Sis-Neg Vs Michael Demiurgos

Originally posted by Galan007
👆

Or Zoom altering the future(on a global+ scale) by altering the past.

uhuh

DCU has quite literally a hundred examples like that. In DC you can change the future by changing the past without creating a divergent timeline AND if you remove the cause the reality would cease to exist which was changed like in Superman/Batman or DC 2000 or several such examples and not become a parallel reality like Age of Apocalypse. Different companies, different rules.

srug

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was barry.

Zoom's transgressions in the past were the catalyst that started everything. *FlashFact*

Originally posted by Galan007
...Who wouldn't have done that(ie. pulled the entire speed force into himself in order to travel to the past and stop Zoom, which inadvertently shattered/altered time) had Zoom not murdered his mother in the first place. uhuh

Zoom's transgressions in the past were the catalyst that started everything. *FlashFact*

uhuh

Zoom had murdered Barry's mom and framed his Dad way back in Rebirth. He still got killed by batman's old ass dad. How does that makes you feel inside galan?

Originally posted by abhilegend
It was still all Barry's work.

uhuh

Zoom had murdered Barry's mom and framed his Dad way back in Rebirth. He still got killed by batman's old ass dad. How does that makes you feel inside galan?

I don't mind Thomas killing Zoom(as ridiculous as it was), because Zoom is still the only character that was able to not just beat Barry /w/ 'Johns-force' amp, but utterly shitstomp him(on more than one occasion, mind you.) That, in itself, is massively impressive.

Originally posted by Galan007

It means that as long as the change(s) made to the past are minor, the timeline doesn't diverge into an alternate reality. If the change(s) made are major/large-scale, however, an alternate reality will spring into being.

But then the obvious question arises: what constitutes a 'minor' change to the past, and what constitutes a 'major' change to the past? I believe that is when writer intent comes into play.

Imo, a minor change has to be 'affecting something in a reality that had no affect on anyone else in said reality.' eg. like messing with something in-animate. I mean cause if you even ask someone for the time, you could end up disrupting that person's entire history.

Originally posted by Mr Master
While I appreciate the break down of the meaning which was exactly how I understood it when I read the scans, 😛 it still means that the "minor change" is basically insignificant if reality can just wash it away by accepting the change into its continuum. Feel me brotha?

Imo, a minor change has to be 'affecting something in a reality that had no affect on anyone else in said reality.' eg. like messing with something in-animate. I mean cause if you even ask someone for the time, you could end up disrupting that person's entire history.

Could be. Although I still believe that minor and major changes(especially the former) would be defined/used differently by different writers, writing different arcs. There's definitely some proverbial 'wiggle room' in the concept itself, which is likely why not all writers unanimously conform to said concept.

Originally posted by operator616

Already explained by Galan, and confirmed by the official handbook (marvunapp). Not that im saying it retcons the marvel cosmology for reasons already stated in my previous post.

Originally posted by operator616

The x factor scan which i posted earlier says that the present timeline is not affected if one travels to the past but merely creates a divergent timeline:
http://i.imgur.com/JZJHFpH.jpg?1
And that same FF issue (553) explains this particular concept and says that going to the past to change is impossible since it always ends up in being diverged:
http://i.imgur.com/qNII8AJ.jpg
X factor v3 #44:
http://i.imgur.com/MpDDzq6.jpg?1
Changing the past ONLY creates ....
but again: the alpha flight arc doesn't use this concept and it shows the present being affected by being in the past.....and i can show you several other examples. so there's a clear contradiction here

Originally posted by operator616

You can clearly see how a writer's intention differs from the other when it comes to time travel, despite the fact that marvel has an established concept.

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/ttapp.htm

Conservation of Causality:

"However, as different methods & energies are utilized in time travel, it would seem most likely that these may also play some factor in the likelihood of Divergence as opposed to modification of the existing reality"

Beautiful find opr, I love this page, ... it also solidifies my point, although there are other points of views I noticed but they don't stray to far from Marvel's original stance imo.

The "Divergence Theory" explanation relates the most to Marvel showings imo.
(not just via dialogue, but more convincingly via actual action)

Love Marvanapp

Originally posted by Galan007
Zoom used Barry's connection to the speed force against him/the world. Zoom is the linchpin to everything that happened in Flashpoint! EVERYTHING!!!!!! evillaugh

I don't mind Thomas killing Zoom(as ridiculous as it was), because Zoom is still the only character that was able to not just beat Barry /w/ 'Johns-force' amp, but utterly shitstomp him(on more than one occasion, mind you.) That, in itself, is massively impressive.

uhuh

I saw your tear soaked monitor.

vin

Originally posted by Mr Master
"already explained?" ... Marvunapp's confirmation?
I agree, neither retcons or disputes my points good friend.
I did appreciate your confirmed explanations concerning DC though.

I have many examples too. But I noticed I left something out in my post, which is why I now confused you and made you post things I already know. My bad. I didn't add, you can change the present from the past but in reality what you may end up doing is destroying the multiverse instead. Traveling to the Past (before the Present) is dangerous business.

I really haven't seen much contradictions tbh. While they may use a different method or two, I believe they stay rooted to the same core idea opr.

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/ttapp.htm

Conservation of Causality:

"However, as different methods & energies are utilized in time travel, it would seem most likely that these may also play some factor [b]in the likelihood of Divergence as opposed to modification of the existing reality"

Beautiful find opr, I love this page, ... it also solidifies my point, although there are other points of views I noticed but they don't stray to far from Marvel's original stance imo.

The "Divergence Theory" explanation relates the most to Marvel showings imo.
(not just via dialogue, but more convincingly via actual action) [/B]

according to that issue, here's an example of a minor change:

http://i.imgur.com/LQzrwRL.jpg

So it tells us that Lincoln may have originally died other than in the theater but someone messed with the past (prevented the assassination) and the timeline adjusted him to being assassinated in the theater.

That's an example of a minor change. Lincoln definitely has an affect on the reality that surrounds him, so no, it's not necessarily messing with something/someone who doesn't have any effects on others.

Ok, that was actually shown (like in the Legion Quest arc), but that doesn't contradict my point. The example i provided (of traveling to the past which impacts the present) doesn't say that the multiverse was threatened. Nor do the many others (if you want examples all you have to do is ask).

i fail to realize how you don't see a contradiction here, take a look at those 2 scans:

http://i.imgur.com/qNII8AJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ux3y6j2.jpg?1

first one says: "going to the past to change the future is futile" (and explains the reason: traveling to the past always creates a divergent reality)

2nd scans says: "...on a trip to the past -- unaware of the profound effect it would have on their present" (i also showed you the handbook confirmation of this, and the story doesn't say that the multiverse was threatened as a result)