Chosen Undead (Dark Souls) vs The Dovahkiin (Skryim)

Originally posted by Astner
Well it's either pounds or kilograms, and I was giving you the benefit of a doubt.

But ignoring that, let's do some basic analysis.

It's easy to see that the weight system is linear. Because equipping two weapons at the same time has the weight penalty of their collective weights.

For instance, a Longsword weighs 3.0 units, equipping two Longswords will give you a collective weight of 6.0 units, like the Claymore which weighs 6.0 units.

I.e. it's a linear weight system.

Now doing some basic check up on the weapons, Longswords actually averaged around 3 pounds and Claymores around 6 pounds. So it's more likely that the designers based their weight system on the imperial unit.

Which puts actually Smough's Hammer at 12.7 kg, my bad.

Oh and before I go to bed, nice job adding pounds and kilograms to the purely-gameplay related, obviously broken, fantasy world weight system that SPECIFICALLY USES NO UNITS. And I'm the guy who's stretching here?

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Speed feat calc'd:http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19642

If it was true, then that would mean that the game plays out in in slow-motion, and for reasons other than artistic effect it decides to speed to real time the moment the arrow is fired.

That said, Gough never uses the bow against the player. If turned hostile he'll try to hit the player with his bare hands. So even if Gough did fire his arrow at supersonic speed the Chosen Undead will never get to dodge his arrows.

Now we do know that the game takes place in real time because of the the falling speed, jumping speed, and the audio.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Strength feat calc'd: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19644

However, if the hammer did weigh 3.14 tons it would snap, because the neck of the shaft wouldn't be able to support the head of the hammer.

So not only isn't the assumption that it's solid iron supported, it's outright contradicted by solid mechanics.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
By the way, the Grant's item description says that it requires "inhuman strength to wield." The item descriptions are just about as canon as it gets in DkSls. The max weight ever lifted by a human was over 1000 kg lifted by Louis Cyr. The grant weighs 24 imaginary units (or 4 less than Smough's hammer). Call me crazy, but I'm sensing a discrepancy in logic. Obviously I'm too "autistic" and "asinine" to figure this out myslef. Please explain this to me! I'm excited to see your response!

Secondly you're getting caught up on hyperbole by making a far too literal interpretations of adjectives used for immersive impact.

Either way, the Grant weigh as much as 8 Longswords.

Originally posted by Astner
The calculation is flawed because it contradicts other elements of the game.

If it was true, then that would mean that the game plays out in in slow-motion, and for reasons other than artistic effect it decides to speed to real time the moment the arrow is fired.

That said, Gough never uses the bow against the player. If turned hostile he'll try to hit the player with his bare hands. So even if Gough did fire his arrow at supersonic speed the Chosen Undead will never get to dodge his arrows.

Now we do know that the game takes place in real time because of the the falling speed, jumping speed, and the audio.

First and foremost, there's nothing that suggests that the hammer is made of iron, nor that it isn't hollow or filled with a lighter substance.

However, if the hammer did weigh 3.14 tons it would snap, because the neck of the shaft wouldn't be able to support the head of the hammer.

So not only isn't the assumption that it's solid iron supported, it's outright contradicted by solid mechanics.

Carrying a weapon isn't the same as making effective use of it in combat.

Secondly you're getting caught up on hyperbole by making a far too literal interpretations of adjectives used for immersive impact.

Either way, the Grant weigh as much as 8 Longswords.

There are other feats. He dodges the bolt traps in Sen's, the shockwaves created by the Iron Golem (making his speed hypersonic, but the math on that is shaky so I didn't use it) as well as dodging the Sunlight spear (which is shown in the intro to be thrown faster, but, again, unquantifiable).

Look, the thing you're missing is, IT'S A VIDEO GAME? About a fantasy world no less? Why does the audio play out at regular speed? Why does the audio play out at regular speed in DBZ or ANYTHING OTHER MEDIA INVOLVING SUPERHUMANLY FAST CHARACTERS? Ugh, this is really sounding desparate.

The best reason I can give you, Mr. Literal, is that, oh I don't know, he can move at super speed in shorter bursts? He dodges gigantic steel arrows that can't possibly move as slow as they do in game, because if they did, they would fall immediately and hurt NOTHING when fired at a 0 degree angle. This is backed up in a cutscene. Gough later gives you his bow and you can use it. And dodge its arrows when fired at you in PVP or when the Dragonslayer Great Arrows are fired at you by enemies.

The hammer is made of iron or possibly steel. We know this because iron exists in the Dark souls universe (that's what the Grant's made out of). So, its made of one or the other, seeing as those are the only two metals viable for hammers. Why would you assume it to be made of a different substance inside? Smough's hammer demolishes enormous concrete (oops, sorry, they might be made of syrofoam) pillars when he swings them, and your character can block them without flinching. Nope, no super strength there. And again, the handle would snap? NO REALLY? LOOK AT IT, IT'S CARTOONISHLY HUGE! It also happens to be a video game with dragons and magic.

Here's the item description for the Grant: "A legendary weapon of the Way of White,
granted to an Undead paladin long ago.

This mass of iron can only be lifted by those
with inhuman strength, but it is blessed,
and very effective against agents of Dark.

Ignore canon evidence if you want, but it seems pretty clear cut to me. To me, it sounds like you're trying to use literally EVERYTHING to say that a magical world in a video game doesn't make sense. I can do the same thing to Skyrim and the Dovahkiin. It's easy. But I won't, because that's not the point. I've lurked here and around the OBD for a while, and I thought people had stopped trying to apply our laws of logic and physics to fantasy worlds. You're a senior member. I'm just a newb. You should know better.

I also forgot about the Demon's Great Hammer.

Here's its description: "Demon weapon built from the stone archtrees. Used by lesser demons at North Undead Asylum.
This hammer is imbued with no special power, but will merrily beat foes to a pulp, provided you have the strength to wield it."

STONE is the word that pops out to me.

Here's the obligatory calc: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19986

But heck, for fun let's ignore MORE canon evidence? Sound fun?

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
There are other feats. He dodges the bolt traps in Sen's,

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
the shockwaves created by the Iron Golem

Furthermore, shock-waves are longitudinal and thus always omnidirectional while propagating through three-dimensional space.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
The best reason I can give you, Mr. Literal, is that, oh I don't know, he can move at super speed in shorter bursts?

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
He dodges gigantic steel arrows that can't possibly move as slow as they do in game, because if they did, they would fall immediately and hurt NOTHING when fired at a 0 degree angle. This is backed up in a cutscene.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Gough later gives you his bow and you can use it. And dodge its arrows when fired at you in PVP or when the Dragonslayer Great Arrows are fired at you by enemies.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
The hammer is made of iron or possibly steel. We know this because iron exists in the Dark souls universe (that's what the Grant's made out of). So, its made of one or the other, seeing as those are the only two metals viable for hammers.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Why would you assume it to be made of a different substance inside?

You can't just make up data where there is none.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Nope, no super strength there.

Even with the Black Knight Sword, the Chosen Undead only hurls the enemies a few feet into the air, and it's supposed to be an impressive attack.

Now if it was sound speed, it would've hurled the enemy max[340·t -½·9.8·t²] = 5,898 meters into the sky, or halfway through the troposphere. Granted, actual the distance would be reduced due to the drag, but it's still going to send the ****er through the clouds.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
And again, the handle would snap? NO REALLY? LOOK AT IT, IT'S CARTOONISHLY HUGE! It also happens to be a video game with dragons and magic.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Ignore canon evidence if you want, but it seems pretty clear cut to me.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
To me, it sounds like you're trying to use literally EVERYTHING to say that a magical world in a video game doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
I also forgot about the Demon's Great Hammer.

Here's its description: "Demon weapon built from the stone archtrees. Used by lesser demons at North Undead Asylum.
This hammer is imbued with no special power, but will merrily beat foes to a pulp, provided you have the strength to wield it."

STONE is the word that pops out to me.

Here's the obligatory calc: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19986

As for canon information, the game puts the human variant of the Demon's Great Hammer at 22.0 pounds less than 8 Longswords.

Originally posted by Astner
The bolt traps are based on the enemy projectile system, it's a product of flawed game mechanics.

So you're explanation of what should and shouldn't be considered gameplay mechanics is somehow more appropriate than mine? NONE of it makes sense. The guy casually dodges arrows but never runs at anything more than a trot. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and accepting his feats, and you're not, but at the same time you're ignoring his feats.

That's magic, in fact it's even referred to as the "blade of wind" in the description of the weapon.

True, I forgot about that. I knew there was something that didn't really work with that, so I didn't bring it up unless pressed for feats.

But not when he's running and jumping for some reason.

Again, it depends on perspective. There are contradictory feats. He avoids arrows and spells moving at similar speeds THROUGHOUT THE ENITRE GAME, but then he can't jump very far.

You do know that the trajectory of the enemies arrows isn't curved, right? On top of that they have a homing property.

Yes, but because gravity does exist here, they have to curve towards the ground, so being fired at a 0 degree angle at such a low speed would mean it would HAVE to almost immediately fall to the earth. They don't. Was this originally a gameplay anachronism? Yes. But like I've said a kajillion times before at this point, they ARE PROVEN to be effective weapons, by Gough and the Silver Knight Archers.

But Gough never uses it against you. In fact, your character can't even fire an arrow that far. So you can't use that as evidence.

It's the same bow and arrow, and would have the same properties regardless of its wielder. If you can fire it, you can fire it. There's nothing to suggest you can't fire it that far other than the fact that the game loses track of your projectile, or it crashes into a wall.

False dilemma.

What other metal then? I try not to assume, but seeing as iron is used in other weapons, I feel its a safe assumption. It's a weapon designed to kill things for pete's sake, its not going to be made of plastic.

I never said that the Chosen Undead wasn't superhumanly strong, I'm just saying that he's not strong enough to wield a three-ton hammer, because there's nothing in the game suggesting that he could.

He resists forces that are in excess of multiple tons regularly.

Well, you've yet to convince a single poster in this thread. Furthermore, you're the only one ignoring evidence in favor of a handful of crippled mechanics.

Last I checked you're the only one still responding. Not a single other poster challenged the feats I presented. They presented their own feats and I replied back accordingly.

There are various types of stone, all with different densities. On top of that we don't know if it's solid or hollow. In fact I would suspect the latter based of the Great Hollow area where you're literally walking through and archtree.

Why would a hammer be hollow? Oh and it's made from the bark, or maybe a root. He's not carrying the whole tree, only a part of it.

As for canon information, the game puts the human variant of the Demon's Great Hammer at 22.0 pounds less than 8 Longswords.

You say I'm using baseless crippled mechanics and yet you STILL use the weight system. That's hypocritical and you know it.

The point, as I see it, depends on your interpretation of feats and you're suspension of disbelief. You've attacked the feats I've used because it doesn't match up with how we play the game. Fair enough. The same goes for Skyrim and the Dovahkiin, where all his feats are based off of lore, and are completely contradicted during the game. We can apply the same sort of demolition logic to BOTH games. When finding feats, it all depends on your interpretation of the material.

I'm not convincing you, and you certainly aren't convincing me, so why don't we leave it at that?

It's funny, the guy who did these feats had a similar argument, wish I could find it.

Shoulda known I'd get flak from a Dickwraith! No wonder we disagree. I'm a Sunbro for life!

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
So you're explanation of what should and shouldn't be considered gameplay mechanics is somehow more appropriate than mine? NONE of it makes sense. The guy casually dodges arrows but never runs at anything more than a trot. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and accepting his feats, and you're not, but at the same time you're ignoring his feats.

True, I forgot about that. I knew there was something that didn't really work with that, so I didn't bring it up unless pressed for feats.

Again, it depends on perspective. There are contradictory feats. He avoids arrows and spells moving at similar speeds THROUGHOUT THE ENITRE GAME, but then he can't jump very far.

Yes, but because gravity does exist here, they have to curve towards the ground, so being fired at a 0 degree angle at such a low speed would mean it would HAVE to almost immediately fall to the earth. They don't. Was this originally a gameplay anachronism? Yes. But like I've said a kajillion times before at this point, they ARE PROVEN to be effective weapons, by Gough and the Silver Knight Archers.

It's the same bow and arrow, and would have the same properties regardless of its wielder. If you can fire it, you can fire it. There's nothing to suggest you can't fire it that far other than the fact that the game loses track of your projectile, or it crashes into a wall.

What other metal then? I try not to assume, but seeing as iron is used in other weapons, I feel its a safe assumption. It's a weapon designed to kill things for pete's sake, its not going to be made of plastic.

He resists forces that are in excess of multiple tons regularly.

Last I checked you're the only one still responding. Not a single other poster challenged the feats I presented. They presented their own feats and I replied back accordingly.

Why would a hammer be hollow? Oh and it's made from the bark, or maybe a root. He's not carrying the whole tree, only a part of it.

You say I'm using baseless crippled mechanics and yet you STILL use the weight system. That's hypocritical and you know it.

The point, as I see it, depends on your interpretation of feats and you're suspension of disbelief. You've attacked the feats I've used because it doesn't match up with how we play the game. Fair enough. The same goes for Skyrim and the Dovahkiin, where all his feats are based off of lore, and are completely contradicted during the game. We can apply the same sort of demolition logic to BOTH games. When finding feats, it all depends on your interpretation of the material.

I'm not convincing you, and you certainly aren't convincing me, so why don't we leave it at that?

It's funny, the guy who did these feats had a similar argument, wish I could find it.

We need background on the abilities to make them available, not see effect in game. If not, then every one hit KO Pokemon move should be able to win most matches. I didn't answer early because I simply wasn't checkin' on this

Originally posted by trexalfa
We need background on the abilities to make them available, not see effect in game. If not, then every one hit KO Pokemon move should be able to win most matches. I didn't answer early because I simply wasn't checkin' on this

You need both. To ignore one and take the other is cherry-picking. For instance, taking Astner's line of reasoning, who's to say all the lore in Skyrim is made up? All lies? That would be overly anal to disprove and preposterous, but think about it, does Unrelenting Force have showings ANYWHERE NEAR what they are in the lore? No. Lore showings in Skyrim and actual in-game showings are so far apart in power they BLATANTLY contradict each other. I always thought to take the highest reasonable showings that a character has. And besides, you never challenged my feats (nor did anyone else) before Astner showed up.

To add on to that, the lore in Skyrim all comes from books and first hand accounts by characters, who might be lying. We don't really know for sure! Do I actually subscribe to that line of reasoning, no, that's silly and ruins the fun of having these debates, I'm just trying to point out that there are multiple ways of interpreting facts. There are always going to be inconsistencies. Do you ignore some to give your character the best chance without wanking? Or do you accept only what's immediately, irrefutably obvious? In my time spent lurking, its usually the former.

But in all seriousness, Astner, I'm digging the new profile pic.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
So you're explanation of what should and shouldn't be considered gameplay mechanics is somehow more appropriate than mine?

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
The guy casually dodges arrows but never runs at anything more than a trot. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and accepting his feats, and you're not, but at the same time you're ignoring his feats.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Again, it depends on perspective. There are contradictory feats. He avoids arrows and spells moving at similar speeds THROUGHOUT THE ENITRE GAME, but then he can't jump very far.

We've been over this a number of times already, the jumping mechanic is real-time with physics-abiding curvature.

The trajectory system is for non-playable characters is different form that of players. And neither of which directly supports your claims.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Yes, but because gravity does exist here, they have to curve towards the ground, so being fired at a 0 degree angle at such a low speed would mean it would HAVE to almost immediately fall to the earth. They don't. Was this originally a gameplay anachronism? Yes. But like I've said a kajillion times before at this point, they ARE PROVEN to be effective weapons, by Gough and the Silver Knight Archers.

On top of that, your argument isn't even coherent as you're not able to test your dodging against Gough's bowmanship to begin with.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
It's the same bow and arrow, and would have the same properties regardless of its wielder. If you can fire it, you can fire it. There's nothing to suggest you can't fire it that far other than the fact that the game loses track of your projectile, or it crashes into a wall.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
What other metal then? I try not to assume, but seeing as iron is used in other weapons, I feel its a safe assumption.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
It's a weapon designed to kill things for pete's sake, its not going to be made of plastic.

That said, a 28.0 lbs hammer would deal fatal blows.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
He resists forces that are in excess of multiple tons regularly.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Why would a hammer be hollow? Oh and it's made from the bark, or maybe a root. He's not carrying the whole tree, only a part of it.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
The point, as I see it, depends on your interpretation of feats and you're suspension of disbelief.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
I'm not convincing you, and you certainly aren't convincing me, so why don't we leave it at that?

Originally posted by Astner
When an aspect of gameplay that should abide by the laws of physics—such as the trajectory of projectiles—don't, then it falls under game mechanics.

Oh wow, a work of fiction blatantly ignores an aspect of the laws of physics, I've never seen that before. The laws of physics are broken too often in these fictions that are debated to be handled so conservatively. So let me see, because of this, the arrows can no longer be considered deadly, fast moving weapons, despite definitive lore saying the opposite. If something is supported by lore but denied by game mechanics, are you really saying it's no longer viable? Lore (the kind told DIRECTLY by the game designers to the player in the form of item descriptions, not character to character)>>>>>>>>>>>>>In-game inconsistencies

No it doesn't. You don't get to cherry-pick what feats to accept and ignore. We've been over this a number of times already, the jumping mechanic is real-time with physics-abiding curvature.

So because of the jumping mechanic, all of the conflicting evidence must be tossed to the wind? You literally IGNORED the common-place feat I just provided you, and followed it up by saying that I'm ignoring feats. There are inconsistencies, why don't you get that?

On top of that, your argument isn't even coherent as you're not able to test your dodging against Gough's bowmanship to begin with.

You're tested by the silver knight archers and pvp opponents, and for the bow to be effective, it's speed and power would have to be comparable to Gough's bow. Gough wasn't the ONLY one sniping dragons after all. Besides, Gough's bowmanship is defined by his insane accuracy. Remember, he made that shot against Kalameet while blind.

Yes there is. The rage of Gough's Greatbow for players is 55 meters. You can barely get an arrow across the Township.

Could'ja link me to that? Never heard that before. It's not of much importance though, seeing as though it clearly moves farther than that in the cutscene.

[list=1][*]Not all weapons in the game are made of iron, the Gargoyle Halberd for one is made out of bronze.
[*]Smough's Hammer is golden-colored.
[*]The shaft wouldn't support the head if it was solid iron.[/list]
Conclusion: It's irrational to assume that it's made out of iron.

Very true, but it's made out of SOME metal, yes? Probably not plastic or pillows. Like I said before, the size ratio of the head and the shaft is so huge, that NO METAL would be able to support that weight without snapping. And besides, the respective densities of bronze, iron, and steel (the three most likely candidates) aren't that different. It still weighs tons of tons.

I don't care what it's made of. We're given a number for its weight, 28.0 lbs—excuse me, the weight of 9.33 Longswords.

That said, a 28.0 lbs hammer would deal fatal blows.

And now look who's basing their arguments off of gameplay mechanics! The weight system is a product of the fact that it's an RPG VIDEO GAME. At least with the arrows there's debate because it's taking place within the game world. With the stats system, it clearly isn't, unless you think the CU could look up at his HUD to check his health? Please stop bringing up the weight system. It's completely hypocritical and discredits the point you're trying to make (not to use gameplay mechanics).

No, he never does.

Yes, he does. You're not honestly telling me that the plethora of enormous beasts he tanks regularly aren't within the multi-ton range? Come on!

Ugh, http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19094

The only Archtree we see in the game is hollow.

What does that even mean? The Asylum Demon isn't hefting around an ENTIRE TREE. If he was, then there'd be a case for it being hollow (but it'd still be heavy as all hell). He's using (presumably) the bark (or maybe a root, it's all made of stone anyway). A piece of the tree that small wouldn't be hollow. The hollow areas are MASSIVE. It's made of a piece broken off.

No it doesn't. The Chosen Undead was never meant to move superhumanly fast.

Evidence? Did I miss a quote by Miyazaki or something? You can't make that claim honestly.

Whether you choose to acknowledge that you're wrong or not is irrelevant because the nature of a debate isn't to reach a consensus. It's to prove that your arguments hold up to scrutiny, which in your case they don't.

You're the one that took two weeks to respond, not me. I realize you probably have other things to do than argue about fictional characters online, as do I, but you're "scrutiny" is often contradictory.

Originally posted by Astner
The calculation is flawed because it contradicts other elements of the game.

If it was true, then that would mean that the game plays out in in slow-motion, and for reasons other than artistic effect it decides to speed to real time the moment the arrow is fired.

That said, Gough never uses the bow against the player. If turned hostile he'll try to hit the player with his bare hands. So even if Gough did fire his arrow at supersonic speed the Chosen Undead will never get to dodge his arrows.

Now we do know that the game takes place in real time because of the the falling speed, jumping speed, and the audio.

First and foremost, there's nothing that suggests that the hammer is made of iron, nor that it isn't hollow or filled with a lighter substance.

However, if the hammer did weigh 3.14 tons it would snap, because the neck of the shaft wouldn't be able to support the head of the hammer.

So not only isn't the assumption that it's solid iron supported, it's outright contradicted by solid mechanics.

Carrying a weapon isn't the same as making effective use of it in combat.

Secondly you're getting caught up on hyperbole by making a far too literal interpretations of adjectives used for immersive impact.

Either way, the Grant weigh as much as 8 Longswords.

👆

Awesome.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Oh wow, a work of fiction blatantly ignores an aspect of the laws of physics, I've never seen that before. The laws of physics are broken too often in these fictions that are debated to be handled so conservatively. So let me see, because of this, the arrows can no longer be considered deadly, fast moving weapons, despite definitive lore saying the opposite.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
So because of the jumping mechanic, all of the conflicting evidence must be tossed to the wind?

It's a poor argument to begin with, and in the light of the mountain of contradicting evidence it's justifies dismissing it.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
You're tested by the silver knight archers and pvp opponents, and for the bow to be effective, it's speed and power would have to be comparable to Gough's bow.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Gough wasn't the ONLY one sniping dragons after all.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Could'ja link me to that? Never heard that before.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Very true, but it's made out of SOME metal, yes? Probably not plastic or pillows. Like I said before, the size ratio of the head and the shaft is so huge, that NO METAL would be able to support that weight without snapping.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
And besides, the respective densities of bronze, iron, and steel (the three most likely candidates) aren't that different. It still weighs tons of tons.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
And now look who's basing their arguments off of gameplay mechanics! The weight system is a product of the fact that it's an RPG VIDEO GAME.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
At least with the arrows there's debate because it's taking place within the game world. With the stats system, it clearly isn't, unless you think the CU could look up at his HUD to check his health?

If they went through the trouble of finding the actual weights of Rapiers, Shortswords, Longswords, Bastard Swords, Claymores, etc. then it's not just a meaningless number.

Health, Stamina, etc. are abstract values though.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Yes, he does. You're not honestly telling me that the plethora of enormous beasts he tanks regularly aren't within the multi-ton range? Come on!

Ugh, http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19094

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
What does that even mean? The Asylum Demon isn't hefting around an ENTIRE TREE.

Originally posted by swandivelmeistr
Evidence? Did I miss a quote by Miyazaki or something? You can't make that claim honestly.