Sis-Neg Vs Michael Demiurgos

Originally posted by Utrigita
Merely clarifying what happened between Sise-neg and Shuma Gorath 🙂

Sise-Neg wasn't even at the end of his journey at that point, so...

Truth

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, it's not 'us' who are applying these facts to Marvel Comic's character Sise-Neg,
it's Marvel Comics who have established that Other points in Time = Other Universes.

This is a Marvel Comics Fact,

Originally posted by Mr Master
👆 As for the scan opr, I believe he's talking about altering 616 from the past.
I know it's tricky but you can affect the Present from the Past,
just like you can affect FutureS from the Present.
In most cases concerning affecting the Present
it takes uber time manipulation, great skill in time travel,
or fine prep to visit the Past safely. (remember the 1602 arc)

If you can travel back to the past and affect your present and/or future, then clearly you are in the same reality. If you were in a divergent reality inadvertently created by simply time-hopping, then any alterations you made should [logically] apply exclusively to the new/divergent reality, and not the reality you started out in.

I agree with operator in that regard: it seems like the "other points in time=other universes" concept varies depending on the specific writer and his/her intent... It certainly doesn't strike me as the most consistent part of Marvel cosmology. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007

Not arguing what you're saying, because I know Marvel has
established this notion a few times, but that just makes no sense to me.

If you can travel back to the past and affect your present and/or
future, then clearly you are in the same reality. If you were in a
divergent reality inadvertently created by simply time-hopping, then
any alterations you made should [logically] apply exclusively to the
new/divergent reality, and not the reality you started out in.

Although the paradox lies in how can one be in the same reality visiting the Past, if the same reality is also existing in the Present?
The Past already came and went, so what is one visiting really?

You see what I mean Galan? Shit makes no sense no matter how it's viewed. In reality (real world) that's why traveling backwards is truly impossible.

Come to think of it,
the "divergent reality inadvertently created" explanation makes more sense to me, because there shouldn't be any reality in the past to begin with. So I see it as, space-time creating a sector (alternate reality) where the Past that one thinks one is visiting can be visited or exploited, and the reason a reality is created is in order to accommodate the anomaly which is the "time traveler." imo!

That makes sense, but, it also leads to another paradox, how the hell does this allow someone to affect the Present/Future?

Goodness Galan, my head's about to pop.

Originally posted by Galan007

I agree with operator in that regard: it seems like the "other
points in time=other universes" concept varies depending on the
specific writer and his/her intent...

You should know since you shut down facts lovely when I posted Dorkin's "intentions" concerning Mxy-WF. 😛

I agreed with you cause via Other books you were able to prove how Mxy did more, than Dorkin had ever imagined or intended in the actual book.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree.

Although the paradox lies in how can one be in the same reality visiting the Past, if the same reality is also existing in the Present?
The Past already came and went, so what is one visiting really?

You see what I mean Galan? Shit makes no sense no matter how it's viewed. In reality (real world) that's why traveling backwards is truly impossible.

Come to think of it,
the "divergent reality inadvertently created" explanation makes more sense to me, because there shouldn't be any reality in the past to begin with. So I see it as, space-time creating a sector (alternate reality) where the Past that one thinks one is visiting can be visited or exploited, and the reason a reality is created is in order to accommodate the anomaly which is the "time traveler." imo!

That makes sense, but, it also leads to another paradox, how the hell does this allow someone to affect the Present/Future?

Goodness Galan, my head's about to pop.

...And if they can change the present/future via altering the past, then clearly the past they visited must not have been an inadvertently-created divergent reality, otherwise said alterations would have stayed contained within that reality, as opposed to the character's original/native reality.

See what I'm saying? Again, I am not arguing what you've said-- I realize the concept Marvel has established. This is just a huge inconsistency that I'd never noticed until now.

Originally posted by Mr Master
We can't rely on writer intentions if these intentions even remotely dispute and/or confuse on panel showings.

You should know since you shut down facts lovely when I posted Dorkin's "intentions" concerning Mxy-WF. 😛

I agreed with you cause via Other books you were able to prove how Mxy did more, than Dorkin had ever imagined or intended in the actual book.

That's how I see it, at least. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007

In comics, the past does still exist, though. This is how numerous characters over the years have gone back in time in order to change something in the present/future.

...And if they can change the present/future via altering the past, then clearly the past they visited must not have been an inadvertently-created divergent reality, otherwise said alterations would have stayed contained within that reality, as opposed to the character's original/native reality.

See what I'm saying? Again, I am not arguing what you've said-- I realize the concept Marvel has established. This is just a huge inconsistency that I'd never noticed until now.

What's DC's take on this that you know of?

Originally posted by Galan007

If a character is able to change the present/future by altering the past, then we know the writer almost certainly wasn't considering/using the "other points in time=other universes" concept, because changing an event in one universe shouldn't affect a completely different universe.

Basically, no matter what we theorize the writer intended, with out doubt, if the writer made a story involving the Past or Future, his story ends up here:

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/appalte.htm

Even Hickman's Adult Franklin, which I remember arguing being from an alternate reality, while others were adamant about him being from 616 because he recognized his parents or whatever, when in fact, that's the same reaction every character that's visited the Present (616) from the Future (whichever reality) has.

^ no, not all stories, for instance, there's a 2009 story written by Peter David that was an exception (read the whole scan carefully):

http://i.imgur.com/4jRlCwO.jpg

Marvel is such a big universe that you can't be really sure about anything.

Might as well post what i have regarding DC:

It depends, not all time travel (backwards) end up being the same.

To take an example where traveling to the past diverges, from superman v2 #61: Waverider prevents a tragedy to his younger-self, which diverges into an alt. timeline and an alt. version of himself:

http://i.imgur.com/vqHqF0m.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/NgIlbTd.jpg?1

Another form of time travel: For instance, we learn in Booster Gold comics, that changing the past is not even possible, which means that everything is pre-destined (everything already happened and traveling to the past while changing an event doesn't result in a divergence because it has already happened). Morrison uses this concept when writing his Batman: the return of Bruce Wayne story:

The hyperadapter was chasing Bruce Wayne through time, in the end the hyperadapter takes the form of a bat, and while in this form, Bruce hurls it into a time bubble sending it into the past:

http://i.imgur.com/ZBoq0eJ.jpg

This same hyperadapter (in the form of a bat) was revealed to be the same bat that originally inspired bruce to become batman:

http://i.imgur.com/JpsgWSo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3MizPBG.jpg

and that's how it was originally shown that Batman was inspired by a bat, in Batman #404:

http://i.imgur.com/7YY4adb.jpg

DC encyclopedia:

http://i.imgur.com/jaBNvgc.jpg?1

notice the same scene with the exact same dialogue, specially in the end: "i shall become a bat"

See? You can't change anything as far as Morrison is concerned, you'd expect that - by traveling into the past - the hyperadapter was supposed to change history while in fact it was revealed to have been "destined to happen", because the hyperadapter (in the form of a bat) was the one who's "supposed" to inspire young bruce to become batman.

I can also show other forms of time travel which don't fit with others, but i don't have the time to get into that currently.

Good points all around

Originally posted by operator616

^ no, not all stories, for instance, there's a 2009 story written
by Peter David that was an exception (read the whole scan carefully):
http://i.imgur.com/4jRlCwO.jpg
Marvel is such a big universe that you can't be really sure about anything.

I enjoyed the DC accounts you presented though. cause I wasn't sure where they stood.

Cool. then ill give you non-stipulated examples:

Fantastic Four #553, says that it's possible to time travel without creating another timeline:

Changing the past is possible:

http://i.imgur.com/OozaJpk.jpg?1

.....and here it's explained that time travel is possible without creating divergent timeline as long as it's minor:

http://i.imgur.com/FStySQs.jpg?1

^ i recall reading a marvunapp page regarding this concept, though i can't find that page atm, maybe later.

yet we know that this contradicts the "general" marvel cosmology.....

another example: there's an Alpha flight arc called: Days of future present, past principle. In this story traveling back to the past alters the events in the present

http://i.imgur.com/ux3y6j2.jpg?1

2006 handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/vOMYSXS.jpg?2

......while in fact we know that according to the cosmology traveling to the past creates a divergent timeline which means it shouldn't have any effect on the "present timeline"

and this is also shown across numerous titles. Let me know if you want them.

So like i said: Although Marvel has established this as part of its cosmology it also depends on the writer.

-- which brings us back to the topic regarding Genesis: imo, the writer's intend is what should be taken into account. And in that same Marvel Premiere story Steve hinted that he's not using the marvel cosmology through the Mordo scan which i posted earlier to clarify my point:

http://i.imgur.com/VgSwi8t.jpg?1

Since Mordo was going to change the past to impact the present this means that time travel doesn't result in any divergences according to that story (meaning Steve is NOT applying the marvel cosmology)

anyway, that's how i see it. 🙂

Great story w Genesis

Originally posted by operator616
.....and here it's explained that time travel is possible without creating divergent timeline as long as it's minor:

http://i.imgur.com/FStySQs.jpg?1

Originally posted by Galan007
This right here pretty much retcons Marvel's previously established concept that "other points in time=other universes". 👆

Cool, so it's canon then. 👆

Doesn't change anything.

Originally posted by operator616

Fantastic Four #553, says that it's possible to time travel without creating another timeline:

Changing the past is possible:
http://i.imgur.com/OozaJpk.jpg?1

.....and here it's explained that time travel is possible without creating divergent timeline as long as it's minor:
http://i.imgur.com/FStySQs.jpg?1

yet we know that this contradicts the "general" marvel cosmology.....

The First scan: I know the Past can be changed.

Second scan: "Minor disruptions work themselves out"

Basically means the "Time-Traveler's presence was irrelevant/insignificant/inconsequential.

Otherwise, an alternate universe is created. (my point still stands)

Originally posted by operator616

another example: there's an Alpha flight arc called: Days of future present, past principle. In this story traveling back to the past alters the events in the present
http://i.imgur.com/ux3y6j2.jpg?1
2006 handbook:
http://i.imgur.com/vOMYSXS.jpg?2
......while in fact we know that according to the cosmology traveling to the past creates a divergent timeline which means it shouldn't have any effect on the "present timeline"

and this is also shown across numerous titles. Let me know if you want them.

It's crazy but that's how it works.

Originally posted by operator616

So like i said: Although Marvel has established this as part of its cosmology it also depends on the writer.
-- which brings us back to the topic regarding Genesis: imo, the writer's intend is what should be taken into account. And in that same Marvel Premiere story Steve hinted that he's not using the marvel cosmology through the Mordo scan which i posted earlier to clarify my point:
http://i.imgur.com/VgSwi8t.jpg?1
Since Mordo was going to change the past to impact the present this means that time travel doesn't result in any divergences according to that story (meaning Steve is NOT applying the marvel cosmology)

anyway, that's how i see it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Second scan: "Minor disruptions work themselves out"

Basically means the "Time-Traveler's presence was irrelevant/insignificant/inconsequential.

Otherwise, an alternate universe is created. (my point still stands)

But then the obvious question arises: what constitutes a 'minor' change to the past, and what constitutes a 'major' change to the past? I believe that is when writer intent comes into play.

Originally posted by Galan007
This right here pretty much retcons Marvel's previously established concept that "other points in time=other universes". 👆

More like 1 writer retcons this concept. Because it's been ignored.

I found the marvunapp page, though (see: conservation of causality)

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/ttapp.htm

Originally posted by Mr Master

Second scan: "Minor disruptions work themselves out"

Basically means the "Time-Traveler's presence was irrelevant/insignificant/inconsequential.

Otherwise, an alternate universe is created. (my point still stands)

Again, yur confusing yurself my friend.
I already stated one can change the Present from the Past, even though the Past is located in an Alternate reality.

It's crazy but that's how it works.

Already explained by Galan, and confirmed by the official handbook (marvunapp). Not that im saying it retcons the marvel cosmology for reasons already stated in my previous post.

Right. Im "confused". The x factor scan which i posted earlier says that the present timeline is not affected if one travels to the past but merely creates a divergent timeline:

http://i.imgur.com/JZJHFpH.jpg?1

And that same FF issue (553) explains this particular concept and says that going to the past to change is impossible since it always ends up in being diverged:

http://i.imgur.com/qNII8AJ.jpg

X factor v3 #44:

http://i.imgur.com/MpDDzq6.jpg?1

Changing the past ONLY creates ....

but again: the alpha flight arc doesn't use this concept and it shows the present being affected by being in the past.....and i can show you several other examples. so there's a clear contradiction here

You can clearly see how a writer's intention differs from the other when it comes to time travel, despite the fact that marvel has an established concept.

Originally posted by operator616
^ no, not all stories, for instance, there's a 2009 story written by Peter David that was an exception (read the whole scan carefully):

http://i.imgur.com/4jRlCwO.jpg

Marvel is such a big universe that you can't be really sure about anything.

Might as well post what i have regarding DC:

It depends, not all time travel (backwards) end up being the same.

To take an example where traveling to the past diverges, from superman v2 #61: Waverider prevents a tragedy to his younger-self, which diverges into an alt. timeline and an alt. version of himself:

http://i.imgur.com/vqHqF0m.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/NgIlbTd.jpg?1

Another form of time travel: For instance, we learn in Booster Gold comics, that changing the past is not even possible, which means that everything is pre-destined (everything already happened and traveling to the past while changing an event doesn't result in a divergence because it has already happened). Morrison uses this concept when writing his Batman: the return of Bruce Wayne story:

The hyperadapter was chasing Bruce Wayne through time, in the end the hyperadapter takes the form of a bat, and while in this form, Bruce hurls it into a time bubble sending it into the past:

http://i.imgur.com/ZBoq0eJ.jpg

This same hyperadapter (in the form of a bat) was revealed to be the same bat that originally inspired bruce to become batman:

http://i.imgur.com/JpsgWSo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3MizPBG.jpg

and that's how it was originally shown that Batman was inspired by a bat, in Batman #404:

http://i.imgur.com/7YY4adb.jpg

DC encyclopedia:

http://i.imgur.com/jaBNvgc.jpg?1

notice the same scene with the exact same dialogue, specially in the end: "i shall become a bat"

See? You can't change anything as far as Morrison is concerned, you'd expect that - by traveling into the past - the hyperadapter was supposed to change history while in fact it was revealed to have been "destined to happen", because the hyperadapter (in the form of a bat) was the one who's "supposed" to inspire young bruce to become batman.

I can also show other forms of time travel which don't fit with others, but i don't have the time to get into that currently.

Another example, of course, would be Flash becoming the lightning bolt that created the Flash etc etc...

👆

Or Zoom altering the future(on a global+ scale) by altering the past.