OWAW Superman/WarHulk vs Odinfirce Thor/Voidsentry

Originally posted by dial J for Josh
WWH who stalemated one of the weakest versions of Sentry is not defeating the void. And before anyone brings up the fact that he went world breaker right after does not apply because the op has locked him to WWH only.

The weakest. LOL... Sentry himself stated that he had to use every ounce of power he had to take down Hulk. Also, Sentry during that time was still classified as one of the most powerful being on the planet. Sentry never went all out again after his fight against WWH.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Hulk cannot beat the Void here.

Void isn't above getting physically punched to sleep.

Originally posted by carver9
Void isn't above getting physically punched to sleep.

Originally posted by quanchi112
When has it happened ?

When Cap shield hurt him and Thor hammer toss damaged him.

Originally posted by carver9
When Cap shield hurt him and Thor hammer toss damaged him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That did not ko him that just hit him. Huge difference. 😂

It hurt him which is my point. He was damaged my friend.

Originally posted by carver9
It hurt him which is my point. He was damaged my friend.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That isn't proving they can ko him. He has hurt himself and reformed at will. He has not been ko'd from complete destruction so there is no evidence as to back your claim.

So you're saying that if a guy can be physically damaged he can't be koed? WTF.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
IIRC, this particular point was alluded to even in the recent MoS movie, wherein it's mentioned that Krypton's gravity was much higher than Earth's.

That gravity thing has always been one of my favorite sources for when researching how Superman's powers work from a semi-realistic perspective, but of course in a fictional context.

Speaking of which, @OneDumbG0: Did you note down the parallels that were often drawn based on this particular gravity based physical superiority between Superman and John Carter? The early Superman character had so many inspirations from other previously existing characters, it's not even funny.

I think the coming from higher gravity or to going to a lower gravity was the "flavor of the day" at that time. They have tried to explain superman's powers in hundreds of ways. That was just one of them at the time.

All those baby feats are probably based off of Hercules killing the 2 snakes while in his crib.

I'll admit that I wasn't aware of Hugo Danner. I googled "worst rip off superhero characters" and superman came as number 4. The post I read, it was obvious that the guy making the comparison hated superman.

This back and forth has piqued my curiosity and I'm going to pick up "Gladiator" if nothing more than to find out the thought process of a writer from the 30's

Originally posted by carver9
The weakest. LOL... Sentry himself stated that he had to use every ounce of power he had to take down Hulk. Also, Sentry during that time was still classified as one of the most powerful being on the planet. Sentry never went all out again after his fight against WWH.

Sentry was not at his best. The unique concept about sentry (almost similar to gladiator) is that his power/energy level fluctuates depending on his psychological state. In context of the WWH story arc Bob clearly told Tony that he did not want to be apart of the incident due to his agoraphobia, and the guy clearly did not want to fight at all. Now with the whole Sentry going "all out" thing, sure that is one thing that we can agree on, but Sentry was not fighting to win. If sentry's agoraphobia was not acting up on that specific day, and if he came to that fight on his a-game and determined to win utilizing his powerset which gives him a clear advantage, things would have turned out a lot differently. Sentry at his HIGHEST would have definitely performed better. WWH Sentry was pis at its finest.

I believe Sentry could have performed better vs Hulk, that does not change the fact that Hulk beat the sh1t out of him.

Though I have to give Sentry his props for letting Hulk unload his rage on his face and to Hulk for burning out Sentry's power.

Now back on topic

Superman soloes

Good ole Hulk. Fists>Everything.

Some of the comparisons made are just laughable BTW. Superboy breaking Pete Ross' arm in front of Lana Lang happened in First year of superman comics when Lana Lang was created in 1946 as a substitute for Lois Lane and Pete Ross was created in 1961.

Superman being from a farm from Kansas didn't happen untill 60's. He was raised in a rural area but it wasn't specified where.

Superman lifting a tractor in retellings is ripping off Hugo Danner? Hahaha.

Fortress Of Solitude was created by Otto Binder in Action Comics 241 in 1958, not by siegel and shuster.

Don't take anyone's words on it. Read for yourself what actual comic historians think. None of them think that Superman was based on Hugo Danner, Siegel and Shuster acknowledged that Doc Savage was an inspiration for superman.

http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/review_essays/feeley95.htm

Comics creator and historian Jim Steranko believes that the pulp hero Doc Savage is another likely source of inspiration, noting similarities between Shuster's initial art and contemporary advertisements for Doc Savage: "Initially, Superman was a variation of pulp heavyweight Doc Savage".[44] Steranko argued that the pulps played a major part in shaping the initial concept: "Siegel's Superman concept embodied and amalgamated three separate and distinct themes: the visitor from another planet, the superhuman being and the dual identity. He composed the Superman charisma by exploiting all three elements, and all three contributed equally to the eventual success of the strip. His inspiration, of course, came from the science fiction pulps"

Other historians who have viewed Doc Savage as inspiration for superman are Joel Dinerstein, De La Pena etc.

Siegel and Shuster themselves cited Doc Savage and John Carter as inspirations for superman.

Siegel and Shuster have themselves discussed a number of influences that impacted upon the character. Both were avid readers, and their mutual love of science fiction helped to drive their friendship. Siegel cited John Carter stories as an influence: "Carter was able to leap great distances because the planet Mars was smaller that the planet Earth; and he had great strength. I visualized the planet Krypton as a huge planet, much larger than Earth".

Was superman an original idea? Of course not. But to label him as a ripoff of Hugo Danner based on things published literally decades later is sheer hating on the character. In fact Gladiator was a totally flopped novel which sold only 2568 copies and literally nobody took notice of it. Not my words.

After carefully comparing all the various versions, I have concluded that Siegel and Shuster’s Superman is more likely indebted to such costumed and fancifully-named crusaders as Zorro and the Scarlet Pimpernel than to Philip Wylie’s melancholy and aimless figure, and that Gladiator—which, far from being the commercial success Moskowitz assumes, sold only 2,568 copies (Keefer 46) upon publication and was not widely read until an Avon paperback appeared in 1949—may not have been an influence at all. What points of similarity do exist—both Wylie and Siegel explain their protagonists’ super-powers by citing the abilities of ants and grasshoppers to perform great feats relative to their body size; both characters tear the door off a bank vault—do not require direct influence to account for them. Neither is the idea of a man with super-strength—“a character like Samson, Hercules and all the strong men I ever heard of rolled into one,” as Siegel put it (qtd. in Petrou)—so striking that Wylie’s influence alone could explain it. The belief that Gladiator represents the sole source, rather than one possible source, for Superman seems to derive from Sam Moskowitz’s uncritical acceptance of a claim about paraphrased dialogue.

The creators actually mentioned the inspirations for the character like Doc Savage, John Carter, Hercules and Samson. If they actually ripped off Gladiator why is there no mention of it?

Sorry pr, just my two words on this.

Originally posted by dial J for Josh
Sentry was not at his best. The unique concept about sentry (almost similar to gladiator) is that his power/energy level fluctuates depending on his psychological state. In context of the WWH story arc Bob clearly told Tony that he did not want to be apart of the incident due to his agoraphobia, and the guy clearly did not want to fight at all. Now with the whole Sentry going "all out" thing, sure that is one thing that we can agree on, but Sentry was not fighting to win. If sentry's agoraphobia was not acting up on that specific day, and if he came to that fight on his a-game and determined to win utilizing his powerset which gives him a clear advantage, things would have turned out a lot differently. Sentry at his HIGHEST would have definitely performed better. WWH Sentry was pis at its finest.

You know, it fulls my heart with happiness, when I see someone grasping the character of the Sentry, and even more if I was maybe the one to lead them to the right direction.

Just to support your summary with even more information, Josh, I'll provide more on that topic for carver9 :-)

Here is why WW Hulk was facing Sentry at one of his lowest moments:

Robert Reynolds also known as the Sentry is an ill man. He is a diagnosed schizophrenic with generalized anxiety disorder and agoraphobia. His illness plays an important role, when it comes to his power level and here is why:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3189038-1234124.jpg

The important part is highlighted yellow. As you can see his creator stats that if he is in a stable mind-set, he is basically invincible. But if his mental state wavers, his power level sinks and something like that was very obvious throughout his appearances in the comics, but before we get to that one, we have to cover up why his power level is affected by his mental state and for that we have to talk about his illness...

Diagnosed schizophrenia:

This part does not have all tooooo much to do with his power-set but more so with who the character is. Few symptoms of schizophrenia are hallucinations (which in Sentry's case manifest as the Void), lack of motivation (which he displayed every now and then) and even moments of a catatonic state (which he displayed during Collective's rampage, but that will be covered up as well).

Generalized anxiety disorder:

This part now already starts explaining the inconsistency of his power-level, which were affected by his mental illness. Anxiety disorder has quite a few of symptoms and Sentry displayed many of them, like for example apprehension (since he was sometimes terrified by his own power), fear (since he was sometimes afraid of the Void), and all of that can affect ones physical and psychological health, which was certainly the case for the Sentry. Even though he had all that power his mind was still affected by the illness and when it overcame him, his power-level sank as the side-effect.

Agoraphobia:

As if that was not enough, he also suffers from agoraphobia.
To make it short: Agoraphobia is a phobia, that makes you feeling uncomfortable and threatened, if you're in a crowded, or wide-open space, where you wouldn't really have a chance to hide to avoid the uneasiness. Additionally to that one is afraid of getting a panic attack in such locations and to avoid such moments the suffering person usually tries to go greatest lenghts to avoid such moments, or they're even unable to leave their home.

This of course happened in comics:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3189060-2.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3189061-1.jpg

The first instance shows Tony Stark talking to Sentry about his mental state. He knows that Sentry could end up feeling uncomfortable and having a panic attack at the location where they were going.

The second instance took place during the World War Hulk saga, where Sentry was unable to leave his home, because of the agoraphobia.
He was in such a weak mental state, that he was literally standing in his doorway for 29 hours and he stayed at home even for a longer period of time, since later on he was sitting around and watching Hulk's rampage in the television. He decided to enter the fight, when it looked like Hulk was finally going to kill the heroes and that fight was a good indicator just how powerful the Sentry even in a weak mental state is, which weakens him. He was still able to stalemate one of the most powerful versions of the Hulk, even though he was weakened.

Think about it. There are two ways that outcome could have happened: Either Sentry was dishing out so much damage that Hulk had to expend all of his gamma radiation to heal himself from the damage, or the Hulk had to expend all of his gamma radiation to do enough damage to the Sentry to take him down.

So during WW Hulk we had a very weak Sentry, who released his powers and destroyed few city-blocks. Noteably his fire was burning for 3 days after the fight!
That is the power he had under his disposal at that point due to his mental weakness, but that is the point: He was weakened... It's like you would send Superman with a piece of Kryptonite in his trunks to face an opponent.

Let's switch to one of these instances, where he was in a fragile state. Because of his anxiety disorder he was even in a catatonic state, until Captain America ordered him to help:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3189329-1.jpg

He was needed, because the Collective (a man with the power of 50 different and powerful mutants) was running around and killing people. The Collective at that point killed the entire superhero team Alpha Flight. He killed everyone besides Sasquatch.

The Collective also empowered Ms. Marvel and turned her into Binary. Of course he didn't do it willingly, but by a mistake. She wanted to use that as an advantage and attacked him, but she didn't stand a chance at all against him and got defeated casually in a matter of moments. And this is where you have to keep in mind that Binary is so powerful, that she once destroyed an entire planet.

Sentry then arrived to the fight and stalemated the Collective for ... few issues I think. It was an fairly even fight. He was in a weak mental state and therefore less powerful, but obviously still more powerful than planet busters like Binary.
It is only fair to say that the Collective was also not at his peak, because he was still inexperienced with his powers. So they were about even, but the longer the fight went the more Sentry got hit:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3189336-1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3189337-2.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3189338-3.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3189339-4.jpg

So in that instance we saw the Sentry having mental problems and not being willing to do much, but when Captain America ordered him to help them he immediately stood up and helped them by stalemating the Collective for few issues and during their fight they destroyed a nearby moon judging by the round shape, so much more than a regular city level destruction, but ... that was still not Sentry's best showing.

Let's take a different instance as an example of a fight, where his mental stability was not mentioned. In his fight against Photon, Photon and Sentry were releasing so much energy that they were destroying the planet below them and endangering Captain America, who was on it - and they were still holding back:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3189301-1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3189303-2.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3189304-3.jpg

When Photon teleported Captain America away, they both cut loose and you could see Sentry's golden energy expanding (while Photon's energy was crystalish blue, yet later on not present anymore) and leaving the Microverse.

To sum it up:

World War arc Sentry = in a very weak mental state = Releases his energy and starts destroying the city and also overpowering World War Hulk.

The Collective arc Sentry = in a less weak mental state, since he immediately joined the fight, instead of waiting for 2 days = stalemates the Collective for multiple issues and destroys a moon in space in the process.

New Thunderbolts arc Sentry = his mental state is not mentioned = destroys planets, while still holding back.

Bonus:
Civil War Sentry = his mental state is not mentioned = easily overloads the Absorbing Man, who absorbed the power of so many powerful opponents over and over again.

Paul Jenkins Sentry = his mental state is not mentioned = beats the crap out of the Void and tosses him into the Sun. I want to see Hulk and Thor doing that :-|

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
We were asked to stop so i wouldn't push this any further, Superman is the first Superhero, that's a fact. ODG's similarities are a farce. I you know both characters you see all the differences and could take apart almost all points of ODG. This is my last post regarding this topic. But here is an example.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Superman wasn't raised on an farm for example, he was raised at an orphanage.
http://www.reading-room.net/Action1/Action1P01.html

But haters gonna hate. One can twist the facts and lie.

So I will stop here. Sorry PR, couldn't resist 😉.

And Clark's orphan status was retconned in Superman #1 in June 1939. The Kents dropped him off but then felt bad, came back, and brought him to their home to raise in Superman #1. A fact that I actually mentioned also in my posts in #6, #8 and #12 and one you would have seen had you bothered to read anything or click on the scans I posted.

You'll note this is why facts like him being raised on the farm and others didn't make my initial list. Because they didn't happen his first year. #12-16 all happened well after Superman's first year of published comics. Things like being raised on a farm, lifting a tractor, etc. Somehow, decades after, Hugo Danner stories and scenes were still being ripped off. Like I literally announced had you bothered to pay attention to what I actually wrote with the bolded tagline: "Other blatant similarities between Hugo Danner and Superman that eventually bear out (just not in the very first year of Superman's existence):" Apparently, bolding that, putting that right at the top of the post, and using simple English doesn't guarantee anything around here. Should I have used over-sized text to make it more blatantly obvious? Or am I just to assume you did see that (it's pretty feckin hard to miss), and are just surreptitiously lying through your teeth to salvage some sort of dignity with the only thing you've got left: lies?

Misinformation is misinformation. And we don't need it spread on these forums. Resist the urge to lie about comics or about posters. One should ask themselves, what's the actual point of coming onto comic book forums if that's how you're going to behave?

Originally posted by Diesldude
I think the coming from higher gravity or to going to a lower gravity was the "flavor of the day" at that time. They have tried to explain superman's powers in hundreds of ways. That was just one of them at the time.

All those baby feats are probably based off of Hercules killing the 2 snakes while in his crib.

I'll admit that I wasn't aware of Hugo Danner. I googled "worst rip off superhero characters" and superman came as number 4. The post I read, it was obvious that the guy making the comparison hated superman.

This back and forth has piqued my curiosity and I'm going to pick up "Gladiator" if nothing more than to find out the thought process of a writer from the 30's

Originally posted by Enzeru
There are many reasons and here are few of them:

- he is a boring character,
- it's impossible to relate to him,
- he has a lot of power, but he barely does anything with it,
- he gets worshipped by his writers, who give him feats without any reason,
- Silver Age,
- Supergirl, Superboy, Power Girl, Krypto, Superanimal League,
- HIS GOD DAMN FANBOYS!

There is something I actually really like about Killermovies and it's that the mod usually let you talk trash without instantly banning you.
I don't mind it at all, when someone insults me, because I do it to others as well and you Batman-Prime are an incredibly stupid person.

To say that without Superman we wouldn't have superhero comic books is such a ridiculously retarded statement, damn dude ... You act like Superman was the idea for the first superhero, while in fact he wasn't at all ... Superman was inspired by the Gladiator, who most likely was inspired by John Carter, who maybe was inspired by mythological characters.

But besides Superman we already had superheroes prior to that:

1. Zorro, a masked vigilante, who was carrying a sword and fighting against corruption. Batman is based on that guy.

2. The Shadow, a masked vigilante, who was carrying two guns and fighting against gangsters. Batman is also based on that guy.

3. The Phantom, a masked vigilante, who was carrying around various weapons and fighting against typical bad guys.

All of them had their adventures before Superman came out.
To say that without Superman we wouldn't have comics is ... as retarded as it gets, really. That's like saying that no one ever would have come up with the idea to try putting that stuff into newspaper and also that Stan Lee never would have created great characters.

Speaking of Stan Lee and great characters...
As I wrote it before: Superman, Supergirl, Superboy, Power Girl, Krypto and a bunch of Superanimals. Then also Flash and 4-5 other Flashes. The same applies for the Green Lanterns and so on.

Thank Marvel that we have some actual character variety in comic books. If it was for DC and Superman comics would be boring as hell.

There is NOTHING Superman did for comic books, besides giving us a insanely stupid Silver Age.

Also superman isn't responsible for silver age. This is.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_of_the_Innocent‎

Do some research before spewing nonsense.

Originally posted by Enzeru
ODG and Batman-Prime, what in hells name are you guys even arguing about?

[b]1. Superman is not an original invention, no matter how much fanboyism handicaps your opinion.
Superman is straight up inspired by the novel "Gladiator", which came out in 1930. Here is a nice little entry in its wikipedia thingy:

"Gladiator is an American science fiction novel first published in 1930 and written by Philip Wylie. The story concerns a scientist who invents an "alkaline free-radical" serum to "improve" humankind by granting the proportionate strength of an ant and the leaping ability of the grasshopper. Eight years later, both metaphors were used to explain Superman's powers in the first comic of his series."

You have to be as stupid as it gets to not see the clear as day inspiration in that one.

2. Even before the "Gladiator" novel we had a different story about John Carter of Mars, a human from the Earth, who traveled to Mars, where he met Dejah Thoris and helped her in fights against the Green Men of Mars.

Due to the different gravity on Mars John Carter was much stronger, faster, more durable and able to jump higher than anyone else there. He was an übermensch!

3. Captain Marvel came along, who was a clear as day Superman copy with some improvements, like the ability to fly, which Superman gained later on as well.

4. Then we got Marvelman / Miracleman, who was inspired by Captain Marvel and dramatically inspired by Miracleman was also the Sentry:

http://www.comicvine.com/sentry/4005-1454/forums/sentry-faq-is-sentry-a-superman-ripoff-1480145/#0

Calling Sentry a clear as day Superman ripoff makes you again - as stupid as it gets, because there are just so many dramatic differences that it's not even funny anymore.

4. Gladiator came along, who got his name from the Gladiator novel, which Superman is based on. He of course is also heavily based on Superman like few other characters. [/B]

Also this is just another sad, misinformed nonsense which you prefer over actual facts. Superman wasn't inspired by a pathetic, aimless and flopped character Hugo Danner. His creators were influenced by John Carter and Doc Savage and they freely admitted it.

Also Captain Marvel was jumping from the start, not flying.

Originally posted by abhilegend
[b]MYTH:
Captain marvel was created with flight instead of jumping, so he isn't a complete superman rip-off.
Just like the original Superman who inspired him:

Whiz Comics #2 (Millenium print)
_

WC #3

WC #4

There was no usage of the word "fly" during his early years. Instead, "leap" was the ability used.

For those who don't know, cap started flying in Whiz comics 5. [/B]

Also I generally don't read ODG's vitriol filled posts, but holy **** is he bitter about superman? Some of his points are almost pure hate on the character like mentioning Pete Ross, Lana Lang which were created literally decades later, mentioning Fortress Of Solitude as a siegel and shuster creation. Superman's "man of steel" was based on Doc Savage's "man of bronze" and such.

Literally a dozen comic historians have agreed that the similarities between Superman and Hugo Danner were mere coincidences. The only real comparison was from "Ant and Grasshopper" and siegel already explained that as an inspiration from John Carter.

Originally posted by Diesldude
I think the coming from higher gravity or to going to a lower gravity was the "flavor of the day" at that time. They have tried to explain superman's powers in hundreds of ways. That was just one of them at the time.

All those baby feats are probably based off of Hercules killing the 2 snakes while in his crib.

I'll admit that I wasn't aware of Hugo Danner. I googled "worst rip off superhero characters" and superman came as number 4. The post I read, it was obvious that the guy making the comparison hated superman.

This back and forth has piqued my curiosity and I'm going to pick up "Gladiator" if nothing more than to find out the thought process of a writer from the 30's

^ Yes, it was the first of many retcons to explain Superman's Kryptonian powers, but it serves a different, more sensible, function now. These days, I'm pretty sure the whole higher gravity thing is just an excuse to not have such a scientifically advanced race spread across the galaxy. Space flight is just too cost-inefficient and difficult for them. Such plot contrivances having been made somewhat necessary by the absurdity of how there was only one particular family amongst this super advanced utopian society with a good enough rocket ship capable of carrying only one infant baby away to safety.

If just left at that, it makes the population of Krypton look like a bunch of useless monkeys. So over the years, the whole "everyone on Krypton were evolved to have Superman powers" had to be taken away, the whole charged by yellow sunlight had to be added in to explain why Superman was special, things like Jor-El's super-scientist knowledge of Krypton's imminent destruction being ignored got added in, etc.

Superman: The Animated Series had the most sensible and elegant solution. The society possessed supreme self-confidence in their own scientific advancement. This led to an isolationist culture. And their pinnacle of technology and sum total of culture, Braniac, ended up coldly calculating that Krypton couldn't be saved and he was in danger because the population would just waste time trying to use him to save the doomed planet. So it ended up lying to all the Kryptonians who utterly relied on Braniac and lulled them all into a sense of false security to cover up the preparations he made for his own escape. Only one brilliant naysayer, Jor-El, ever thought otherwise. But by then, it was too late to do anything but save his infant son.

^ they just made it up as they went along

Originally posted by dial J for Josh
the guy clearly did not want to fight at all.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
^ they just made it up as they went along

ha-som