Mandarin(w/o Rings) Vs Batman(w/o Gadgets) · Comic Book 'Versus' Forum

ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by Bentley
If not from my recent revelation that proved that Batman sucks at h2h, I'd be convinced by know.
Maybe the proof defending Mandarin exists, but apparently it's so evident that we should just shut up and accept it or we become apallingly stupid awesr
Wish Srank was around, at least he could be civil and make a point.

We shouldn't be relying on one feat where Harley makes Batman look like a complete tool for anything.

Let us know when Batman shatters steel or rends armor more durable than titanium regularly with his bare hands in his appearances and fights a foe like Iron Man evenly with H2H alone regularly. Key word of the day kids: regularly. If Mandarin used his bare hands to shatter steel once or twice ever, and fights guys like Iron Man evenly with H2H 1 out of 20 times but still with a veritable "David vs. Goliath" motif going, than I'd see why you might take such offense at having Mandarin's superior H2H being rammed down your throats. Suffice it to say, it's just that obvious.

The point was made. Than ignored by butthurt. Than covered up completely by a spiraling descent into base trollery per the plan. You've been on KMC long enough to see the pattern.

Batman-Prime Kryptonian Scientist

facepalm

ODG Find Your Own Fire

^ Your silence, as always, is much appreciated.

Batman-Prime Kryptonian Scientist

^you are not very bright, why waste my time on narrow minded, ignorant kids who can't grasp the smple facts presented to them? Twist the truth as much as you want, no one cares^^.

ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^you are not very bright, why waste my time on narrow minded, ignorant kids

Why indeed?

Congratulations, you have exceeded the upper limits of irony on the internet. 👆

Batman-Prime Kryptonian Scientist

Originally posted by ODG
Why indeed?
Congratulations, you have exceeded the upper limits of irony on the internet. 👆

Truth hurts, sorry for hurting your feelings, honestly.

ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Truth hurts, sorry for hurting your feelings, honestly.

Truth hurts your butt because you spoke whilst being completely uninformed about a comics subject. And I don't mind rubbing it in. You can beg for my attention and talk past me all you want -- which in and of itself, is an oxymoronic endeavor, but I recall already letting you know that I couldn't give a sh1t about you.

leonidas MWHAHAHAHA!

Originally posted by ODG
We shouldn't be relying on one feat where Harley makes Batman look like a complete tool for anything.
Let us know when Batman shatters steel or rends armor more durable than titanium regularly with his bare hands in his appearances and fights a foe like Iron Man evenly with H2H alone regularly. Key word of the day kids: regularly. If Mandarin used his bare hands to shatter steel once or twice ever, and fights guys like Iron Man evenly with H2H 1 out of 20 times but still with a veritable "David vs. Goliath" motif going, than I'd see why you might take such offense at having Mandarin's superior H2H being rammed down your throats. Suffice it to say, it's just that obvious.
The point was made. Than ignored by butthurt. Than covered up completely by a spiraling descent into base trollery per the plan. You've been on KMC long enough to see the pattern.

trolling? 😂

your dearth of evidence is called out, a differing opinion is expressed and THAT is what passes for trolling here now-a-days? 👆

you have a lot of trouble having a civil discussion at times. there is also the fact that if someone read your posts they'd be walking around with the impression that mandy goes around cracking IM's armor like an egg anytime they fight! nothing could actually be further from the truth of course. he's HURT tony through it, (as has classic ironfist) and the odd time he has actually done physical damage to it, but to say he REGULARLY shatters titanium mesh is such a gross overstatement as to be laughable. how many appearances does mandy have? How many times has he physically 'broken' the armor? 'shattered' it? i mean, damn, i get that you don't like people disagreeing with you, but stop spreading blatant falsehoods at least. the guy has superstrength (he casually tosses tony around in his armor with one hand like tony weighs less than a newborn) and yet we're supposed to be overly impressed because a skilled guy, with that kind of strength, can shatter steel? please. fist's strike was at least as impressive as anything mandy did. and we're supposed to pretend that tony's skill level is meaningless here? that his ability to DEFEND himself from the same strikes that hurt him is somehow irrelevant? because someone far more skilled than tony could never counter those strikes, or avoid them. that makes sense. i think mandy's longest h2h fight was against tony UNARMORED. in that force works xover iirc. tony took a brutal beating but lasted, what, 3 full pages and still wasn't ko'd? wanda maximoff just walked up and punched him in the mouth. psylocke kicked him in his face and put him in a hold before he proved too strong. and yet cuz he beat up some guys with chains (cap, bats, dd et al have feats that sh!t on that....) and has a couple showings where he hurt an unskilled tony (he used his rings to stun tony BEFORE hitting him in at least one of your scans, btw) we should just assume he is on a whole nother level skill-wise with no real fights AGAINST skilled opponents to base that conclusion off of ? physical stats matter a great deal, but apparently not so much to you. i get that he's skilled. MAYBE as skilled or moreso than the others. but to try and state that claim so definitively and then to tell anyone who doesn't see it that way that we're.......i'm sure you'll fill in the blank. that's just 😑

anyway, that's my last post on the subject. but trolling? trolling?? you do crack me up bunky. 😂

ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by leonidas
trolling? 😂
your dearth of evidence is called out, a differing opinion is expressed and THAT is what passes for trolling here now-a-days? 👆

Was I responding to you?

Seeing as how I've posted multiple scans showing how Mandarin has consistently fought Iron Man with his H2H from the 60s onward to present time, among other things, I don't know what dearth you're trying to imagine here. And again, not referring to you. So take your imagined slights elsewhere. It's the second time I've had to correct you: it should be obvious who that particular comment was directed at.

Originally posted by leonidas
you have a lot of trouble having a civil discussion at times.

I treat patent ignorance accordingly.

Originally posted by leonidas
there is also the fact that if someone read your posts they'd be walking around with the impression that mandy goes around cracking IM's armor like an egg anytime they fight! nothing could actually be further from the truth of course. he's HURT tony through it, (as has classic ironfist) and the odd time he has actually done physical damage to it, but to say he REGULARLY shatters titanium mesh is such a gross overstatement as to be laughable.

If you're going to be that particular about my terminology, I suppose "rending" is too strong a word. So I'll go with hurting him through his armor regularly.

Originally posted by leonidas
how many appearances does mandy have? How many times has he physically 'broken' the armor? 'shattered' it? i mean, damn, i get that you don't like people disagreeing with you, but stop spreading blatant falsehoods at least.

Just addressed. Although, coming from the guy who tried to strawman me repeatedly as if I were saying Mandarin completely transcends Immortal Iron Fist, I find your word parsing to be ironic, if not specious. By all means, is this an invitation for me to pick apart single words in your posts? Because I can make you look like even more of an a$$ already. Even though that's not the point of the discussion. Even though it's clearly your's. Because, let's face it. It's the only real avenue you've got left.

Originally posted by leonidas
the guy has superstrength (he casually tosses tony around in his armor with one hand like tony weighs less than a newborn) and yet we're supposed to be overly impressed because a skilled guy, with that kind of strength, can shatter steel?

When has he casually tossed Iron Man? Which... y'know, isn't exactly a lifting feat considering the armor usually weighs nothing. There's a reason he has historically carried it in a briefcase. It's super lightweight like cloth but super durable like titanium.

Originally posted by leonidas
please. fist's strike was at least as impressive as anything mandy did.

Classic Iron Fist? You do know that Tony was completely unharmed in the suit? Whereas, against Mandarin, Tony is harmed through the suit regularly?

Originally posted by leonidas
and we're supposed to pretend that tony's skill level is meaningless here? that his ability to DEFEND himself from the same strikes that hurt him is somehow irrelevant?

Well, yes. Because Cap and Iron Fist and Psylocke and Taskmaster and Black Panther and a whole bunch of people try to hurt Tony through the suit with barehanded martial arts and can't do sh1t. The only other martial artist who has, is Temugin.

Originally posted by leonidas
because someone far more skilled than tony could never counter those strikes

At this point you're just rambling incoherently. Speak English.

Bentley Seitei

Originally posted by ODG
We shouldn't be relying on one feat where Harley makes Batman look like a complete tool for anything.

I'm certainly not going to use Harley as an argument to convince other people, I just personally have a hard time considering Batman uber after that. Obviously, not an all defining showing, but I... Man, just let me dwell on it a bit 🙁

Originally posted by ODG
The point was made. Than ignored by butthurt. Than covered up completely by a spiraling descent into base trollery per the plan. You've been on KMC long enough to see the pattern.

I know people take bites at you often, but the frequent ad hominem does muddle your arguments from time to time. It can come off as unprovoked from a reader standpoint (I don't read every post here to know if people were trolling you in other threads).

Batman-Prime Kryptonian Scientist

Originally posted by leonidas
trolling? 😂
your dearth of evidence is called out, a differing opinion is expressed and THAT is what passes for trolling here now-a-days? 👆
you have a lot of trouble having a civil discussion at times. there is also the fact that if someone read your posts they'd be walking around with the impression that mandy goes around cracking IM's armor like an egg anytime they fight! nothing could actually be further from the truth of course. he's HURT tony through it, (as has classic ironfist) and the odd time he has actually done physical damage to it, but to say he REGULARLY shatters titanium mesh is such a gross overstatement as to be laughable. how many appearances does mandy have? How many times has he physically 'broken' the armor? 'shattered' it? i mean, damn, i get that you don't like people disagreeing with you, but stop spreading blatant falsehoods at least. the guy has superstrength (he casually tosses tony around in his armor with one hand like tony weighs less than a newborn) and yet we're supposed to be overly impressed because a skilled guy, with that kind of strength, can shatter steel? please. fist's strike was at least as impressive as anything mandy did. and we're supposed to pretend that tony's skill level is meaningless here? that his ability to DEFEND himself from the same strikes that hurt him is somehow irrelevant? because someone far more skilled than tony could never counter those strikes, or avoid them. that makes sense. i think mandy's longest h2h fight was against tony UNARMORED. in that force works xover iirc. tony took a brutal beating but lasted, what, 3 full pages and still wasn't ko'd? wanda maximoff just walked up and punched him in the mouth. psylocke kicked him in his face and put him in a hold before he proved too strong. and yet cuz he beat up some guys with chains (cap, bats, dd et al have feats that sh!t on that....) and has a couple showings where he hurt an unskilled tony (he used his rings to stun tony BEFORE hitting him in at least one of your scans, btw) we should just assume he is on a whole nother level skill-wise with no real fights AGAINST skilled opponents to base that conclusion off of ? physical stats matter a great deal, but apparently not so much to you. i get that he's skilled. MAYBE as skilled or moreso than the others. but to try and state that claim so definitively and then to tell anyone who doesn't see it that way that we're.......i'm sure you'll fill in the blank. that's just 😑
anyway, that's my last post on the subject. but trolling? trolling?? you do crack me up bunky. 😂

Don't waste your time, he is too stubborn to understand anything^^. Don't feed the troll.

ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by Bentley
I'm certainly not going to use Harley as an argument to convince other people, I just personally have a hard time considering Batman uber after that. Obviously, not an all defining showing, but I... Man, just let me dwell on it a bit 🙁
I know people take bites at you often, but the frequent ad hominem does muddle your arguments from time to time. It can come off as unprovoked from a reader standpoint (I don't read every post here to know if people were trolling you in other threads).

Even master martial artists can be tooled.

I'm not going to bother retracing who started flinging mud between me and leonidas, and when. Suffice it to say, I'm more concerned with discussing the facts of the issue and his behavior concerning said facts. I couldn't care less if he's offended at my belief that he's just completely ignoring the facts and that his strawmans are witless and inept. Argument =/= arguer. So I'll call out his arguments for what they are. He's not exactly earning the benefit of the doubt from me.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Don't waste your time, he is too stubborn to understand anything^^. Don't feed the troll.

Unlike this guy. Who can't help but lurk and offers absolutely nothing to the conversation but uncontrollable butthurt and the stench of anal leakage.

Golgo13 Senior Member

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So, has everyone come to the realization that Batman wins easily yet?

I think so. 😉

Batman-Prime Kryptonian Scientist

Originally posted by Golgo13
I think so. 😉

👆

cdtm Restricted

I suppose Mandarin isn't "that" impressive.

Iron Man may be a step up from Thor (Who isn't though?), but he's no Captain America.

Batman wins.

leonidas MWHAHAHAHA!

Originally posted by ODG
Was I responding to you?
Seeing as how I've posted multiple scans showing how Mandarin has consistently fought Iron Man with his H2H from the 60s onward to present time, among other things, I don't know what dearth you're trying to imagine here. And again, not referring to you. So take your imagined slights elsewhere. It's the second time I've had to correct you: it should be obvious who that particular comment was directed at. I treat patent ignorance accordingly. If you're going to be that particular about my terminology, I suppose "rending" is too strong a word. So I'll go with hurting him through his armor regularly. Just addressed. Although, coming from the guy who tried to strawman me repeatedly as if I were saying Mandarin completely transcends Immortal Iron Fist, I find your word parsing to be ironic, if not specious. By all means, is this an invitation for me to pick apart single words in your posts? Because I can make you look like even more of an a$$ already. Even though that's not the point of the discussion. Even though it's clearly your's. Because, let's face it. It's the only real avenue you've got left. When has he casually tossed Iron Man? Which... y'know, isn't exactly a lifting feat considering the armor usually weighs nothing. There's a reason he has historically carried it in a briefcase. It's super lightweight like cloth but super durable like titanium. Classic Iron Fist? You do know that Tony was completely unharmed in the suit? Whereas, against Mandarin, Tony is harmed through the suit regularly? Well, yes. Because Cap and Iron Fist and Psylocke and Taskmaster and Black Panther and a whole bunch of people try to hurt Tony through the suit with barehanded martial arts and can't do sh1t. The only other martial artist who has, is Temugin. At this point you're just rambling incoherently. Speak English.

you really have me befuddled, and the tangential replies are what drags these things into descending spirals. the 'mud-slinging' ironically began with comments like 'inept' and 'witless'. weird how things might get ugly from that.....i've been round here enough to (a) have a tough skin, and (b) know what you're like to debate against as we've had other go-rounds, but still.

anyway, no need to reply to my above. the relevant points remain--i say you have a dearth of evidence because, well, there is. he AT TIMES, damages tony. in the one where he hurts his arm he seems to be using a weak point in the armor as well. imo, the blow IF struck was as powerful as any mandarin did, and IF was putting a beating on him h2h before the final strike. it didn't ko tony, obviously, but it was certainly impactful. there is also the issue that tony lacks skill--an issue you don't seem to think matters for some reason i can't fathom and that are, imo, self-evident. factor in the notion that mandarin does NOT usually fight tony h2h but rather with his rings, (he's gone whole arcs where they don't engage h2h) and that tells us that even mandarin himself knows h2h isn't going to win him fights against tony very often, though obviously it can have an impact.

imo, we know mandarin is far more skilled than tony, and can hit hard enough to hurt him. that's it. we DON'T know if his skill far exceeds, if at all, the other top tiers because he has never fought anyone for any prolonged time, but we DO know that the others HAVE fought and defeated foes with similar striking power, if not greater. so the striking power isn't an issue, it's the skill that is employed to utilize it. if his strikes can be blocked or dodged (ie by cap's shield for one example, dd's or IF's agility and respective skills, for another) then the question is whether he is skilled enough to avoid getting his lights turned out by cap or the others. and the answer to THAT question in my mind is a resounding--i dunno. maybe, but maybe not. regardless, NOT definitively, as you seem to believe. i hardly think it is an egregious stance i'm taking nor did i couch said stance in anything resembling an aggressive nature to you.

i realize i back-tracked on my word that the last post would be my last, but the whole mud-slinging thing kinda stuck in my craw. if the trolling comment wasn't directed at me, 'pologies. maybe i'm getting defensive in my old age.

Jynocidus Sadly, you're the proof..

Batman stomps

ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, no need to reply to my above. the relevant points remain--i say you have a dearth of evidence because, well, there is. he AT TIMES, damages tony. in the one where he hurts his arm he seems to be using a weak point in the armor as well.

So I won't. Let's get to the facts. Mandarin doesn't strike weakpoints. He isn't Karnak. Every time he's used his karate against Iron Man, he hurts him through his armor, at the very least. Other times, he's ripping it up. Most of the time, Tony is running away from his blows or thinking outright that he won't survive too many more. No other martial artist, using H2H combat, can boast that sort of consistent performance. Only Temugin. Who is just a rip-off of Mandarin.

Originally posted by leonidas
imo, the blow IF struck was as powerful as any mandarin did, and IF was putting a beating on him h2h before the final strike. it didn't ko tony, obviously, but it was certainly impactful.

Nowhere is Tony even described as hurt during that fight with classic Iron Fist. He can get knocked around and be virtually unharmed. These facts are not mutually exclusive of each other. And that is basically what happened. In Tony's numerous fights against Mandarin, the same cannot be said. There is absolutely no comparing Iron Fist's performance with Mandarin's, beyond Iron Man suddenly judo tossing Danny rather ignominiously as he once did Mandarin.

Originally posted by leonidas
there is also the issue that tony lacks skill--an issue you don't seem to think matters for some reason i can't fathom and that are, imo, self-evident.

You can't fathom it because you won't accept how pointless it is. Tony Stark's lack of skill doesn't matter. Why? Because as Iron Man, he's fought a lot of master martial artists; Cap, Iron Fist, Taskmaster, Psylocke, Black Panther, etc. And none of them, I repeat, none of them, has hurt him through his armor with barehanded strikes -- he's just that durable. Only Mandarin and Temugin. Guys who can shatter stone and steel effortlessly with their bare hands and have torn his armor apart. These are things other master martial artists cannot do, and they've tried. They are, by simple implication, superior than other martial artists. There is no avoiding this.

PC Karate Kid was so off the charts because he could fight PC Superboy. PC Superboy's lack of martial prowess was meaningless. Why? Because no other martial artist could take on PC Superboy anyway, only PC Karate Kid. That's what made PC Karate Kid so superior. Because he was able to accomplish something so superior with his martial arts, that other top tiered fighters couldn't. Unless you want to sit there and convince me that PC Robin could beat the crap out of PC Superboy????

Originally posted by leonidas
factor in the notion that mandarin does NOT usually fight tony h2h but rather with his rings, (he's gone whole arcs where they don't engage h2h) and that tells us that even mandarin himself knows h2h isn't going to win him fights against tony very often, though obviously it can have an impact.

These are nothing but restatements of facts that aren't making a point. Mandarin has used his karate in most of their fights. There are times he uses his rings. Sometimes he doesn't. But when he doesn't, it's rather obvious his karate is inhumanly strong and dangerous enough to send Iron Man packing. And no other martial artist, other than Temugin, can do that. There's a reason why. Because they are more skilled.

ODG Find Your Own Fire

Originally posted by leonidas
imo, we know mandarin is far more skilled than tony, and can hit hard enough to hurt him. that's it.

And that's all you really need to know because many other martial artists, who are also more skilled than tony, cannot hit hard enough to hurt him. Cap, classic Iron Fist, Taskmaster, Psylocke, Black Panther, etc.

Originally posted by leonidas
we DON'T know if his skill far exceeds, if at all, the other top tiers because he has never fought anyone for any prolonged time,

False absolutist nonsense. You obviously choose to backhandedly dismiss Mandarin's career against other martial artists with your arbitrary quantification of "prolonged fights," but that's rather meaningless. Mandarin has overwhelmed Psylocke, Cap, Black Widow, Hellcat, etc with his karate. If Mandarin was superior to them by another level, as all his other exploits make it obvious, his fights with these other martial artists shouldn't be prolonged affairs.

And they haven't been. Res ipsa loquitur. The thing speaks for itself. Mandarin's H2H is just that good.

Originally posted by leonidas
but we DO know that the others HAVE fought and defeated foes with similar striking power, if not greater.

Already addressed numerous times. Show me where Cap and Batman are sending a foe like Iron Man scrambling for their life with their judo and ninjutsu. Show me a perennial foe of their's, who constantly exhorts their martial arts without the David vs Goliath motif going. You've mentioned Namor for example. Does Namor run away from Cap's judo the same way Iron Man runs away from Mandarin's karate?

You know he doesn't. We both know this. And I'm tired of you ineffectually just repeating points that have already been addressed. I can only shove these rebuttals in your face so many times.

Originally posted by leonidas
so the striking power isn't an issue,

Yes, it is. Because you haven't shown me Cap or Batman constantly sending an Iron Man-level foe scrambling around with their martial arts nearly every time they fight or casually shattering steel and stone.

You need to take a step back and realize what you're doing. You're essentially arguing that consistently beating a foe who physically outclasses you by a longshot, isn't indicative of greater skill. That beating other so-called top tier and second-tier martial artists consistently where they overwhelm them and make the fights incredibly brief, isn't indicative of greater skill. That being capable of superhuman feats like casually shattering rock and steel, being able to survive for a year without food, water or sleep, being able to drain lifeforce through chi, isn't indicative of greater skill.

THEN WHAT EXACTLY WOULD MAKE A GREATER MARTIAL ARTIST?

That's a rhetorical question. We know what makes a greater martial artist. Better feats. And more of them. And Mandarin's got them. Your defense of an entire tier of comic martial artists is bordering on the absurd. Stop acting like an arbiter of what feats are allowed to make a better class of martial artist. Because the types of feats I'm talking about, do classify who the better martial artists are.

Batman-Prime Kryptonian Scientist

Greater striking power of a inhuman MA master vs a better h2h fighter who has a lower striking power.