke of this same transformation...also.

if I am close or somewhat close or wrong then,correct me
I'm going back to read the FL theory and cross read other sources......

And the Promise of Power to save Pade'me from certain death...I almost forgot.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah, since he had a massive advantage for like what, thirty seconds?

That's not a short time for a Saber fight tbh. And for him to blitz 3 Masters before Mace can even react, and then go on to force Windu back for another 20 seconds hardly speaks well for Windu's alleged superiority in Sabers.

Originally posted by Petrus
The masters were a complete non-factor in Windu's fight against Sidious. They could've practically not been there and it would've made no difference. Sidious obviously wouldn't have been able to blitz Windu as he did the other masters; he's above everyone of them by a significant margin [as we evidently saw]. I doubt the fight would've gone differently even without the masters.

The 3 Masters forced Sidious into a close up Saber brawl right from the start. You can't say that's not a factor in an all out. Especially looking at Sidious's other fights, he seems to start off with Force attacks from a distance- Sidious vs Yoda, Sidious vs Maul brothers.

And even in a pure Saber fight, if those first 30 seconds of Sidious being on the winning end, was just Sidious vs Windu, then the end of that 30 seconds may have been a result in Sidious's favor. Just maybe.

Originally posted by Petrus
I do agree that in a neutral scenario, with both fighters having, say, three meters of separation between them, Sidious would win 7/10 against Windu.

👆

Originally posted by Petrus
He won due to Vaapad and Shatterpoint, and due to those two only. If it weren't for these uncanny abilities, Sidious would've no doubt defeated him.

Yes but even with those abilites, he was not Yoda's equal Imho. And even Yoda failed to defeat Sidious later on.

Originally posted by Petrus
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It's possible he became more powerful after fighting Windu. The ROTS novel does state the pain of the deflected Lightning was empowering him. And Darth Plageuis does state that being on the receiving end of the FL would increase his power in that ability.

Sidious solos.

Mace is really a non factor as the novel makes it clear that without his vaaped amp he would have died with the other masters and we all know how sidious vs yoda went down.

^
It's a joke, isn't it?

If you take the novelization very literal, he's right.

Mace was never a "non-factor".

He's at least on par with Dooku who clearly wasn't a "non factor" to Yoda- Sidious's equal.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's not a short time for a Saber fight tbh. And for him to blitz 3 Masters before Mace can even react, and then go on to force Windu back for another 20 seconds hardly speaks well for Windu's alleged superiority in Sabers.

Well, it took time for Windu to fully submerge into Vaapad and embrace the darkness and fury of his opponent, which presumably made him as fast [or almost as fast] as Sidious eventually. He was obviously surprised and taken aback by the sudden and instantaneous murder of the three Jedi Masters. He was completely unprerared, to be fair.

Are you saying Windu's superiority in the sabers department compared to the other Masters isn't made clear?

The 3 Masters forced Sidious into a close up Saber brawl right from the start. You can't say that's not a factor in an all out. Especially looking at Sidious's other fights, he seems to start off with Force attacks from a distance- Sidious vs Yoda, Sidious vs Maul brothers.

True. That's why I said that if they fought with three meters or more of separation between them, Sidious would win approximately 7/10.

But I still don't see how the Masters factor at all in this scenario. Even without the three Masters there, Mace would've approached Sidious in close-quarters; hardly more than three meters of separation between them and hardly with sufficient room for Sidious to launch an attack with the Force rather than with sabers. Judging by the setting of the beginning of the fight, even if the Masters weren't there, it would've started with a lightsaber duel.

And even in a pure Saber fight, if those first 30 seconds of Sidious being on the winning end, was just Sidious vs Windu, then the end of that 30 seconds may have been a result in Sidious's favor. Just maybe.

Maybe, just maybe. But there's really no way to determine that.

Yes but even with those abilites, he was not Yoda's equal Imho. And even Yoda failed to defeat Sidious later on.

No, I never said he was Yoda's equal. I was simply stating the reasons for his success against the Dark Lord.

[QUOTE]It's possible he became more powerful after fighting Windu. The ROTS novel does state the pain of the deflected Lightning was empowering him. And Darth Plageuis does state that being on the receiving end of the FL would increase his power in that ability. [QUOTE]

I thought you agreed that what's said on 'Darth Plagueis' isn't proof that being on the receiving end increases power.

Originally posted by Petrus
Well, it took time for Windu to fully submerge into Vaapad and embrace the darkness and fury of his opponent, which presumably made him as fast [or almost as fast] as Sidious [B]eventually. He was obviously surprised and taken aback by the sudden and instantaneous murder of the three Jedi Masters. He was completely unprerared, to be fair.[/B]

Completely unprepared?

He knew he was off to arrest "The Sith Lord," and was warned by Skywalker about how powerful he is.

Originally posted by Petrus
Are you saying Windu's superiority in the sabers department compared to the other Masters isn't made clear?

Of course Mace is superior to those other Masters. By miles.

I'm just pointing out Sidious could possibly have bested Mace in the Saber fight within those first 30 seconds if not for those 3 Masters. Lasting 20-30 seconds is much much better than getting blitz like the others.

And if the one on one fight starts off with some distance in an open arena, allowing Force Powers to also come into play, then Sidious's chances of winning against Mace become very high Imo.

Originally posted by Petrus
No, I never said he was Yoda's equal. I was simply stating the reasons for his success against the Dark Lord.

It was due to Vapaad, Shatterpoint(agree with you there), but also to do with the circumstances of the fight Imho.

Circumstances are everything. You can have Kenobi struggling against Maul/Opress individually, but then under the right circumstances defeat the 2 of them combined.

Originally posted by Petrus
I thought you agreed that what's said on 'Darth Plagueis' isn't proof that being on the receiving end increases power.

Just agreeing it's a possibility, as the ROTS novel also hints at the same, when Mace is deflecting the FL back at Sidious.

Would also explain why Yoda failed to overpower Sidious's FL, after disarming him of his Saber, but Mace seemed to have Sidious at his mercy after disarming him. (Or it could just be because Sidious was faking his FL weakness against Mace).