Darth Vader vs. Darth Malgus

Started by Stigma12 pages

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok first up it doesn't need to be the HoT and the Barsen'thor. It could be them or it could be Darth Nox/Emperor's Wrath.

Yes, I know. I was referring to HoT/Barsen’thor simply because I know more about them.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Secondly, it isn't 3 other Jedi. Its the Hero of Tython, the Barsen'thor, the Voidhound (Smuggler, awesome name btw) and the Havoc Squad Commander (Trooper) / Darth Nox, The Emperor's Wrath, The Grand Champion of the Great Hunt (Bounty Hunter) and Cipher 9 (Imperial Agent). Both teams are comprised of 2 Force Using classes and 2 Non-Force using classes. And in the case of the non-Force users the Bounty Hunter is the only one with really good feats.

Ok.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thirdly your Sidious comparison isn't correct. Since Windu is = to Sidious and Palps still took him on with Fisto, Kolar and Tiin.

Nah, I think you misunderstood my analogy.

Even if we assume Windu = Sidious, still Sidious wasn’t fighting TWO Windus, and this is precisely what my analogy introduces.

And given that you view HoT as Malgus superior, an analogy with Sidious would be:
Sidious vs. Windu AND Yoda, in which case Sidious is fvcked.

The same applies to Malgus vs. Barsen’thor and HoT.
The fact that those two didn’t murder Malgus is quite strange to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Fourthly my headcanon is:
HoT > Malgus (via beating someone superior to him, Vitiate, who by the way is stated to be more powerful than Malgus in SWTORE)
Barsen'thor = Malgus (Supremely good Force feats. Beat an Ancient Sith Lord amped on the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters. Beat the First Son.)
Darth Nox = Malgus (Has the power of SIX (Theres another one you get on Voss) spirits, 4 of which are Sith Lords. Casually dominated Darth Thanaton.)
The Emperor's Wrath < Malgus (I don't really know anything about him but I've not seen anything that makes me think he's equal to Malgus)

Ok. Now I see where you stand.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Then of the non-Force users I don't really know. The Havoc Squad Commander is by far the best soldier in the Republic so pretty good? The Smuggler is an incredible fighter but other than that not much to go on? Cipher 9 is the best Imperial Agent in the Empire so I guess good? They beat a Jedi Master at least. And then the Grand Champion has actual great feats in beating Kellian Jarro, a Jedi Master who killed over a hundred veteran Mandalorians in the Sack of Coruscant, Jun Seros, the Orders Battlemaster whose never been defeated before and Darth Tormen, an extremely powerful Sith Lord who once blitzed another Sith in a Kaggath (as described in SWTORE).

Cool. Very informative.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lastly, as to the actual point, extremely skilled combatants can fight people close to them in power without being pwned. This doesn't make them better than them, merely showing that they are very good and can't be taken out that easily, even when they are outmatched. As Malgus was. Ventress has duelled Anakin and Obi-Wan for lengths of time despite not being superior, or maybe even equal to either of them. Obi-Wan fought Maul and Savage Opress to a victory despite being at a disadvantage and not superior to Maul.

To my knowledge, neither Anakin/Kenobi nor Maul/Savage wanted to kill their opponents. They were going to subdue them.
Moreover, Maul/Savage fight was noted to be circumstantial (the brothers were hampered by enclosed space—simply not enough space to maneuver in the cave).
I’m not sure if the same can be said about HoT/Barsen’thor fight with Malgus.
Still, you raise a good point.

TBH As I said, I was being nitpicky and thus not necessarily pushing my little nitpicky theory.

That being said, I am leaning towards Vader.
The case that Intrepid makes for him, plus my knowledge of Vader’s abilities make me do so. However, I have to say I have a new found respect for Malgus. Thanks to the points raised here I rank him a bit higher than I did previously.

Originally posted by Stigma

Cool. Very informative.

To my knowledge, neither Anakin/Kenobi nor Maul/Savage wanted to kill their opponents. They were going to subdue them.
Moreover, Maul/Savage fight was noted to be circumstantial (the brothers were hampered by enclosed space—simply not enough space to maneuver in the cave).

Thing is it's happened too many times. Ventress vs Anakin/Kenobi, Opress vs Anakin/Kenobi, Kenobi vs Maul/Opress.

And even when not going for the "kill," it shouldn't be that difficult to subdue an opponent when you have numbers and power on your side. And you certainly shouldn't be losing.

It's just possible in SW to take on multiple opponents each of whom are on your level. Seems more possible using Jar Kai and of course having that extra will power, not to go down for that fight, helps. As suggested in the opening of Revival "Strength of character defeats strength in numbers."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hyperbole is inexact but still establishes a vague description. The obvious meaning of that quote is that Zallow is very powerful.

😐

Originally posted by Nephthys
Shryne is some random loser Jedi Knight who lost much of his connection to the Force.

Shryne's not a loser, bro.

As tenuous as his contact with the Force sometimes was, Shryne was still a master with a sword, and almost thirty years of training had honed his instincts and turned his body into an instrument of tremendous speed and power. The Force guided him to areas of greatest threat, the blue blade of his lightsaber cleaving the thick air, deflecting fire, severing limbs. Moments expanded, allowing him to perceive each individual energy bolt, each flick of a vibroblade. Unfaltering intention gave him ample time to see to every danger, and to carry out his task.

-Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh yeah, and Vader doesn't even beat him in lightsaber combat, he's forced to beat him with the Force. And Shryne hits him twice in their duel. Ouch. Not looking good for Vader.

Good for Shryne.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meanwhile Zallow was in charge of the Jedi Temple and was above people like Kellian Jarro, Ursa and Corin Tok.

Meanwhile Shryne would've been named onto the High Council had he not been privy to it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow, again with the hostility. If you're getting pissed off over this maybe we should stop. I hate to ruin our fwendship over this.

fwendship?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, I disagree that Kenobi would own him. Zallows feats of owning the best Sith Warriors the Empire had plus his superiority to Jedi such as Kellian Jarro, who soloed over a hundred veteran Madalorians in that battle, Ursa, one of the Jedis best duelists and Corin Tok, who did so well in the battle that he was believed to be invincible, make it so that I think he could at least give Kenobi a good fight. Plus its not as if Kenobi's Soresu style enables him to "own" people easily. It is a passive style afterall.

Kenobi's beaten Ventress and Grievous and has held his own against Maul who is far better than Zallow. He should and would take Zallow quite handily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hell yeah it is. Darach showed extremely good lightsaber skills

Originally posted by Nephthys
and was the Jedi Battlemaster

So what? Anakin turned bad beat Drallig, who was the battlemaster, while Drallig was empowered by a nexus (Anakin is better than Vader as a swordsman, but his troubled emotions at the point when he fought Drallig would even it out).

Originally posted by Nephthys
and also displayed powerful TK by throwing a van-sized starship engine at Malgus.

Decent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You've already conceded about Satales skill and power.

No?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok so, Leneer is also very powerful,

Thanks for letting me know, you're like, so informative.

Originally posted by Nephthys
lesser Sith:

👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet when Malgus got serious he owned her as easily as she owned that Sith.

With lightning, not by being more telekinetically powerful or more skilled.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Now lets look at your list:

1) Multiple Jedi.
2) Roan Shryne - A Jedi Knight of no note worthy ability and with his connection to the Force stunted. Excuse me while I sneer.
3) ANH Obi-Wan - A shadow of his former self.
4) Marek - Incredible combatant, but given that Vader lost to him in both fights and is stated to latter diminish meh, still "good".
5) The Dark Woman - What is she, like 80? Powerful, she was pretty good I guess. Also she disarmed Vader? Lmao. What a fantastic feat for him. 😆
6) Celeste Morne - A Jedi Knight. Nothing notable about her really that I can recall.


You really don't get it, do you? If he did those feats in his prime, no, it wouldn't be impressive. But beating multiple Jedi ambushing you before growing massively in skill is extremely good, and if you say beating Zallow is better I might just want to stop this discussion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh and I see you also ignored the fact that Malgus killed fodder Jedi in greater numbers than Vader. Kukukuku.

I don't care about numbers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, Leneer?

?

Originally posted by Nephthys
EIther way, Malgus is described as being under a mountain of rubble,

Hyperboles.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus they were actual durascrete buildings as opposed to the cathedral Vader pulled down which looks like its made of ****ing glass, lol.

Lol. Vader's feats are still better.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In skill. We're talking about his "power upgrade."

Okay. I'll try and find something gauging.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Really? I guess I must have imagined it when Vader was kicking his ass at the start of the fight while using one hand. Forcing him down to the floor contemptuously with one hand. Which kinda contradicts the idea that they only advantage Vader had was experience! 😆 He's obviously stronger than Luke at that point. Then he disarms him and has him completely at his mercy. Then he starts smacking him around with thrown objects which Luke hilariously fails to hit with his lightsaber. Then he beats him again and tells him to surrender. After they resume fightying he then kicks his ass and cuts off his hand.

But no, they were total equals! Theres no way you can watch that fight without understanding that!

Unless you have eyes. 😐


You can ignore sources all you like, but, as per canon, he did not beat Luke because he was more skilled, he beat him because of his experience (or rather, Luke's lack of it).

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, but it puts him on a level with him in terms of lightsaber skill.

Uh, no it doesn't, it puts him a good level below.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
😐

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Shryne's not a loser, bro.

As tenuous as his contact with the Force sometimes was, Shryne was still a master with a sword, and almost thirty years of training had honed his instincts and turned his body into an instrument of tremendous speed and power. The Force guided him to areas of greatest threat, the blue blade of his lightsaber cleaving the thick air, deflecting fire, severing limbs. Moments expanded, allowing him to perceive each individual energy bolt, each flick of a vibroblade. Unfaltering intention gave him ample time to see to every danger, and to carry out his task.

-Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader

Ohhh, he was a master swordsman (according to his own PoV). That's so amazing for him!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Good for Shryne.

Or bad for Vader.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Meanwhile Shryne would've been named onto the High Council had he not been privy to it.

Lmao. Yeah, a Jedi Knight on the Council. Who do you think he is, Anakin?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
fwendship?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kenobi's beaten Ventress and Grievous and has held his own against Maul who is far better than Zallow. He should and would take Zallow quite handily.

And Zallow held his own against Malgus, who is far better than Ventress or Grievous. He should take Kenobi handily*.

(*this is a joke)**

(**although now that I think about it....)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So what? Anakin turned bad beat Drallig, who was the battlemaster, while Drallig was empowered by a nexus (Anakin is better than Vader as a swordsman, but his troubled emotions at the point when he fought Drallig would even it out).

So Malgus beat him 41 years before his prime. :T

Whereas by your own admission Anakin is better than Vader as a swordsman and it only "evens out." Your evidence for Malgus being better is starting to look more and more convincing...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Decent.

Thank you. ✅

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No?

You didn't even try to contest that quote I posted. Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Thanks for letting me know, you're like, so informative.

👆

You are welcome. Its a pretty good feat. I mean, owning 2 people at once is still pretty impressive no matter how mediocre they are. 2 mediocres add up to a good after all.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
With lightning, not by being more telekinetically powerful or more skilled.

Actually right before that he did more or less beat her in lightsaber combat as well.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You really don't get it, do you? If he did those feats in his prime, no, it wouldn't be impressive. But beating multiple Jedi ambushing you before growing massively in skill is extremely good, and if you say beating Zallow is better I might just want to stop this discussion.

Funny, You're being so unpleasant to talk to I'm considering the same thing.

Aaaand, I still don't see it as impressive and I do think beating Zallow is more impressive. Those Jedi. Sucked. Ass. Zallow is actually good! QED. Beating Zallow is more impressive that beating those noobs for precisely the reason as Malgus beating a bunch of Jedi in the same fight is less impressive that beating Zallow, as evidenced by you're next reply:

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't care about numbers.

Other than if it makes Vader look good you mean.

Thanks for making it easy to support my above point though! 👆

Originally posted by Intrepid37
?

Malgus didn't kill Leneer with lightning. He let her go afterwards.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Hyperboles.

Still indicates a lot of rubble was on top of him. Again, I've argued why those buildings should logically be sizable. Plus he blew the rubble away from him with enough force for it to crash into buildings further away than the ones collapsed, after he held it up. Blowing that much rubble away from you is impressive as hell considering the weight they must of had.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Lol. Vader's feats are still better.

Than the Jedi who pulled down the buildings? Maaaybe. Malgus still owned that guy though!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You can ignore sources all you like, but, as per canon, he did not beat Luke because he was more skilled, he beat him because of his experience (or rather, Luke's lack of it).

I'm not ignoring sources, I'm going off of the movie. Which is the highest form of canon. 😉

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Uh, no it doesn't, it puts him a good level below.

Why?

You missed the first part.

No, it just wasn't really worth comment.

Neither is any of the shit you post, so I guess I should just let it go.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it like that. I just meant that there wasn't really anything I needed to reply to.

noob

Bump.

So... Vader vs. Malgus is a hot topic again. Thoughts?

Man, I don't even remember the time when Intrepid was more than just an irritating fly. What a mindscrew.

Vader wins all three

Originally posted by Nephthys
You cannot hope to beat me in TOR wank. When it comes to TOR wank, I am simply the best there is.

👆

God I'm the ****ing best.

Vader

Malgus has a flawless technique according to the Hero and has considerable Force Powers, one shotting powerful Jedi with lightning, effortlessly ragdolling Jedi with TK and lifting several tons of duracrete piled on-top of him.

Great fight, either could win.

Bump. Because why not 😉

I'm undecided. Vader is the safe and most popular answer though so I guess he wins.

Vader godstomps

Unlikely.

Originally posted by Azronger
Vader godstomps