ROTS Mace and Yoda vs. Zone Anakin & Sidious

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Jeez it's like talking to a brick wall.

He did use TK in the novel, which proved useless against Skywalker because he was so powerful in that moment.

Which means when the novel is talking about how much more powerful Skywalker is than Dooku, it's talking about Power in the Force, and not a radical increase in his Djem So skill.

Someone's still butt hurt about just how powerful Zone Anakin is.

Oh you mean Nick Gillard? If he's a canon source to you then that's fine. Because he puts Skywalker, Windu, Sidious and Yoda all on par in Sabers. All level 9's.

Like you've admitted yourself he completely replenished himself. Which means even if he began the fight fresh, Skywalker battered through his defenses once, then if Dooku replenished himself, he would just batter through them again, EVEN QUICKER, since Skywalker was only getting stronger.

Further according to the novel it wasn't the 2 of them who tired Dooku in the first place, but only Skywalker who tired him.

Oh you carrying on with this rubbish again, which isn't ONCE stated as the reason for Dooku's loss. Not once.

Makashi's style isn't meant to overpower "Head On." The only reason that's even mentioned is because Dooku wasn't aware of what style Skywalker was using until that point. Your knowledge of the different styles is very limited, which is the reason you keep coming out with this nonesense.

Makashi is the best fencing form. Period.

He was more powerful in the force. Stover makes that perfectly clear when he attempts to use TK on Skywalker to no avail, and even writes "his Knowledge of the Force has become a Joke."

Now are you not getting tired of being owned on this point, and just repeating the same old rants which have all been addressed a thousand times?

So you concede he NEVER used TK to overpower Dooku did he? Thus he wasn't beyond Dooku in the force and never showed he was. Beating somebody in a saber duel.. doesn't mean you can crush them in the force or were even superior in the force. If you don't have any scans showing Anakin crushing Dooku in the force shut the **** up about it and acting like he did.

That scene isn't in the movie.. and thsu we'll argue how you like to argue and say that is non canon. It was never shown in the movie... but even if we accept that... Deflecting TK objects being thrown at you.. ISN'T showing you are stronger in the force than another. I brock L throws a chair at me and I hit it away with my hand... or even another chair.. does this prove I'm stronger than Brock? Think about it shortbus.. deflecting a TK object away from you doesn't mean you're more powerful. in the force.

Gillard is more of a canon source than you isn't he DP? He stated that Dooku underestimated Dooku. Period. Somebody so involved in the star wars medium and the making of these shows and movies is beyond you as a canon source. So we'll just go ahead and take his word on it. Thus part of the reason Anakin won wasn't because he overpowered dooku in the force (already crushed that theory) but because he underestimated Anakin

Just to clarify this point... what was anakin's finishing move on Dooku.. was it with his saber and striking him down or did he TK dooku and crush him? Maybe you have a copy of the movie I don't have.

Further, it doesn't matter WHO was taxing dooku's reserves.. what DOES mater is that his force reserves WERE taxed and he woudln't have as much to call upon when they were being taxed agian as the fight continued. YET ANOTHER reason why dooku lost that had nothing to do with being force inferior to anakin.

The novel makes it clear that Anakin powerful strikes were taxing dooku because of his style isn't meant to deal with such powerful blows. This is a canon fact. Sorry you beloved Dooku's style isn't good againt aggressive powerful attacks

Again answer this question... If me and Brock L fight eachother with bats.. and I KO him with my bat.. does that mean I'm stronger than him?

Lastly... some comments to other posts you've made to others...

Actually Mace got back into vaapad and the conducting loop INSTANTLY... this was in the canon narration of the novel when Sids fired his lighting at Mace.. he wasn't in vaapad and had let up when he had overpowered Sids.. then when sids fired it.. the novel says he got back into vaapad instantly... so no it doesn't take 10 or 20 or 20 seconds to do.

Lastly you said sith anakin wasn't more powerful because he had fear and you cited another reason. Actually FEAR IS a reason he was more powerful. As a DS they use fear to their benefit. In fact, dooku makes thi sclear in the movie... I sense fear in you and anger BUT YOU DON'T USE THEM. So anakin having more fear actually means he was able to use more DS power..making kenobi beating him all the more impressive.

^
How DP was calling it? Double standard?

You agree with Gillard, that Dooku underestimated Anakin, but you can't agree that Anakin was better and more powerful then Kenobi? And the fact, that Anakin and Mace are both level 9?

You agree with Stover's novel, that Makashi < Djem So, but you can't agree that Zonnakin >> Dooku?

Man, you're pathetic.

In my opinion Stover's novel is terrible source of people abilities.
For example, many people believe, that Yoda finally lost to Sidious. It's because of Stover's novel, but this isn't true.
Anakin vs Dooku is another story, I agree that Anakin never used the force against Count. I always agreed, that "Zonakin" was Stover's imagination and nothing more. but now, after "Mortis" episodes... Well, Anakins is really powerful in his "Zone" state.

And something about Anakin vs Windu. If I am asking myself, "what if Anaklin vs Windu?", then i always see this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9scpu4LAhU

And you know what KT? Creators of this game are better source of canon then your opinions.

Put him on ignore dude.

no double standard..

I never said Anakin wasn't more powerful than Kenobi when they fought... I've always maintained that Kenobi was just as good a duelist as Anakin.. knew him inside and out.. had the mental edge on anakin and was tactically superior than anakin. Those are the reasons he won and I've never said otherwise.

I've also never said Anakin wasn't a 9.. I've agreed he was a nine when he turned to the DS. Never said otherwise.

I've also said Zoneanakin isn't better than Dooku is sabers.. THAT IS HOW HE WON... He didn't overpower dooku with the force or TK crush him like DP is making out. he beat him with a saber move.. nothing more. Doesn't make anakin more powerful in the force than Dooku though does it? Just as my analogy shows.. if I beat The Big Show with a bat in armed combat.. doesn't mean I'm as strong as him. Simple logic that you clearly can't grasp.

And if Obi-Wan chops off Anakin's legs... doesn't mean he's as good a fighter as Anakin...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Put him on ignore dude.

Still mad about getting owned on your Sidious throwing the fight theory huh? your ass hasn't healed from that still? Geez.. see a doctor bud.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And if Obi-Wan chops off Anakin's legs... doesn't mean he's as good a fighter as Anakin...

actually it shows he's just as good a duelist when he's fighting anakin. There are reasons for it and styles makes fights. Kenobi has the style.. the mental edge.. the skill.. the patience.. to beat anankin as was shown. Doens't mean he's as powerful in the force per se or the potential of anankin.. but in a one on one duel.. he has shown he can win and carry the day.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I've always maintained that Kenobi was just as good a duelist as Anakin..

Ok, so you agreed that DS Anakin is level 9, Mace is level 9. Kenobi is level 8, so how can he be as good as Anakin and Mace?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Doesn't make anakin more powerful in the force than Dooku though does it?

He grew in power to a level beyond Dooku. That's why he won. He gains that power from the Force smarty pants. Not from his Djem So LOL

Originally posted by Zett

And something about Anakin vs Windu. If I am asking myself, "what if Anaklin vs Windu?", then i always see this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9scpu4LAhU

And you know what KT? Creators of this game are better source of canon then your opinions.

ROTS would have been so much better with that scene. We never once saw Anakin kill a Jedi. Windu would have been the ultimate one for him to kill.

^
Yeah, agree. As I remember, in the forst version of this fight Anakin fought Windu, while Sidious fought AK, ST, and KT. Maybe it was the best option. And jedi learned that Sidious is Palpatine from Kenobi.

Version from game is second or third? Fourth? Didn't remember.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He grew in power to a level beyond Dooku. That's why he won. He gains that power from the Force smarty pants. Not from his Djem So LOL

ROTS would have been so much better with that scene. We never once saw Anakin kill a Jedi. Windu would have been the ultimate one for him to kill.

Glad you didn't address the points I made where you were wrong about Vaapad and Anakin's fear... Next time know what you're talking about first so I don't have to correct you on those things.

Next... please then.. show me Anakin tooling Dooku with the force... what we saw is him beat him with his saber.. no TK.. no force lighting... no force manuever at all. He bested him in saber combat... If you have a deleted scene from the movie none of us have please post it. If not, you need to stop claiming Anakin beat dooku with the force and was more powerful than him. This was never shown to be true at all. What was shown.. is anakin beating a tired and over confident dooku in sabers ONLY>

Originally posted by Zett
Ok, so you agreed that DS Anakin is level 9, Mace is level 9. Kenobi is level 8, so how can he be as good as Anakin and Mace?

because he's as wise as master yoda per anakin.. Kenobi's mind is his greatest weapon. He remains calm under fire.. unlike anakin who is hasty and irrational at times. Kenobi is patient and disciplined. Anakin is not. Kenobi out smarted anakin and used his mental advantage to lure anakin into making a dumb move.. at which point he seized the opportunity. You don't have to be more powerful than somebody to beat them.. when you have other things going for you like Kenobi does.

^
I think, that we all agree, that Kenobi had mantal advantage over Anakin. Yeah, he was wiser, more experienced. And right, his mind is his greatest weapon. But let's be fair - technically, as a duelist, Anakin is better, stronger. Kenobi can't even dream about victory over people like Count Dooku or Mace Windu. And he's easier enemy for people like Ventress etc. then Anakin.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Glad you didn't address the points I made where you were wrong about Vaapad and Anakin's fear... Next time know what you're talking about first so I don't have to correct you on those things.

What you actually made a new point? I didn't notice, I just saw another rant of you going on about the same stuff.

You know nothing at all about the SW EU as you proved when you asked for proof that THE ONES are more powerful than Mace Windu 😂

I will read the rubbish you've written about Anakin's fear just for my own amusement, and then own you again on your own thread 😆

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Next... please then.. show me Anakin tooling Dooku with the force... what we saw is him beat him with his saber.. no TK.. no force lighting... no force manuever at all. He bested him in saber combat... If you have a deleted scene from the movie none of us have please post it. If not, you need to stop claiming Anakin beat dooku with the force and was more powerful than him. This was never shown to be true at all. What was shown.. is anakin beating a tired and over confident dooku in sabers ONLY>

Lol nice try at low balling Skywalker. But a complete fail. The novel makes it perfectly clear that Skywalker was just too powerful for Dooku. I know your butt hurt about this, but that's just fact, and it's certainly what the movie hint towards as well, with Sidious ordering Dooku's death, because he has a more powerful apprentice now.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Glad you didn't address the points I made where you were wrong about Vaapad and Anakin's fear... Next time know what you're talking about first so I don't have to correct you on those things.

Next... please then.. show me Anakin tooling Dooku with the force... what we saw is him beat him with his saber.. no TK.. no force lighting... no force manuever at all. He bested him in saber combat... If you have a deleted scene from the movie none of us have please post it. If not, you need to stop claiming Anakin beat dooku with the force and was more powerful than him. This was never shown to be true at all. What was shown.. is anakin beating a tired and over confident dooku in sabers ONLY>

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Actually Mace got back into vaapad and the conducting loop INSTANTLY... this was in the canon narration of the novel when Sids fired his lighting at Mace.. he wasn't in vaapad and had let up when he had overpowered Sids.. then when sids fired it.. the novel says he got back into vaapad instantly... so no it doesn't take 10 or 20 or 20 seconds to do.

Wow, your actually using evidence for once. This is a surprise.

Anyway Vapaad is a state of mind, I doubt he completely left that state while he was still confronting the Sith.

But fact is the first 20+ seconds of the fight had Mace on the defensive and unable to put Sidious down even with aid of other Jedi. In fact it's canonically confirmed that Sidious cut down those Jedi before Mace could even react.

Also Vapaad had it's limits. I'm glad you mentioned the Lightning scene, because that made it clear that "this was beyond Vapaad."

Also Zone Anakin wasn't even a complete Darksider yet, so I'm not even sure what your arguing here.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Lastly you said sith anakin wasn't more powerful because he had fear and you cited another reason. Actually FEAR IS a reason he was more powerful. As a DS they use fear to their benefit. In fact, dooku makes thi sclear in the movie... I sense fear in you and anger BUT YOU DON'T USE THEM. So anakin having more fear actually means he was able to use more DS power..making kenobi beating him all the more impressive.

Oh really:

?v=FvTa1vxmY3M

1:56

"I sense great fear in you Skywalker," is Dooku's observation of him, but he doesn't encourage that. He says "You have hate and anger but you don't use them,"

It's his hate and anger which he basically tells him will make him more powerful, if he lets go of his fear. This is 100% supported by the novel.

I knew for YOU to use evidence was a one off thing. I mean CRAP you couldn't even just quickly check a damn youtube video to check you had that right, because your so damn desperate to preach your own bull shit!

Here's the extracts from the novel which prove Skywalker's fear weakens him, but he let go of that in his Zone state. You can cry about how badly I've owned you again:

"but Skywalker had lost his edge; a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn;

^ Over here Skywalker felt afraid for a short time in his fight against Count Dooku, and that made him lose his edge. This passage also shows how much weaker Skywalker gets when he's conflicted and having to control his emotions (ahem.. Sith Anakin vs Kenobi anybody). It also proves that it wasn't DJEM SO which Dooku couldn't handle, as he's still using the same damn style, but Dooku's handling him at this point.

On Aargonar, on Jabiim in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter;but here, now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

^ This firstly shows the distinct difference between a mindless rage filled Skywalker and Zone Skywalker. As you can see his mind is very clear, and not conflicted at all when in his Zone state. And that it's not enough to just be a "mindless machine of slaughter," to achieve true power through rage.Now the next parts are interesting:

"I am Darth Vader, he said within himself.
The dragon tried again to whisper of failure, and weakness, and inevitable death, but with one hand the Sith Lord caught it, crushed away it's voice; it tried to rise then, to coil and rear and strike, but the Sith Lord laid his other hand upon it and broke its power with a single effortless twist.
I am Darth Vader, he repeated as he ground the dragon's corpse to dust beneath his mental heel, as he watched the dragon's dust and ashes scatter before the blast from his furnace heart, and you-
You are nothing at all.
He had become, finally, what they all called him.
The Hero With No Fear."

^ This was after he betrayed Windu. He was first conflicted, but the Emperor makes him feel better about his betrayal. He then accepts his Sith heritage, and apparently gets rid of his fear.

So basically If Sith Skywalker was more powerful than Jedi Skwyalker, then it could only have been at this point before the Temple Raid. Then lastly this:

He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his "Master" already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis's discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden...transformation.
A fatal transformation.
Everything was proceeding according to plan.
And yet...
He couldn't shake a certain creeping sensation... a kind of cold slimy ooze that slithered up the veins of his legs and spread clammy tendrils through his guts...
Almost as though he was still afraid...
SHE WILL DIE, YOU KNOW, THE DRAGON WHISPERED.
He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.
All things die.
Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel.
Now it's poison chilled him to the bone.
Even starts burn out.

^And this is complete proof. This was right after he muredered the sepratists, and just before he saw Padme and fought Kenobi. This proves right before his Kenobi fight, the Fear was back in him and effecting him in a horrible way. You know that same fear which made it easy for Dooku to fend him off. That same fear which makes the power of his anger pretty useless.

Not to mention we literally see him conflicted, screaming, while murdering the sepratists. As I showed before he can't fight properly when fighting his own emotions, which he clearly was doing at that point.

So KT that is what you call providing evidence, and coming from someone who knows what he's talking about.

That is my completel OWNAGE of you.

I'm sure you'll keep trolling though, because that's all you do. Sad.

Did you even read your quotes LOL

but Skywalker had lost his edge; a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn;

This actually doesn't help your argument one bit.. it actually support mine.. It says that fear FED his anger.. and anger fed his fear... It says nothing about fear making him weaker.. Is English your first language? Show me wher eit says fear makes him weaker..

Furthermore, this is in stark contrasts to what you've been arguing. YOu've argued that Skywalker used his DS emotions and that is why he was able to beat dooku... Yet this passage you thought helped you in this argument.. actually defeats you other argument. This passage seems to say that fear and anger actually aren't good for him in a fight. So do you care to retract your statement that anakin used fear and anger to beat dooku? You would then also have to retract your other view that Anakin became a 9 during his fight with dooku.. when in fact.. he did so (as I pointed out) when he became a sith and fought Kenobi. In the dooku fight what you presented says the opposite and he was still a 8. Did you say you owned me? LOL.

It's so funny to me that you think those quotes say that anakin being afraid or having fear hinder him... when they say no such thing.. Like literally don't say that.

Originally posted by NTJack0
Implying Anakin wouldnt just casually stroll though alll of Dookus force abilties regardless, he didn't need to tool Dooku with the force, his saber was enough.

he didn't show he could... so let's not credit anakin with feats he never exhibited. Simple

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Did you even read your quotes LOL

but Skywalker had lost his edge; a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn;

This actually doesn't help your argument one bit.. it actually support mine.. It says that fear FED his anger.. and anger fed his fear... It says nothing about fear making him weaker.. Is English your first language? Show me wher eit says fear makes him weaker..

Furthermore, this is in stark contrasts to what you've been arguing. YOu've argued that Skywalker used his DS emotions and that is why he was able to beat dooku... Yet this passage you thought helped you in this argument.. actually defeats you other argument. This passage seems to say that fear and anger actually aren't good for him in a fight. So do you care to retract your statement that anakin used fear and anger to beat dooku? You would then also have to retract your other view that Anakin became a 9 during his fight with dooku.. when in fact.. he did so (as I pointed out) when he became a sith and fought Kenobi. In the dooku fight what you presented says the opposite and he was still a 8. Did you say you owned me? LOL.

It's so funny to me that you think those quotes say that anakin being afraid or having fear hinder him... when they say no such thing.. Like literally don't say that.

You have a severe reading comprehension problems.

The fear feeding his anger which in turn fed his fear made him weak enough for Dooku to fend off without any trouble. Before that fear entered him, he was giving Dooku shit loads of trouble with his rage.

Notice how in both cases he's using Djem So! LOL.. I.e. it's not the power of Djem So that defeated Dooku LOL. It was the power of Zone Anakin alone.

The novel talks of "The Dragon" that whispers to him. Puts doubts and fear in him. It's only when he ignores the dragon, and lets his rage power him, (but with clarity, not in a mindless state) that he becomes Zone Anakin.

And just before his fight with Kenobi he feels the "Dragon's sting" more deeply than ever.

The passage also makes it clear that a conflicted Skywalker is the weakest Skywalker, and not close to "Pristine Clarity" Zone Skywalker.

So the Sith Anakin who faced Kenobi was not even close to Zone Anakin. He had Fear stung into his veins, and was more conflicted than ever.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
"I sense great fear in you Skywalker," is Dooku's observation of him, but he doesn't encourage that. He says [b]"You have hate and anger but you don't use them,"

It's his hate and anger which he basically tells him will make him more powerful, if he lets go of his fear. This is 100% supported by the novel.[/B]

100% agree here, but:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[b]"but Skywalker had lost his edge; a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn;

^ Over here Skywalker felt afraid for a short time in his fight against Count Dooku, and that made him lose his edge. This passage also shows how much weaker Skywalker gets when he's conflicted and having to control his emotions (ahem.. Sith Anakin vs Kenobi anybody). It also proves that it wasn't DJEM SO which Dooku couldn't handle, as he's still using the same damn style, but Dooku's handling him at this point.
[/B]

I can't agre here. Anakin couldn't lost the edge, because he had no edge. And Dooku's words from the movie are quite different, but the situation is also different.

In novel:
Anakin has the edge from the very beggining of the duel, and Dooku needs to provoke him. He did it, and Anakin lost the edge. Then Sidious encourages him to use his anger, and Dooku is doomed.

In movie:
Dooku had an advantage from the beggining, and he was able to fight both - Kenobi and Skywalker - at once. In the book he wasn'tt. Then, after he defeated Kenobi, he still had an advantage over Anakin. So - as was planned - Dooku encourages Anakin to use his anger. And then, Anakin had the edge.