Originally posted by operator616Yes it was; I can’t really believe you actually think that marvel has beings (since
there are alt. versions of him) "millions of times more powerful than everyone
combined" running around.
Originally posted by operator616here's the handbook again, and read it more carefully, in the end it says that
what is shown at any given moment is possibly true:
http://i.imgur.com/LQIX5IS.jpg?1
.......meaning beyonder being an inhuman mutant is most likely true. That along
with the encyclopedia (which reaffirms the on panel retcon), should settle it.
Also, lol at encyclopedias or bios settling anything.
Originally posted by operator616According to you, the 2006 handbooks re-retcon the beyonder into his original
self. So consider this:
It was established that molecule man and the beyonder are less powerful than
eternity and the living tribunal in the issue where they merged, those same 2006
handbooks (along with Beyonder’s latest 2009 encyclopedia bio) have a reference
to that event, which includes the MM's statement.
Beyonder lost to MM in FFA 27, confirmed by the handbooks and the encyclopedia.
Originally posted by operator616Annihilation: silver surfer #3, Galactus says that Tenebrous and Aegis are a far
worse threat than the Beyonder, and again: those same 2006 handbooks and the
encyclopedia have a reference to that event as well.
In fact, based on showings, T & A & even G, are all a jokes to Beyonder (pre or post)
Originally posted by operator616His beyond realm is now a pocket universe (which are limited in spatial size),
and confirmed by a 2009 bio.
On Panel > Bios.
Originally posted by operator616I could list more but I hope you get the general idea. And im not even bringing up
the whole alternate versions thing, which makes it impossible for the beyonder to
be at that power-level.
Originally posted by operator616So, you want us to just ……..throw those showings out of the window??? That’s
not how it works and you know that.
Post SW Beyonder’s average isn't equal to his old self in terms of power levels
(despite the fact that nothing – except for the celestials battle - has been retconned) [/B]
"In that moment I gained the powers ...
I was Everywhere ... and Everything ... and Everyone ...
In that moment, which is this moment. I remade all of creation."
----------------------------------------
"The power I now possess reaches into the Past, the Future, All Time and Space"
Originally posted by operator616Apparently, handbooks and encyclopedias acknowledge the "wtf comedy".
Next.
--------------------------------------------------
Anyway, lol, at all these conclusions based on handbooks.
--------------------------------------------------
Handbooks will Never alter on panel facts,
and Hickman presented Four different Alternate Beyonders,
and they all followed the Secret Wars scenario,
and they were always from Beyond!
(on panel - 2010)
---------------------------------------
Oh, and Doom/Infinity Gauntlet "What If" where he took Beyonder's power,
it was a What IF Alternate diverged Reality,
but Beyonder was from Beyond there likewise.
(on panel -2009)
They even use exact illustrations from the original SW1, and the dialogue is verbatim.
The story follows the original Secret Wars account without skipping a beat.
Like 616 Doom never actually having been in Secret Wars I, since his original body
was atomized by Terrax back in 1983 (1 Year Before SW1 was published)
Doom's mind/soul was within Norman McArthur's body just like in the original telling.
Again ... Same ol' historical Beyonder, only from an alternate reality.
++++++++++++++++++
Doom (with ONLY Beyonder's power) had some interesting moments:
He sees into Nine Hundred Ninety Nine Trillion Futures, from the start: (1 future = 1 universe)
[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16791895_Beyonder_Doom1.jpg]
He claims to be the most powerful being in This, (alternate) or Any Universe:
[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16791896_Beyonder_Doom2.jpg]
He appears to have omnipresence:
[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16791897_Beyonder_Doom3.jpg]
That Celestial horde must've been bad ass to stalemate this power for so long.
---------------------------------------
We also have the 2010 Spidey mini which highlights details we never saw in the original SW1,
yet again, the Beyonder is from "Beyond"
---------------------------------------
You'll notice none of these instances even alludes, even indirectly, anything that
correlates Beyonder to Inhuman/Mutants.
Actually, Inhumans did appear in the What If ... getting owned by Doom, that's it.
^^ They're just being cute. 🙂
Sol's Anvil thingy means little relating to some alternate Beyonder,
since these "Alternates" come in varying levels of power and/or durability.
This "alternate" Beyonder seems to get killed here: (in some retarded reality obviously)
[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792205_B1.jpg]
So colt 6 shooter > all 😂
But in all seriousness you see my point friend.
I was being a smarty pants at first, but the Sol's Anvil analogy does hold weight.
I mean, if you believe that Celestials are > 616 Beyonder/cube beings(which was outright stated on panel in F4 Annual #26), then it is only logical to assume Sol's Anvil > 616 Beyonder as well, given that it wrecked the Voltron Celestial, which was much, much more powerful than the group of 4 individual Mad Celestials-- and remember, individual Celestials are preforming multiversal feats these days, which lends further credence to the notion that they are > 616 Beyonder.
Originally posted by Mr Master
😐 ... No one ever said Beyonder's Alternates = real Beyonder.I told ya I saw the first time around, it still says absolutely nothing substantial.
Also, lol at encyclopedias or bios settling anything.
Beyonder lost to Owen, confirmed by On Panel events.
I don't need any outside source to confirm that.
It was also confirmed on panel,
that Owen's power catapulted above Beyonder's (or any Cube being) due to his Humanity.
Evidently, the fraction of Beyonder's energy was suffice to give Owen this destiny.On Panel ... Beyonder's reality looked just like 616 and was infinite.
On Panel > Bios.
List more? I'm still waiting on a single concrete supportive reference for this silly
idea of Beyonder being an Inhuman/Mutant.
Also, bring up anything your wish,
although again, no one said alternate Beyonders are = to the original.Beyonder doesn't have to be at classic levels to be All Powerful:
"In that moment I gained the powers ...
I was Everywhere ... and Everything ... and Everyone ...
In that moment, which is this moment. [b]I remade all of creation
."----------------------------------------
"The power I now possess reaches into the Past, the Future, All Time and Space"
On Panel > Bios
[/B]
yet you're using an alternate version of him (the what if? issue) to show how powerful he is.
Still, way to miss the point: you're saying that marvel has a pre retcon beyonder running around..........which is ridiculous to say the least.
Lol indeed, when the retcon happened on panel, no? The bios and handbooks confirm the retcon.
oh i know that Beyonder losing to Owen happened on panel but apparently, you dismissed post retcon Beyonder being < LT since that happened in 1994, while the handbooks are 2006 and on. So....what im doing here is showing you that not only the secret wars events were never retconned and are referenced in the bios but his post retcon low showings were referenced in the SAME handbooks as well.
Fine, if you want on panel then so be it: On panel....Kubik held beyonder's universe with 1 hand:
http://i.imgur.com/vKbK04H.jpg
--
Master edition handbook: beyonder's energies exploded into his pocket universe:
http://i.imgur.com/IXTcUPn.jpg?1
2007 handbook: Pocket universes are LIMITED in spatial size:
http://i.imgur.com/X19ZJ5x.jpg?1
infinite, huh? sure, sure.
the beyonder retcon happened on panel, if you don't acknowledge the bios then acknowledge the on panel evidence. And im still waiting for that interview, y'know. Something tells me it doesn't exist.
The spiderman and secret wars mini was written by Jim Shooter, it's not a surprise really, he had him described as being literally God in an interview, after all.
Now let us put Shooter aside, and see how Beyonder was portrayed. Let's take Thor annual #14, for instance:
http://i.imgur.com/i7yuWCj.jpg?1
it says that he isn't even a galaxy buster (which is why it tells us that this is an illusion, though the galaxy busting feat was directly referenced in the marvel legacies handbook, in battleworld's own page, no less), goes on and compare him to odin, and clearly says that his power is not the greatest in the cosmos.
Originally posted by Mr Master
--------------------------------------------------Anyway, lol, at all these conclusions based on handbooks.
--------------------------------------------------
Handbooks will Never alter on panel facts,
!
and Hickman presented Four different Alternate Beyonders,
and they all followed the Secret Wars scenario,
and [b]they were always from Beyond(on panel - 2010)
---------------------------------------
Oh, and Doom/Infinity Gauntlet "What If" where he took Beyonder's power,
it was a What IF Alternate diverged Reality,
but Beyonder was from Beyond there likewise.(on panel -2009)
They even use exact illustrations from the original SW1, and the dialogue is verbatim.
The story follows the original Secret Wars account without skipping a beat.
Like 616 Doom never actually having been in Secret Wars I, since his original body
was atomized by Terrax back in 1983 (1 Year Before SW1 was published)
Doom's mind/soul was within Norman McArthur's body just like in the original telling.Again ... Same ol' historical Beyonder, only from an alternate reality.
++++++++++++++++++
Doom (with ONLY Beyonder's power) had some interesting moments:
He sees into Nine Hundred Ninety Nine Trillion Futures, from the start: (1 future = 1 universe)
He claims to be the most powerful being in This, (alternate) or Any Universe:
He appears to have omnipresence:
That Celestial horde must've been bad ass to stalemate this power for so long.
---------------------------------------
We also have the 2010 Spidey mini which highlights details we never saw in the original SW1,
yet again, the Beyonder is from "Beyond"---------------------------------------
You'll notice none of these instances even alludes, even indirectly, anything that
correlates Beyonder to Inhuman/Mutants.
Actually, Inhumans did appear in the What If ... getting owned by Doom, that's it. [/B]
....didn't you just say that beyonder was returned into his old-self because of the handbooks? yet you laugh at them when they don't suit you?
Funny you should post those scans, when it took doom many years to battle the celestials, when in Beyonder's case it took a couple of panels.
Originally posted by Galan007
I was being a smarty pants at first, but the Sol's Anvil analogy does hold weight.I mean, if you believe that Celestials are > 616 Beyonder/cube
beings(which was outright stated on panel in F4 Annual #26), then it is
only logical to assume Sol's Anvil > 616 Beyonder as well, given that
it wrecked the Voltron Celestial, which was much, much more
powerful than the group of 4 individual Mad Celestials-- and
remember, individual Celestials are preforming multiversal feats these
days, which lends further credence to the notion that they are > 616
Beyonder.
Interesting thing is Galan,
the very next year (1994) the same Writer had Owen and beyonder participating in a trans-multiversal feat as you well know.
He also has Beyonder state: that in all the myriad MultiverseS only his power exceeds Owen's:
[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792330_Cube_beings_retcon4.jpg]
Then Kaminski tells us via Owen, that his power has increased dramatically
after he released his limitations:
[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792332_Cube_beings_retcon4-1.jpg]
---------------------------------------------
That's the same Writer making characters claim something different
one year later.
There's no reason for me to ever think Cube beings are/were below Celestials
before or after FFA#26.
Originally posted by Mr MasterYou meant to post this scan, I think:
Interesting thing is Galan,
the very next year (1994) the same Writer had Owen and beyonder participating in a trans-multiversal feat as you well know.
He also has Beyonder state: that in all the myriad MultiverseS only his power exceeds Owen's:[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792330_Cube_beings_retcon4.jpg]
However, it was later revealed in the same comic(by Owen), that Beyonder is basically an idiot that still has yet to grasp the concept of varying levels of infinite power that exist in Marvel...
Owen: "There are infinities beyond your narrow, limited perception--that your own delusions of grandeur will ever prevent you from fully comprehending!":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792357/1.jpg.html
This is the same lesson Kubik tried teaching Beyonder(under the guise of Kosmos) a year prior... To no avail, it would seem:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792358/2.jpg.html
Originally posted by Mr MasterThis has nothing to do with Beyonder's power, though.
Then Kaminski tells us via Owen, that his power has increased dramatically
after he released his limitations:[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792332_Cube_beings_retcon4-1.jpg]
Originally posted by Mr MasterAs I've shown you above, the same writer, in the same issue, had Owen tell us that Beyonder cannot wrap his head around the concept of transinfinite levels of power. Therefore, Beyonder's claims regarding his self-proclaimed 'omnipotence' are not reliable.
That's the same Writer making characters claim something different
one year later.There's no reason for me to ever think Cube beings are/were below Celestials
before or after FFA#26.
Aside from that, Kubik and Kosmos/Beyonder were terrified of a Celestial's judgement:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792374/3.jpg.html
Additionally, Kubik outright stated that a Celestial possessed a transinfinite level of power many orders of magnitude beyond his/their own:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792408/4.jpg.html
Kubik [also] stated that the Celestials could have easily destroyed Kosmos/Beyonder when he confronted them on their Homeworld during SW, but opted not to:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792409/5.jpg.html
So yeah, I'd say more evidence than not suggests Celestials>cube beings/Beyonder, but w/e.
^^ 👆 ... He took on them with just Beyonder's power half way through the book though.
Originally posted by operator616yet you're using an alternate version of him (the what if?
issue) to show how powerful he is.
Nice deflection though.
Originally posted by operator616Still, way to miss the point: you're saying that marvel has a
pre retcon beyonder running around..........which is ridiculous to
say the least.
Lol indeed, when the retcon happened on panel, no? The bios and
handbooks confirm the retcon.
LOL indeed, indeed!
Originally posted by operator616oh i know that Beyonder losing to Owen happened on panel but
apparently, you dismissed post retcon Beyonder being < LT since
that happened in 1994, while the handbooks are 2006 and on.
So....what im doing here is showing you that not only the secret
wars events were never retconned and are referenced in the bios
but his post retcon low showings were referenced in the SAME
handbooks as well.
In fact, I replied to Galan and said " I THINK that's an Alternate"
Pay attention son.
And yur not showing me anything that tells me Beyonder is an Inhuman/Mutant.
Originally posted by operator616Fine, if you want on panel then so be it: On panel....Kubik held
beyonder's universe with 1 hand:
http://i.imgur.com/vKbK04H.jpginfinite, huh? sure, sure.
On Panel,
Doom/FF, travelled through the "Cross Roads of Infinity"
to reach Beyonder's Universe:
You do know what the "Cross Roads" are?
It's a major infinite Nexus that leads to the infinite Universes, Not pockets.
Let me know if you need scans.
Anyway, Doom and Co. pass by many Universes to reach
Beyonder's which is at the edge. Here are a few UniverseS depicted:
[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792452_Beyonders_Universe2.jpg]
[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792453_Beyonders_Universe3.jpg]
"Before us lies our final Universe" (Not pocket)
---------------------------------
It's no different in appearance to 616,
heck they thought they entered 616:
"Our own Universe" (Not pocket)
[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792455_Beyonders_Universe5.jpg]
"Anybody else feel the Universe blink?" (Not pocket)
[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792456_Beyonders_Universe6.jpg]
"You feel the Universe shift, because the Universe is all me" (Not pocket)
---------------------------------
LOL, even Owen Reece lets it be known that he himself is Infinite!
Also, when Beyonder himself claims he is Infinite, no one says otherwise:
[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792458_Beyonders_Universe8.jpg]
Originally posted by operator616And im still waiting for that interview, y'know. Something tells
me it doesn't exist.
That aside, still looking for any on panel existence of any kind that
substantiates Beyonder being an Inhuman/Mutant.
Originally posted by operator616The spiderman and secret wars mini was written by Jim
Shooter, it's not a surprise really, he had him described as being
literally God in an interview, after all.Now let us put Shooter aside,
and see how Beyonder was portrayed. Let's take Thor annual #14, for instance:
http://i.imgur.com/i7yuWCj.jpg?1
it says that he isn't even a galaxy buster (which is why it tells us
that this is an illusion, though the galaxy busting feat was directly
referenced in the marvel legacies handbook, in battleworld's own
page, no less), goes on and compare him to odin, and clearly says
that his power is not the greatest in the cosmos.
Jim Shootter had absolutely nothing to do with this re-telling.
So, Shooter's been put aside, and this so-called "portrayal" is laughable.
That's No portrayal, that's Thor (Roy Thomas) talking shit
about what HE thinks concerning these beings.
"Portrayal?" ... Beyonder didn't even appear in that issue or had anything to do with it.
Originally posted by Mr MasterThat would mean he would have left the battle to go acquire the Infinity Gems.
^^ 👆 ... He took on them with just Beyonder's power half way through the book though.
He got the Infinity Gems like 3 months before the fight. Everything in the book happened before the battle, except when he healed the Earth.
The only indication that the Gems were gone was after the battle was over. Which means he burnt the Infinity Gems up, and almost all of Beyonder's power in that fight.
Which means the Celestials were written like absolute forces in that book.
Originally posted by zopzopYes.
Wait just one minute. Wasn't he the one that wrote the JiM arc that had all the Hell Lords in fear of the wackass Serpent and made Surtur into a potential universe buster?
But I'm not talking about that, just his Celestial work. The Godkiller arc, Mr Sinister taking Tiamut's head and all the fun that came with that (though he did kind of make up for it with the P5 arc)...
It would have been interesting to see his thoughts on Celestials and the Serpent though considering that.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yes.But I'm not talking about that, just his Celestial work. The Godkiller arc, Mr Sinister taking Tiamut's head and all the fun that came with that (though he did kind of make up for it with the P5 arc)...
It would have been interesting to see his thoughts on Celestials and the Serpent though considering that.
![[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16791895_Beyonder_Doom1.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16791895/Beyonder_Doom1.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16791896_Beyonder_Doom2.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16791896/Beyonder_Doom2.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16791897_Beyonder_Doom3.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16791897/Beyonder_Doom3.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792205_B1.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792205/B1.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792330_Cube_beings_retcon4.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792330/Cube_beings_retcon4.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792332_Cube_beings_retcon4-1.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792332/Cube_beings_retcon4-1.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792452_Beyonders_Universe2.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792452/Beyonders_Universe2.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792453_Beyonders_Universe3.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792453/Beyonders_Universe3.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792455_Beyonders_Universe5.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792455/Beyonders_Universe5.jpg.html){kind=link}
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![[img=http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792458_Beyonders_Universe8.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792458/Beyonders_Universe8.jpg.html){kind=link}