this is boxing first off. Second it was shown that sentry did not understand his powers the first 2 times he "died". Which is why it took him so long to reform compared to the 3rd. Also you are reaching if you think MM wanted to die. He was begging for Sentry to release him. He wanted to be left alone not die.
@Enzeru:
Regarding Owen.....yes he supposedly died once, and transferred his consciousness/power into the wand which a construct created by him carried (and believed to be his son), but that all happened when he had self-imposed limitations which he later overcame. At the time this wasn't known, but here, Marvel Saga #11 (which narrates past stories), confirms that, from his very first appearance (in FF #20), his self-imposed limitations are what drove him to use a wand and cannot affect organic matter:
http://i.imgur.com/sLO8cvr.jpg?1
I can give you more evidence, it's confirmed several times and it's a known fact.
Heck, the construct/son Owen created, was able to affect organic matter, even before Owen himself could.
Owen couldn't heal himself only after his battle with Pre Retcon Beyonder.....this isn't something that's unimpressive at all.
MM is immortal, his "son" was dying of old age (since the universe he returned from, was a universe where time accelerated), yet managed to return himself to normal age, even while using the wand.
Originally posted by h1a8
The only way a handbook is valid is if it repeats what the comic says or shows. If it does that then we wouldn't need the handbook since we have the comic. Any extrapolation a handbook makes is not necessarily valid.
The reason for Owen's imprisonment was never explained until the New Avengers: most wanted files (which i posted) came out, it was never explained on panel.
You don't get to decide what's official or not, as long as marvel says it is ....that's what matters to me.
Also, Dark Avengers #12, says that Owen didn't know what's real and what's not.....in other words, he was mentally unstable......
It says his current power was unknown. Everything about him limiting himself in DA is just speculation
You could easily see that MM was depowered before. They made it very obvious he was? It is obvious they were not going for the same thing in DA. Yes he was passive but depowered no. He was owning everybody that came across him.
Originally posted by bbrem123
Second it was shown that sentry did not understand his powers the first 2 times he "died". Which is why it took him so long to reform compared to the 3rd.
I don't doubt that Sentry would have been able to reform in the end of the day the two times Molecule Man killed him, but at that point it was not the Sentry, who resurrected himself. Molecule Man did it.
The first time Molecule Man killed the Sentry, he resurrected him to talk to him and explain why he has to do what he is doing. Then he killed Sentry again.
Then the second time Victoria Hand was talking to Molecule Man and made a semi-deal with him, where he agreed to restore the states of the Dark Avengers, which brought the Sentry back as well, who then attacked.
Then the third time Molecule man killed him and most likely had no intention to bring him back, but the Sentry resurrected himself nearly immediately after, which is a good showcase of the boost Sentry gained, when he learned about his ability to properly manipulate his own molecules.
The first time he died after Morgana killed him he needed quite a while to reform. Then after Molecule Man killed him and he knew about the molecule manipulation he simply returned.
Lindy killed him with the Kree weapon and it looked like he was dead, but when the Void stood up he laughed at her and told her to tell him more about her theories, so he was obviously back and listening for quite a while.
And to Molecule Man's power levels overall :
That guy easily blew off a high herald (in that state of mind one would assume, otherwise he is above) multiple times without breaking a sweat.
No one can look at me with a straight face and tell me that other high heralds like Superman and Thor would have been capable of fighting molecule man. He was able to destroy the Sentry without putting effort into it and he would be able to destroy Superman and Thor without putting effort into it. And the other two characters are gone, when MM is done with them. Sentry wasn't. Sentry came back, because he is that awesome and overwhelmed Molecule Man with power.
Did Sentry beat a trans-multiversal being? **** no, but no one can also tell me with a straight face that Molecule Man was limited to a located area of molecule manipulation. The "non-evil Molecule Man" was already coming up with feats on a planetary scale and that's good enough to establish him as a powerhouse.
Someone in this thread actually brought up the argument that because he didn't showcase all too much power that he is instantly less durable which is as stupid as it gets, when it comes to arguments. The stories are not written in a way to establish the already established power levels of characters over and over and over again, just so that we idiots, who take all of it way too seriously could have better debates.
****ING DEAL WITH IT.
And with all that being said: I'm of course still giving Odin the win in this fight, just like I did it in my very first post.
Originally posted by bbrem123
ahh yes you are right, he did not recover on his own. But like you said he did recover magnitudes faster then the previous time when Morgana destroyed his body.
I'm still waiting to hear how getting owned THREE TIMES IN A ROW WITH UTTER EASE.. and then bringing back the person you just owned because they didn't or couldn't do it themselves is < getting owned once? One peson had 3 victories and even brought them back 2 timss themselves... last time I checked 3 > 1.. What the f is wrong with you people. This wasn't as impressive as some of you sentry huggers are making it out ot be. Getting owned 3 times and only winning once is nothing to brag about the way some of you are doing here.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm still waiting to hear how getting owned THREE TIMES IN A ROW WITH UTTER EASE.. and then bringing back the person you just owned because they didn't or couldn't do it themselves is < getting owned once? One peson had 3 victories and even brought them back 2 timss themselves... last time I checked 3 > 1.. What the f is wrong with you people. This wasn't as impressive as some of you sentry huggers are making it out ot be. Getting owned 3 times and only winning once is nothing to brag about the way some of you are doing here.
Your line of thinking is completely off. Imagine it like this:
Sentry was the more powerful being all along, but at that time immobilized and not capable of fighting back. He was beat up three times. Then when he finally managed to untie himself / break free, he put a beating on the Molecule Man.
Losing three times, while being restrained is not the same as absolutely annihilating the opponent, when you're capable of doing something.
As I said it before ... Superman and Thor would have lost three times to the Molecule Man as well and neither one of them would have been able to fight back and overpower the Molecule Man by raw power.
Sentry was in their shoes until he realized what he truly is capable of, which immediately catapulted him at least one tier above.
You're not understanding something very basic here...
MM himself WASN'T as powerful as he can be when he's not keeping his evil half in check. Via canon comics he also depowered homself after taking on the beyonder... So we have a MM already limiting himself and who himself also has a fragile mind.. a very fragile one at that. These are the SAME ... the same excuse you're handng out to sentry for losing. These are the facts that can't be gotten around...
1. Sentry was owned 3 times by somebody also not mentally stable and by canon naration has also limited himself.
2. Sentry was only able to come back THANKS to MM bringing him back... You have ZERO proof that sentry could've come back without MM bringing him back.
Thnk of this in boxing terms.. let's say Sentry learned a left hook that he found out was his best punch and MM was susceptible to...and he KO's MM... does that erase the 3 previous times he was KO'd in the first round with utter ease? No it doesn't take that away. In fact the score is still 3 to 1. Futher, just because sentry learned a new punch (figured out his powers better) doesn't mean in a return fight MM could also learn something and adapt.. in other words.. doesn't mean Sentry is promised a victory just because he learned a new punch... he could still lose and lose badly. Yo're giving sentry all the credit for one win and acting like he can do that everytime.. while discounting the fact that Sentry got curb'd 3 times with utter ease by a being also holding back nd not metally stable. Double standard much guys?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. Sentry was owned 3 times by somebody also not mentally stable and by canon naration has also limited himself.
That mentally unstable guy still had planetary level molecule manipulation feats and destroyed a high herald being three times without breaking a sweat.
No one is saying that Sentry beat Molecule Man at his best. He didn't. But the Molecule Man he beat is still god damn powerful and did all kinds of crazy shit even without his evil persona.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Sentry was only able to come back THANKS to MM bringing him back... You have ZERO proof that sentry could've come back without MM bringing him back.
Whatchutalkinbout, Willis?
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2180595-9.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2180596-10.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2180597-11.jpg
Molecule Man ripped the Sentry apart and Sentry came back under his own power. That's clear as day and if you doubt that this dicussion is over once and for all.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yo're giving sentry all the credit for one win and acting like he can do that everytime.. while discounting the fact that Sentry got curb'd 3 times with utter ease by a being also holding back nd not metally stable. Double standard much guys?
No, I'm giving Molecule Man all the credit in the world for ripping apart a high herald being without even trying. That is an amazing feat and establishes his power level further.
Sentry has withstood World War Hulk's attacks, was in a fight against the Collective, who had the powers of 50 mutants, was fighting in environments, that were destroying planets and he regenerated inside the Sun in a matter of moments, but Molecule Man simply ripped him apart. He ignored all of Sentry's durability and invulnerability and ripped him apart and he would do the same to Thor, Superman, Hulk and all the other high heralds you can think of.
But Sentry then realized what he is capable off. He learned about his true abilities and how they work and he used them.
You're talking about the Sentry learning a new punch, but that's not the case.
Imagine Sentry being 12 yeards old and Molecule Man being 15 years old. Both are mutants and Molecule Man already got his powers. He can shoot fireblasts out of his hands and uses that to demolish the Sentry three times over, but then Sentry's powers kick in and he can not only shoot fireblasts, but also turn into living fire and overall has much more power, which he uses to stomp Molecule Man.
Dude, this is about Sentry gaining (or better say unlocking) a MASSIVE power upgrade after being killed for the third time.
Additionally to all of that any my theory that Molecule Man was only capable of controlling the molecules AROUND him:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2180595-9.jpg
^ Take a look how Sentry's explosions blasts the Molecule Man down to the ground and he has to change the ground in order to catch himself safely. He is not able to simply tank the impact, which might hurt him.
As I said it ... he controls the molecules AROUND him and not his own, while Sentry can do all of that, since we saw him resurrecting himself, healing back and enhancing his own physical abilities.
you're not understanding something very simple.. MM brought him back the first 2 times he killed him.. NOW PROVE he could've come back under his own power please. Don't show me proof of im being able to do so AFTER he learned about his new powers as you just spent paragraphs talkign about.. I'm asking you to prove he could've come back under his own power before he learned how to properly use them...
Next, you again don't get the basic concept of 3 being greater than 1 victory. The fact that sentry didn't know his powers fully is cancelled out by MM limiting himself and being mentally unstable.. those cancel eachother out.. then what we are left with is MM 2 and Sentry 1.. there is simply no way around that.
Sentry was killed 3 striaght times and 4th time he finally defeated a self restricted Molecule Man which has been proven numerious times. People on here want to say it's speculation but it's not, MM on normal level which is Cube Being would had rape Dark Avengers all day long; this version of Molecule Man powers was just locale not even plantery and the Sentry fanboys want to act like that Sentry defeated a high end MM which he didn't, he beat a self restricted mentally challenge Molecule Man who wanted to lose. I wouldn't call that a victory, that's MM give the white flag because he wanted to and he was phucked up.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
IIRC, it was the Sentry's own auto self-resurrection ability kicking into gear that did so. Not the Molecule Man, who was simply focused on destroying him.
No no, the Molecule Man brought him back the first two times. At that point Sentry needed longer to resurrect himself again. During his encounters with the Molecule Man he figured out how to do it fast and that's what he then did after being killed for the third time.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
you're not understanding something very simple.. MM brought him back the first 2 times he killed him.. NOW PROVE he could've come back under his own power please. Don't show me proof of im being able to do so AFTER he learned about his new powers as you just spent paragraphs talkign about.. I'm asking you to prove he could've come back under his own power before he learned how to properly use them...
- http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2178876-1.jpg
^ The first Sentry volume already stated that the Sentry is immortal.
- http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2179227-11.jpg
^ Void tells the Sentry that when he dies, he goes to a very warm place, which might be Rick Remenders current idea for using that reference in the hints about the Void currently being in the "White Hot Room", a place where Phoenix hosts reside, or something like that.
- http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2179449-1.jpg
- http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/116291/2179450-2.jpg
^ Morgana Le Fay kills the Sentry and he resurrects himself a while after. He needed longer than later on, when he learned about the true nature of his powers, which granted him the ability to come back even faster.
Sentry was always capable of returning from the dead and you have the instance, where he does it. All of that happened before the Molecule Man instance.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Next, you again don't get the basic concept of 3 being greater than 1 victory. The fact that sentry didn't know his powers fully is cancelled out by MM limiting himself and being mentally unstable.. those cancel eachother out.. then what we are left with is MM 2 and Sentry 1.. there is simply no way around that.
I'm really confused at what you're trying to acomplish... What is even your point?
Are you saying that Molecule Man had overall more victories against the Sentry?
Of course he did. He destroyed him 3 times, something he would be able to do to any high herald, MAYBE even to the Silver Surfer, who can control the molecules as well. But did that stop the Sentry? No.
Are you saying that Molecule Man is more powerful than the Sentry?
He has a better understanding of the powers. Sentry confirmed that, but that doesn't change the fact that Sentry had much more raw power, which he used to overwhelm the Molecule Man. I like to compare it to a grown up man, who fights a child, who knows karate. Sentry is the grown up man and Molecule Man is the child. Even though the child knows how to pull off karate moves it won't win the fight, because the man is simply much more "powerful".
So no, Molecule Man's three "victories" don't mean anything due to the Sentry gaining his advantage.
We go always by the most recent versions of the characters and we were past the Molecule Man instance the moment when he finished reading to comic. We're not judging "Pre Issue #12 Page 12 Sentry" VS Molecule Man, but simply Sentry VS Molecule Man and by the end of that arc Sentry gained a massive power upgrade, which put him above Molecule Man and ultimately gave him the victory.
Molecule Man had more experience with controlling Molecules but Sentry was much more powerful. Guys, this isn't rocket science, it's blatantly obvious.
That being said, just because Sentry said he gets his powers from controlling molecules, that doesn't mean its true. It's just one of the many origins that Sentry cooked up. Bendis said as much and it has precedence. Under his pen alone, he's had a different origin with him being apparently the biblical angel of death as one of them. Another is having his molecules being an instant ahead of the current time stream.
I wonder what Sentry's true power source. Based on everything that he can do, I wouldn't be surprised if he tapped into the realm that the Beyonder spawns from or something. Although if that was the case, Mr. Master would very swiftly become an avid Sentry supporter. smurph
Actually, Owen brought Sentry back to life twice, then Sentry self-resurrected once.
Anyway, Owen can self-resurrect just fine, he's done it before,
when he created a living body for himself and transfered back his
consciousness to it from the Wand.
Mind you, this was still a newb Owen using his power.
Anyway,
I'm amazed at how much dodging of the facts has been done in this thread.
There's actually a discussion here after opr and myself shut this comedy down,
then Kurupt & Dark just drove the point further down throats,
yet cats are still in denial, lol.
So, there are 3 versions of Owen Reece concerning level of power:
1)Owen Reece (mentally unstable)
2)Owen Reece (mentally stable)
3)Owen Reece (unleashed - evil MM)
1) Top Feats: Dispersing the molecules of 44 humans in the local area,
molecularly warping a handful of Avengers,
mind games on Osborn via brain molecules,
dispersing Sentry's molecules.
2) Top Feat: From atomizing Thor's hammer (w/wand)
to re-creating himself,
to re-creating all the stars of a galaxy (no wand)
3) I posted most, but, Trans-Multiversal manipulation should be enuff,
oh,
and reality warping Space-Time,
and he's also a physical powerhouse unlike Owen 1 & 2,
like surviving in the vacuum of space, heck, even speed-blitzing
while tanking blasts from the most powerful Cube being
and size augmentation (cosmic scale) while cracking the laws of nature in space.
stoned
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Molecule Man had more experience with controlling Molecules but Sentry was much more powerful. Guys, this isn't rocket science, it's blatantly obvious.That being said, just because Sentry said he gets his powers from controlling molecules, that doesn't mean its true. It's just one of the many origins that Sentry cooked up. Bendis said as much and it has precedence. Under his pen alone, he's had a different origin with him being apparently the biblical angel of death as one of them. Another is having his molecules being an instant ahead of the current time stream.
I wonder what Sentry's true power source. Based on everything that he can do, I wouldn't be surprised if he tapped into the realm that the Beyonder spawns from or something. Although if that was the case, Mr. Master would very swiftly become an avid Sentry supporter. smurph
You do understand that MM was greatly limiting himself right... so your sentence should read.. Sentry might've been more powerful than a limiting himself.. not mentally stable MM. I say maybe beause ti seemed fairly obvious MM wanted to die to me... but no matter.. lets' say he didn't.. he was still limiting himself and unstable.
