Closing this soon. You guys are unbelievable.
Diana is not going to have any trouble lifting the hammer, and really, it should be enough to let her get the advantage over him.
Also, you guys are dangerously close to me just saying **** it, and banning Sacrifice. Common sense already dictates that it has to be taken with a grain of salt due to Superman being compromised, but no, It's like I'm talking to the ****ing wall over her.
Originally posted by Q99He broke her wrist by squeezing above her bracers. That's not using weak points, that's just using raw strength to break someone's wrist through indestructible bracers.
He broke her wrist... and wrists are more fragile than knees or ribs, if we're talking weak points.
And he came out of a crater clearly heavily favoring one side, holding his chest, and taking long strides.Haha, this is just ridiculous. He was just emerging through the crater and there was no mention of ribs breaking or limping like wonder woman mentioned of her wrist breaking twice. You are just speculating by one panel.
You're also acting like hitting weak points isn't a legitimate strategy. If she can hit weak points more than he can, and she can, and that's specifically part of her skill set, that counts.Its not much use for her in strength, at one point she punched him and he barely acknowledged it.
The bending over backwards you do here to not count what happens is pretty funny, you really do a lot of work to twist 'both sides hurt each other visibly' to only count for one side somehow.Untill the tiara toss, she only made him "slow down" for a moment. He was breaking her wrist and knocking her out like a child.
Sure, which is why Superman said Cheetah's punches were like 'Captain Marvel's.'Jiminez also had a werewolf incapacitate superman. He later explained that superman was weakened by cheetha's magic.
Funny, Diana's also magic.She was brought to life by gods. Cap's body is made by magic and he can even shape-shift by controlling the magic. Wonder Woman can't.
The clone Sinestro where she pretty casually broke a couple constructs of and still was just trying to negotiate with before he caught her in the last one and then Herc did his thing?Breaking some random construct means what now? She was entirely helpless and some random policemen came to her rescue.
Somehow, I don't think the last construct would've been the finishing blow after she'd just broken through multiple anyway.Of course it was. She wasn't able to free herself while he was choking her out.
Except, y'know, the multiple times she has. Like, I can think of at least four times....Name them.
Take a look at For Tomorrow, for example. A scenario where neither is bloodlusted or mind controlled, they slam each other through a mountain side and such... and neither is hurt by it.Where he wasn't even seriously taking the fight while she was determined to stop her? BTW he took the brunt of the attack, she didn't.
Tenth Circle, the controlled Superman and WW stalemate.Weakened superman due to days of deprived sunlight.
Sacrifice, well covered, both are going at full and both injure each other pretty heavily and then both go on to do other stuff, she takes on a trio of Alpha OMACs (the same level that gave J'onn and other strong heroes trouble) not more than an hour later and beats 'em.The only heavy injury superman got was from tiara, not from her attacks. The same writer had superman beat Replikon with the explicit powers of wonder woman, flash, J'onn and rest of JLA fairly casually when he was thinking rationally.
Checkmate ranks her durability at A-1, the same general category as they rate Superman's. She's more vulnerable to cutting obviously, but she can take hits quite well.Checkmate also rated Mr. Terrific the smartest being on earth ahead of people like Luthor and such. Suffice to say that I don't take it seriously. Superman has shrugged off attacks that have oneshotted wonder woman. Wonder Woman's durability is nothing compared to superman's. Even Rucka had her nearly killed by a nuclear reactor.
'Random showings' seems to include every single time they fight as well as in-characters opinions, from the authors Greg Rucka, John Bryne (writer of Man of Steel), Phil Jimenez, Christopher Moeller, Dwayne McDuffie, and Brian Azzarello, including in headline books under direct editorial oversight, and in Superman books, WW ones, JLA ones, and event ones.Haha, what? Byrne had her say that she can't win against superman, Jiminez had her say that he would kill her with two "blocked" attacks, Mcduffie flat out said that superman would beat wonder woman, Azzarello had superman bitchslapping her around etc. None of these writers have said that wonder woman can win against superman. You can't even cite writers correctly.
'
Non random showings' seems to be from... um... well, there isn't really an example of the two performing like you say he would, despite the commonness of their clashes.Like this?
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOnea.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOneb.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOnec.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOned.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOnee.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOnef.jpg
"I can't win against you in combat."
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Not really. Especially since at Wonder Woman's strength level, Mjolnir weighs nothing.I don't know if there's ever been an exact time given but Thor has fought practically every being in Marvel and I cannot recall a single instance where Mjolnir's powers have proven to be too slow to be effective. Even in moments when an opponent blasts Thor from point blank range etc.
If Mjolnir can block fire, why can it not block freeze breath? At this point, it is clear that Mjolnir can manipulate absolutely anything. The hammer has even created legitimate force fields outside of the barriers, whirlwinds, absorption and other defensive techniques.
What is this obsession with freeze breath? We've seen Diana break out of it in moments without Mjolnir. In this fight, she will be far more powerful.
Ok good point. Mjolnir weighs next to nothing.
But I still don't think it would block being froze. Otherwise Thor would have shown it or at least not got froze a few times. She can get out, but a second or two to Superman is eternity. He would have already gotten free hits.
Mjolnir adds power to Diana's strikes.
But anything exotic isn't instant (in the sense of Superman's time).
Mjolnir can block hv, but so can her bracers.
IMO, I would say it improves her just a little bit. But the multitasking ability combined with that cheap ass freeze breath I think she still goes down.
It depends what the OP meant by "OWAW Superman".
At his peak power levels in OWAW, when fully cutting loose, Superman would beat Diana badly, even with the hammer. Hell, he'd kill her even if she had Thor's physical stats stacked on to hers, and the hammer's other powers.
But you see, one of the main points of OWAW was that Superman couldn't access that kind of peak power except in extremis. Even after fighting the Probes with Doomsday, Superman's power levels went down when he fought DS later, IIRC. DS is as evil as you get, but he's still living and Superman has trouble cutting fully loose when it might involve killing. He was willing to kill in OWAW, but that still doesn't mean he can 'get it up' to 110% when a killing might be involved.
Long story short, Superman can win in theory, but you need to concoct a pretty extreme scenario for him to be able to make himself bring that kind of power to bear against Wonder Woman.
p.s. I'm just talking about Superman from the perspective of OWAW. I realize not all writers approached him the same way.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
It depends what the OP meant by "OWAW Superman".At his peak power levels in OWAW, when fully cutting loose, Superman would beat Diana badly, even with the hammer. Hell, he'd kill her even if she had Thor's physical stats stacked on to hers, and the hammer's other powers.
But you see, one of the main points of OWAW was that Superman couldn't access that kind of peak power except in extremis. Even after fighting the Probes with Doomsday, Superman's power levels went down when he fought DS later, IIRC. DS is as evil as you get, but he's still living and Superman has trouble cutting fully loose when it might involve killing. He was willing to kill in OWAW, but that still doesn't mean he can 'get it up' to 110% when a killing might be involved.
Meh, he pulled a lot of tricks he did during OWAW in Sacrifice, and was even more angry during the latter.
Toss in Mjolnir and she can definitely defend.
OWAW is high-end Superman, but aside from when he's sundipped, not in a 'nother league or something. And Mjolnir is a nice upgrade.
I go WW.
Originally posted by Q99
Meh, he pulled a lot of tricks he did during OWAW in Sacrifice, and was even more angry during the latter.Toss in Mjolnir and she can definitely defend.
OWAW is high-end Superman, but aside from when he's sundipped, not in a 'nother league or something. And Mjolnir is a nice upgrade.
I go WW.
Combine that to the explanation that to fully unleash, superman needs his mind free and I don't see how anybody can say that Sacrifice Superman=OWAW Superman.
Superman was oneshotting beings that shitstomped whole JLA and nearly killed wonder woman. He was another level than wonder woman alright.
I don't care who wins actually, its the rampant lowballing of what happened in OWAW that's laughable.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Sacrifice represents how strong Rucka thought an unleashed Superman would get. You can't use it as an example of how powerful OWAW Superman was.Superman WAS on a whole new level when he cut loose in OWAW.
Yea, a whole new, never-before-seen level.... and Sacrifice happened a few years after OWAW, and in Sacrifice he even did a lot of the same things he did in OWAW, like using heat vision while charging at Superspeed and using that to get into melee and etc..
At the very least, the levels were pretty similar.
Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he didn't, also he was irrationally angry. Just some months ago it was stated that Doomsday makes Superman weaker than usual.Combine that to the explanation that to fully unleash, superman needs his mind free and I don't see how anybody can say that Sacrifice Superman=OWAW Superman.
One, different Superman. Two, Doomsday pretty much defines several of the times he's held back the least. Three, Doomday was present at OWAW, so, y'know, doesn't exactly help as an example.
So yea, you can't see it because you always like you ignore what makes WW strong, no matter how silly it is. Standard transparent Abh bias, so let's move on.
Okay, now I'm making it a ruling, because people obviously can't leave well enough alone.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Great, so I have to clarify this again. I'm going to bookmark this post in future so that I don't have to repeat myself.Using the punch is fine, as long as you're using it in the proper context.
It (Sacrifice) can be used as an example of how strong he can be with less restraint. It can be used to show that Wonder Woman went up against a high herald that was operating at above average power, and not just survived, but actually held her own at times.
It CAN'T, be used as an example of him operating at his best, or close to it, though. And it's not just because of the mental capacity thing, but that's the easiest way of using it.
Originally posted by Q99That doesn't mean he was doing it in the same power level. In DOS his HV alone caused more damage than HV, Martian vision, Qwardian ring, Booster and Fire combined.
Yea, a whole new, never-before-seen level.... and Sacrifice happened a few years after OWAW, and in Sacrifice he even did a lot of the same things he did in OWAW, like using heat vision while charging at Superspeed and using that to get into melee and etc..
At the very least, the levels were pretty similar.Not at all, its a mod ruling now because you can't stop repeating it again and again.
One, different Superman.What different superman?
Two, Doomsday pretty much defines several of the times he's held back the least.And?
Three, Doomday was present at OWAW, so, y'know, doesn't exactly help as an example.Why not? Superman had conquered his fears at the end of Superman 175, they came back in Action 825.
So yea, you can't see it because you always like you ignore what makes WW strong, no matter how silly it is. Standard transparent Abh bias, so let's move on.And you make same silly points every time. Its a mod ruling now darling, no more BS from you.
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, a whole new, never-before-seen level.... and Sacrifice happened a few years after OWAW, and in Sacrifice he even did a lot of the same things he did in OWAW, like using heat vision while charging at Superspeed and using that to get into melee and etc..At the very least, the levels were pretty similar.
Comics don't make logical sense like that. You can't always reconcile the portrayals of different writers with some kind of coherent narrative timeline.
Superman was much more powerful when all-out in OWAW than he was in sacrifice because in OWAW he was one-shotting beings (probes) that before he himself couldn't beat straight-up, and that were taking on whole teams of heroes--including WW.
While Sacrifice doesn't necessarily show how a fight with an all-out Superman and WW would go down (on account of Superman not knowing his opponent), it does give us a good idea of the raw power level of an all-out Superman under Rucka. That Superman is clearly very powerful--more powerful than WW--but doesn't show the kind of overhwhelming raw power that all-out Superman has shown under some other writers. Remember, different writers will have different takes in this.
Originally posted by Epicurus
*bump*Profiled.
Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly, I never known Mjolnir to emit lightning bolts (or any energy) while blocking.
