Mandarin(w/o Rings) Vs Batman(w/o Gadgets)

Originally posted by ODG
Mandarin would have beaten up classic Danny something fierce, as Danny couldn't do sh1t against weaker versions of Iron Man:

That's pretty much the worst loss of his career. And an apt example of a master martial artist that easily rivals, if not surpasses Batman in skill, trying to fight Iron Man in straight H2H and failing spectacularly. And this was at a time when Danny was embarrassing Wolverine and defeating Sabretooth while weakened and blind. These days? As the Immortal Iron Fist? Danny's got a better chance, or he's capable of beating Mandarin straight up.

But what does it matter exactly? Both Mandarin and the Immortal Iron Fist would beat the sh1t out of Batman, Wolverine and Captain America in pure H2H.

we have vastly different opinions of "couldn't do sh!t to IM". IM has also beaten the crap out of mandarin, so IM's beating danny ultimately isn't anything he hasn't done to mandarin as well. i disagree mandy would have wrecked even that version of danny and needless to say i don't think in terms of skill that danny's on a level that surpasses those others by very much if at all. this is getting off-topic, but i think it's still relevant to the issue of skill vs power so which of his (danny's) recent battles would you use to suggest that in straight up skill danny has definitively surpassed someone like cap in particular?

Originally posted by leonidas
we have vastly different opinions of "couldn't do sh!t to IM". IM has also beaten the crap out of mandarin, so IM's beating danny ultimately isn't anything he hasn't done to mandarin as well.

Obviously, it makes classic Iron Fist look like sh1t. But sometimes that's just how it plays out. After all, Mandarin has basically crapped on Captain America and Psylocke directly with his karate.

Originally posted by leonidas
i disagree mandy would have wrecked even that version of danny and needless to say i don't think in terms of skill that danny's on a level that surpasses those others by very much if at all.

Originally posted by leonidas
this is getting off-topic, but i think it's still relevant to the issue of skill vs power so which of his (danny's) recent battles would you use to suggest that in straight up skill danny has definitively surpassed someone like cap in particular?

His fight with the Iron Fist Killer though -- a being who defeated every single Iron Fist other than Orson Randall, was strong enough to slug it out toe-to-toe with Luke Cage, was fast enough to casually dodge bullets in bullet-time, who's teeth could actually penetrate Luke Cage's unbreakable skin -- is a feat that stands out. Considering he defeated him without using Shou Lao's chi. His fight with Gorgon too.

Originally posted by ODG
Yes, Iron Man has beaten up Mandarin because he's a pretty useless supervillain. Mandarin still outclasses Batman in H2H something fierce. I understand that your straight denial that Mandarin would beat up classic Iron Fist is based on completely nothing and in glaring contravention to the most apt comparative performance we can look at against Iron Man.

Obviously, it makes classic Iron Fist look like sh1t. But sometimes that's just how it plays out. After all, Mandarin has basically crapped on Captain America and Psylocke directly with his karate. I understand that your straight denial that Mandarin would beat up classic Iron Fist is based on completely nothing and in glaring contravention to the most apt comparative performance we can look at here with Iron Man. I also understand that your opinion of classic Danny's comparable, if not superior, skill to Wolverine, Cap and Batman completely ignores all the fights classic Danny has against that level of foes where he's almost always exhausted or handicapped in some way and can still throw down, if not outright win. Even if you haven't read any Immortal Iron Fist, I'm pretty sure you've read enough of Bendis' New Avengers to figure that out for yourself. Danny wasn't lacking for appearances or feats and the clear upgrades in skill, powers, and overall power he received during his Immortal Iron Fist run, isn't a discussion I care to revisit again.

His fight with the Iron Fist Killer though -- a being who defeated every single Iron Fist other than Orson Randall, was strong enough to slug it out toe-to-toe with Luke Cage, was fast enough to casually dodge bullets in bullet-time, who's teeth could actually penetrate Luke Cage's unbreakable skin -- is a feat that stands out. Considering he defeated him without using Shou Lao's chi. His fight with Gorgon too.

and i understand that you're saying danny's ultimate defeat at IM's hands is far more significant and indicative of the relative skills of danny and mandarin, than are any of mandarin's countless defeats at IM's hands because......mandarin is a villain. 😐

anyway. mandy has some good feats against IM. cap has some good ones against namor, hulk, etc, daredevil beat up diamond creel, bp one shot karnak. but like you, that is not a discussion or direction i wish to revisit. suffice to say i still disagree with your stance on his skill level. there is no way imo that in straight h2h mandarin would wreck cap, or bats, or any of the others in that category. he might beat most, but it would be on account of his overall power advantage and not his straight up skill. there are entire threads dedicated to danny vs all those others, so i think it is fair to say your stance on his skill superiority relative to those others is also debatable to say the least.

Originally posted by leonidas
and i understand that you're saying danny's ultimate defeat at IM's hands is far more significant and indicative of the relative skills of danny and mandarin, than are any of mandarin's countless defeats at IM's hands because......mandarin is a villain. 😐

There's a reason Mandarin and Temugin are the only martial arts masters who have wrecked Iron Man in straight H2H. It's not because Iron Man jobbed to them. And there's a reason why this forum as a whole has historically placed them in a MA skill tier above Batman, Cap and Wolverine.

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway. mandy has some good feats against IM. cap has some good ones against namor, hulk, etc, daredevil beat up diamond creel, bp one shot karnak. but like you, that is not a discussion or direction i wish to revisit. suffice to say i still disagree with your stance on his skill level. there is no way imo that in straight h2h mandarin would wreck cap, or bats, or any of the others in that category. he might beat most, but it would be on account of his overall power advantage and not his straight up skill. there are entire threads dedicated to danny vs all those others, so i think it is fair to say your stance on his skill superiority relative to those others is also debatable to say the least.

Not exactly a method of reading or discussing comics that I would endorse.

Originally posted by ODG
[B]Mandarin would have beaten up classic Danny something fierce, as Danny couldn't do sh1t against weaker versions of Iron Man:

He did manage to stagger him, which isn't as good as what Mandarin could do, but still pretty impressive by street standards.

Claremont's writing of Danny was kind of sketchy, though. He'd write him really over the top, to the point of nuking a city (Or at least a city block), and ripping through super robots that Cage only hurt his knuckles against, and knocking out Warhawk (Who had steel hard skin and stats like Cage, but also looked like metal because he got his powers from an earlier process then Cage..) with non Iron Fist blows. Yet, he also wrote Danny as being unable to knock Cage out with his best Iron Fist, or damage Iron Man's armor... (Something Cage did manage to do in his brief fight with Iron Man, even if it wasn't serious damage..)

Now Priest, his Iron Fist was a beast.. Vibranium suit shredder who could have taken Cage's head clean off, knocked out a guy who overpowered Thor, and staggered a dragon who shrugged off surface to air missiles.. He'd be a better match for Mandarin, imo.

And Mandarin wins, I think.

Unless he uses the Batkick. Did we ban the Batkick yet?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
It did happen. But there was context, Tony used armor's device to calculate how to block perfectly. Mandarin got better in later stories, as stated by himself...

Well being the martial art expert that Mandarin is. I'm sure he learned from that mistake and got better to target areas that are vulnerable as vulnerable can be anyways. It is Ironman after all.

But I knew I remember him hurting himself "badly" once(someone posted that scan a long time ago). Mandarin is impressive though, for sure.

Kind of like Shang Chi targeting that knee cap of that Robot that worked well with Ex-Nilho(or however you spell his name). Target vulnerable areas.

Pshh all of you underestimating the mandarin is blasphemy. At the least he is trans, because none of you know who he is...... You will neveeeeeeer see him coming.

Originally posted by ODG
Because we're not discussing Mandarin's track record against Iron Man. We're discussing his H2H skills which are in full display when he fights a foe like Iron Man. You can move all the goalposts you want, but you've already tried to argue that Mandarin isn't much above any other top tier martial artists because Iron Man can't be used as a control case. Except that you have a whole bunch of other top tier martial artists (like Cap and Iron Fist) trying to engage Iron Man in H2H and they can't do sh1t. The same way Batman wouldn't be able to do sh1t with straight fisticuffs.

There's a reason Mandarin and Temugin are the only martial arts masters who have wrecked Iron Man in straight H2H. It's not because Iron Man jobbed to them. And there's a reason why this forum as a whole has historically placed them in a MA skill tier above Batman, Cap and Wolverine. I understand that your opinion is largely based on ignoring Captain America and Psylocke being overwhelmed in H2H and ignoring pretty much every single Mandarin skill feat ever that other top tier martial artists can't match in scope, much less in number.

Not exactly a method of reading or discussing comics that I would endorse.

and i understand that your entire stance essentially boils down to this: mandarin has performed consistently well (but consistently lost) against a physically superior opponent who is vastly less skilled than he is, and that you're attributing his defeats to the fact that mandarin is a villain. not a stance i'd endorse. you've even gone so far as to appeal to the forum's stance at large to support your stance--very un-odg-like, that.... i also understand you're deifying mandy's feats against IM, while ignoring all the other popular martial guys' feats against vastly superior physical opponents.

but, you're right, no other martial artist has damaged tony consistently like mandy has, but, if you want to go the "villain" route, there is the equally shaky logic that would say no other martial artist has fought tony nearly as often. there is also the fact that mandarin has super strength which....is kind of important. you claim he is SO skilled he chi amps. well, danny chi amps. shang chi amps. is shang now in the 'unearthly tier' as well? VASTLY more skilled than guys like cap or bp?

and to be clear--i'm NOT arguing that mandy is NOT extremely skilled. clearly he is. i DO take issue with the fact that you--and apparently "the whole forum"--places him on a completely different level skill-wise from guys like bp, bats, cap, dd, logan, etc....and the reason for it is that he can chi amp and damage tony--tony, who, relatively speaking, is an unskilled noob. and you keep bringing up psylocke--in the second battle, she DID get in powerful kick and had him in a hold before he tossed her. he was clearly far stronger than she was and it was more strength than skill imo that let him overpower her. not exactly an unearthly showing for him skill-wise. imo.

cap (as a quick example) has done well against namor, among others. i'd say the physical disparity between them>>the physical disparity between IM/mandarin. many of the popular martial guys have several feats against vastly superior opponents (maybe not tony in particular, but that doesn't make their own feats against people who greatly overpower them physically any less impressive) so i don't get why mandy's good feats (even though he loses in the end) somehow magically elevate him to levels far exceeding guys LIKE cap. and no, i do NOT put much stock in a 40yr old scan that has cap concerned that mandarin might break his shield. but please continue to repeat your mantra for your adoring fans. call me crazy, but i'm thinking if mandy fought cap NOW in h2h combat, that fight might go....a little differently.

then, after telling me that mandarin himself is so far beyond the likes of cap et al, you THEN say danny can beat him and is likely more skilled than even mandarin. so now danny>unearthly tier?? yeah, i'll not be buying that anytime soon, and honestly, that stance really weakens your overall opinion in my mind. we've seen countless battles among danny and his peers, and in terms of sheer skill (not amping power or physical stats, pure skill) he is NOT definitively above them. the entire collective weights of the others, as well as danny's own history against them, support that notion.

to sum up--i do not think mandarin's skill can be accurately stated to be levels beyond the popular martial guys based solely on his performance against a single, superior foe, who is vastly inferior to him skill-wise. the others have similarly impressive showings against similarly powered foes--and most lack mandarin's superhuman advantages. just because it is not against tony in particular, doesn't degrade the feats. imo mandarin is on the same general level (skill-wise) as guys like danny, cap, bats, bp, dd, etc with any differences between their h2h skill being relatively small and very much debatable. mandarin would win more than he'd lose against this level of opponent though, because he is more powerful than most, not because he is so "vastly" more skilled than they are. imo. 'pologies for the text dump, just wanted my stance to be as clear as possible.

Originally posted by cdtm
And Mandarin wins, I think.

Unless he uses the Batkick. Did we ban the Batkick yet?

We didn't, but DC did with their reset.

Originally posted by ODG
Mandarin doesn't use his rings to amp his hands. If you had ever read a single Iron Man comic, you might know this. There might be one scene where he does and it's all glowy and stuff. But neither Mandarin, nor Iron Man, nor the comics have ever attributed Mandarin's superhuman karate to his rings.

👆

The rings were never stated to amp Mandarin's Karate chops.The rings were often employed more on long range assaults.His inhuman striking power was more attributed to his mastery of chi energy.The guy survived for years without food and water.Again a testament to his mastery of chi energy.Which is part of his skill set.

Originally posted by leonidas
and i understand that your entire stance essentially boils down to this: mandarin has performed consistently well (but consistently lost) against a physically superior opponent who is vastly less skilled than he is, and that you're attributing his defeats to the fact that mandarin is a villain. not a stance i'd endorse. you've even gone so far as to appeal to the forum's stance at large to support your stance--very un-odg-like, that.... i also understand you're deifying mandy's feats against IM, while ignoring all the other popular martial guys' feats against vastly superior physical opponents.

Pointing out that srankmissingnin and jinzin wouldn't even argue against Mandarin's superior skill over Wolverine is just punctuation on how ridiculous it is to even argue otherwise. If it's that clear to them, you should ask yourself what exactly is keeping you from this opinion.

Because from where I stand, it's just stubbornness and a preconceived notion whose bases were already shattered in this very thread.

Originally posted by leonidas
but, you're right, no other martial artist has damaged tony consistently like mandy has, but, if you want to go the "villain" route, there is the equally shaky logic that would say no other martial artist has fought tony nearly as often. there is also the fact that mandarin has super strength which....is kind of important. you claim he is SO skilled he chi amps. well, danny chi amps. shang chi amps. is shang now in the 'unearthly tier' as well? VASTLY more skilled than guys like cap or bp?

Originally posted by leonidas
and to be clear--i'm NOT arguing that mandy is NOT extremely skilled. clearly he is. i DO take issue with the fact that you--and apparently "the whole forum"--places him on a completely different level skill-wise from guys like bp, bats, cap, dd, logan, etc....and the reason for it is that he can chi amp and damage tony--tony, who, relatively speaking, is an unskilled noob. and you keep bringing up psylocke--in the second battle, she DID get in powerful kick and had him in a hold before he tossed her. he was clearly far stronger than she was and it was more strength than skill imo that let him overpower her. not exactly an unearthly showing for him skill-wise. imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
cap (as a quick example) has done well against namor, among others. i'd say the physical disparity between them>>the physical disparity between IM/mandarin. many of the popular martial guys have several feats against vastly superior opponents (maybe not tony in particular, but that doesn't make their own feats against people who greatly overpower them physically any less impressive) so i don't get why mandy's good feats (even though he loses in the end) somehow magically elevate him to levels far exceeding guys LIKE cap. and no, i do NOT put much stock in a 40yr old scan that has cap concerned that mandarin might break his shield. but please continue to repeat your mantra for your adoring fans. call me crazy, but i'm thinking if mandy fought cap NOW in h2h combat, that fight might go....a little differently.

then, after telling me that mandarin himself is so far beyond the likes of cap et al, you THEN say danny can beat him and is likely more skilled than even mandarin. so now danny>unearthly tier?? yeah, i'll not be buying that anytime soon, and honestly, that stance really weakens your overall opinion in my mind. we've seen countless battles among danny and his peers, and in terms of sheer skill (not amping power or physical stats, pure skill) he is NOT definitively above them. the entire collective weights of the others, as well as danny's own history against them, support that notion.

The Immortal Iron Fist rivals if not surpasses Mandarin's superhuman karate. Learn to read what I said. Because that was the import you should have taken from my statement that "These days? As the Immortal Iron Fist? Danny's got a better chance, or he's capable of beating Mandarin straight up." I didn't suggest in the slightest that Danny transcends Mandarin completely. You're pretty awful at twisting other people's words. Stick to irrelevant red herrings, because your straw-mans are both inept and witless.

Also, when Cap can punch a Helicarrier, let us know. Otherwise, you're just making false distinctions that are completely irrelevant. Acting like the Iron Fist technique isn't a matter of skill is pretty stupid. Like, it's so stupidly transparent that you're trying to parse these characters' defining martial arts to separate out their feats whilst ignoring that Danny didn't achieve such power by birth or mutation. He earned it through training, discipline and by studying the martial arts of Kun Lun. This is skill. To be able to hit harder and more effectively. Like Temugin being able to hit harder than Cap, despite them both using chi on-panel. Temugin just uses his chi to much greater effect, because he is more skilled.

You want to argue that utilizing your chi has nothing to do with skill, make that argument in another thread where it's relevant and where it's likely to be laughed right out of this forum. It has no place in this discussion.

Originally posted by leonidas
to sum up--i do not think mandarin's skill can be accurately stated to be levels beyond the popular martial guys

Mandarin can fight Iron Man with his bare hands, something Batman, Cap, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Psylocke, Black Panther, etc. clearly can't do. Mandarin's overwhelmed Cap and Psylocke on-panel with his karate. Mandarin demonstrates multiple feats of inhuman skill derived from his karate that none of the other so-called top tier comic martial artist streets can do, i.e., shatter steel casually, live for years without food, water or sleep, wreck Iron Man's armor, etc.

Somehow, Mandarin -- who accomplishes greater feats with his superhuman karate skills, on a consistent basis all the way from the 60s to the 00s -- isn't a greater martial artist. So what exactly makes a greater martial artist other than having greater martial arts feats and overwhelming other martial artists on-panel? According to this conversation, a bat symbol, stars and stripes, and hollow red herrings. Excuse me while I laugh myself out of this discussion. Because the ignorance is starting to offend me.

Serious question... is it purely a skill thing with Danny? I'm asking because I remember his Iron Fist's been stolen before. Or was it a onetime plot device?

^ That's two different questions. Danny cultivates and utilizes his chi through skill. There are opponents who can steal chi.

Originally posted by ODG
When Cap fights Namor, it isn't accompanied with multiple thought bubbles and narration of Namor thinking, "I must avoid the Captain's punches!!!! I may not survive another blow like that!!!" N1gga, please. Cap versus Namor is David versus Goliath. And anybody who's ever read one of their fights knows this. Mandarin or Temugin versus Iron Man in straight H2H isn't David versus Goliath. Why? Because Mandarin's and Temugin's H2H is just that good. And other martial artists who have tried to fight Iron Man aren't.... which (surprise!) includes Cap.

The Immortal Iron Fist rivals if not surpasses Mandarin's superhuman karate. Learn to read what I said. Because that was the import you should have taken from my statement that "These days? As the Immortal Iron Fist? Danny's got a better chance, or he's capable of beating Mandarin straight up." I didn't suggest in the slightest that Danny transcends Mandarin completely. You're pretty awful at twisting other people's words. Stick to irrelevant red herrings, because your straw-mans are both inept and witless.

Also, when Cap can punch a Helicarrier, let us know. Otherwise, you're just making false distinctions that are completely irrelevant. Acting like the Iron Fist technique isn't a matter of skill is pretty stupid. Like, it's so stupidly transparent that you're trying to parse these characters' defining martial arts to separate out their feats whilst ignoring that Danny didn't achieve such power by birth or mutation. He earned it through training, discipline and by studying the martial arts of Kun Lun. This is skill. To be able to hit harder and more effectively. Like Temugin being able to hit harder than Cap, despite them both using chi on-panel. Temugin just uses his chi to much greater effect, because he is more skilled.

You want to argue that utilizing your chi has nothing to do with skill, make that argument in another thread where it's relevant and where it's likely to be laughed right out of this forum. It has no place in this discussion. Based on absolutely nothing and in direct contravention to all of Mandarin's skill feats, of which he has many. We know this already about you. *yawn*

Mandarin can fight Iron Man with his bare hands, something Batman, Cap, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Psylocke, Black Panther, etc. clearly can't do. Mandarin's overwhelmed Cap and Psylocke on-panel with his karate. Mandarin demonstrates multiple feats of inhuman skill derived from his karate that none of the other so-called top tier comic martial artist streets can do, i.e., shatter steel casually, live for years without food, water or sleep, wreck Iron Man's armor, etc.

Somehow, Mandarin -- who accomplishes greater feats with his superhuman karate skills, on a consistent basis all the way from the 60s to the 00s -- isn't a greater martial artist. So what exactly makes a greater martial artist other than having greater martial arts feats and overwhelming other martial artists on-panel? According to this conversation, a bat symbol, stars and stripes, and hollow red herrings. Excuse me while I laugh myself out of this discussion. Because the ignorance is starting to offend me.

and...............you think mandarin is so good because he can do well against a superior opponent even though he is superhumanly powerful to begin with. yes, we know this about you. *yawn*

especially well done playing down the other martial artists feats against even more superior foes with greater differences in relative power levels. and we all know that guys like cap and bp have NEVER fought against or defeated anyone who can (LE GASP!) break steel consistently with their bare hands!! david and goliath. lol and while we're handing out awards for witless-ness and ineptitude, i'd be remiss for not passing the award to you for so expertly and blatantly ignoring the little known fact that IM still consistently kicks mandarin's a$$ (because he's a villain). 👆 i should also give you the special I SPY prize, for so cleverly pointing out my attempted "false distinction" as relates to SKILL, something i only stated i was discussing, like, 100 times. tough slipping anything past you......

but don't worry, you came across very clearly. IF, despite all his showings, past and present, is greater than mandarin who is like, a gazillion times better than captain america in h2h combat. despite the fact that mandarin has never even really FOUGHT another uber h2h guy, and the one he DID fight (not so uber) got in a great kick AND placed him in a hold before he powered out. all that and you didn't actually counter.....a thing. you just restated--he hurts IM so he must be the greatest!11! blah blah. cap and bats and dd and most others aside from shang and fist, don't have the levels of control over chi they have because they never studied one style so utterly. i wonder how many martial styles mandarin knows? hopefully one of these days one of the guys i've been talking about WILL face mandarin, then we will see for certain how truly skilled he is. until then, we'll keep our opinions.

anyway, you're appalled at my stupidity, i'm no less appalled by your own, you're not changing my mind so i'm a *bleep*, no YOU'RE a *bleep* because you won't change YOUR mind, yadda yadda, get your last word in, throw in some latin, mix in some insults and be done with it. the act is old, like the rush to insults is old, as is the cry of righteousness in doling them out. few people in the forum take so personally to being disagreed with. incidentally, i LOVE that you have appealed to both the forum at large AND srank and jin. lol i do believe that is a first and i'll count that as a victory of sorts. somewhere, gs and masters are shaking hands. adieu.

Originally posted by leonidas
and...............you think mandarin is so good because he can do well against a superior opponent even though he is superhumanly powerful to begin with. yes, we know this about you. *yawn*

Originally posted by leonidas
especially well done playing down the other martial artists feats against even more superior foes with greater differences in relative power levels. and we all know that guys like cap and bp have NEVER fought against or defeated anyone who can (LE GASP!) break steel consistently with their bare hands!! david and goliath. lol and while we're handing out awards for witless-ness and ineptitude, i'd be remiss for not passing the award to you for so expertly and blatantly ignoring the little known fact that IM still consistently kicks mandarin's a$$ (because he's a villain). 👆 i should also give you the special I SPY prize, for so cleverly pointing out my attempted "false distinction" as relates to SKILL, something i only stated i was discussing, like, 100 times. tough slipping anything past you......

Originally posted by leonidas
but don't worry, you came across very clearly.

Originally posted by leonidas
IF, despite all his showings, past and present, is greater than mandarin who is like, a gazillion times better than captain america in h2h combat.

Originally posted by leonidas
despite the fact that mandarin has never even really FOUGHT another uber h2h guy, and the one he DID fight (not so uber) got in a great kick AND placed him in a hold before he powered out. all that and you didn't actually counter.....a thing. you just restated--he hurts IM so he must be the greatest!11! blah blah. cap and bats and dd and most others aside from shang and fist, don't have the levels of control over chi they have because they never studied one style so utterly. i wonder how many martial styles mandarin knows? hopefully one of these days one of the guys i've been talking about WILL face mandarin, then we will see for certain how truly skilled he is. until then, we'll keep our opinions.

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, you're appalled at my stupidity

@leonidas, 👆

So ok, IF and Mandarin have chi and are good at h2h. No one denies this but that doesn't mean they are up there with people like CA and Wolverine or Batman. Especially people like Batman and CA who rely mostly on their skills and no exotic superpowers like chi and Rings to survive and fight.

Sure IF can hit through Steel, Mandarin can do this too, with chi or his force field (from the rings) he can even damage Tonys armor with his hands. Does that mean he is a superior h2h fighter comapred to others? No. Bricks or Steel don't hit back and Tony is a lot but he is not one of the best MA in the World.
CA or Batman are however and without his Rings and his chi, it's doubful that he plays in their league.

Danny vs Wolverine without chi

Mandarin without Rings vs Ironman

Could CA or Batman beat IM with their bare hands? Probably not. But they are not fighting IM and it doesn't matter, they fight Mandarin. Sure his punches would hurt them but they tanked worse, from beings with superstrength who hit harder then mandarin. And what about Mandarin, he will feel their punches and can be ko by people with their strength and their skill, he will definitely feel THEIR hits.
In the end it comes down not to the person who can hit IM harder or break steel (BTW Batman destroys bricks and breaks trees with his kicks and punches, he also makes Grundy feel his hits with skill alone) but to the person who can tank or avoid more damage and hit the other more often and for this you need just pure skill. The better fighter wins. And Mandarin never fought anyone on their level h2h only to say he plays in their leauge.

As for the Rings amping him. Well, if they wouldn't he wouldn't be able to grow or change himself, he wouldn't be able to grow new hands which look like a dragons or shoot beams from his hands. They have an effect on their user and grant him superhuman powers/stats, that's obvious. Except of this, he hurt tony with the prothesis, well if there would be no external power protecting this prothesis when mandarin hit im it would most likely break because it should be inferior to IM armor. Well, it didn't and it's not a part of Mandarins hardened and trained body, which means that something had to keed it from being squished between IM armor and Mandarins stump.

It's wishful thinking and pure hate to place someone so high just because he can damage "doubful if unamped" IM armor. It's a pure h2h fight, skills vs skill and against the best there are.

Batmans striking power and skill are good enough to damage Mandarin

CA striking power and skills are equal

So they will be able to do damage to Mandarin. Mandarin might be the master of Karate but it's a disadvantage to limit oneself to one style, CA and Batman know more styles and how to counter other, they will have the upper hand from the beginning. Batman even fought and could stand his ground against the best MA in comic history, KK who would shit all over Dany and Mandarin together, with skill and striking power.

Sure Kk wasn't himself but still deadly and as skilled, and sure Batman would have lost in the End.

So what does the Mandarin have? superior striking power against steel or IM? He lacks the styles, the skills, the cunning in h2h, the experience to fight without powers, compared to the others etc. means he will lose, badly. Like Karnak did against BP.
Karnak has similar striking qualities like the Mandarin.

He can break steel, hurt superpowered beings, thanks to his training and meditation he will see every weak point.

And what happens when he fights someone who doesn't relys on "exotic" powers but more on skill?

The board has people resonable enough to see Mandarins h2h weaknes.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t585479.html

Although I don't posses Mandarin main fights with Ironman in his solo books. I do have most of Mandarin appearances in TOS, Avengers, and Captain America. As I will admit in "these" showings he is a threat to Ironman but only because of the combo of his prep/tech, rings, thugs, superhuman strength, karate skill. But not just based on his hth skills alone.

For example here is the scene. Mandarin has weakened Ironman severley to make him believe he was much "stronger" then he really was. As Ironman figured out he couldn't really break his Ironman armour and made Mandarin hurt himself badly. Ironman won easily despite Mandarin weakening him with prep/hurting him with his rings.
https://imageshack.com/i/mq7pp7j

Another fight in TOS.

Again Ironman damaged from previously and bare handed as Tony knows he has no real weapons. Tony Goads Mandarin to fight him in HTH because if he uses his rings Tony is a goner. The outcome below as Mandarin notices his super karate can't do much to Ironman.
http://imageshack.com/a/img689/4443/lz1y.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img21/7941/1jum.jpg

Now these are true past showings. As I am unaware of how good currently Mandarin does against Ironman now a days. But it is obvious in this past his hth was simply not enough against a context weakened Ironman........"back" then anyways. He might do better in the more modern Ironman books, which I don't have.

Here Mandarin fights Cap longer then a one strike shield hit, which was a stalemate with Cap in that one. Here Mandarin doesn't really engage Steve in hand to hand and relies in his rings but Cap gets the better of him tactically. In a rings vs shield/environment match.
http://imageshack.com/a/img15/28/16w0.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img543/268/iupw.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img69/7631/hc56.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img812/2266/aq23.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img4/9616/6h36.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img689/9464/4prp.jpg