Originally posted by Stealth Moose
By virtue of being organic, no doubt. That's why we all wore boar hides during the Crusades and not chain mail.
It's got nothing on L'Att's new state of the art armor designs but it's better than
Old Republic era techy for versatility - quote from the weapon engineers weekly from a Coruscanti holo network.
But seriously, its organo elements don't make it superior. It's just that Vong tech also evolves with the wearer and since it's also the result of years of biotechnology research by vong shapers it would be better than metalloid components or sith armor from back when.
The NJO era scientists have developed the ability to provide organic replacements for every part of the organic anatomy. Further, there is nanotechnology also, so guys can augment to higher levels without encumbrance by Krayt's era.
So by L'Att and other tech companies Krayt's armor is less but by old republic cyber tech standards - who were prone to produce armor and cybernetics that were cumbersome and unwieldy, Vong crab is superior.
So Vong organic armor >> Old republic armor and cybernetics.
The abiity to evolve or versatility though isn't crystal clear to me. In what ways instrumentally is it superior? People think some tech is "clunky" and thus inferior, but that's confusing appearance for indication of utility. Nor is time necessarily an indicator for superiority. Sadow's ships, from his Meditation Sphere to his Star Chucking Ship, are smaller than later destroyers and flagships, but possess abilities that make them superior in a combat situation. In the right hands, they can do cosmic devastation and wage war on several planets simultaneously.
Another idea is Ratakan tech. What we see appears more mystic than sleek and slim but is superior to KotOR era tech. Sith swords are ancient and seemingly clumsy weapons compared to lightsabers but have other virtues.
Organic superiority is a huge sci fi trope that needs to die a miserable death, so I admit I'm biased in that regard. People don't build bridges out of animal bones or skyscrapers out of trees for a very good reason. If the suit of armor is at all living (which sounds plausible given its described nature as evolving) this isn't any better than synethetic vibroweave material or cortosis armor with big red dials on it.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I never claimed that everyone in TOR era is a great warrior. This would be a stretch even for me.My point is that the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire had set the bar too high for Sith in the mythos. In this setting, those who reached "paragons" status were/are remarkably talented and powerful individuals holistically.
Right, except you seem to think that being a great warrior in the TOR era is more of an achievement than it is in other eras.
And as we responded on the last page.... and characters from other eras aren't remarkably talented and powerful? You are confusing the fact that the era has many remarkable and powerful beings with the idea that being remarkable in the era is MORE remarkable than it is in other eras. This. Is. Not. True.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Really?A Jedi does not needs to be a powerhouse to ascend to Jedi High Council. Vacant positions are often filled through voting by other Council members and power is not a deciding factor in this matter. This is why Coleman Trebor (types) can also become members of the Jedi High Council. Jedi wisdom is much more important determinant.
Many Jedi powerhouses have never been Jedi High Council members. Even the likes of Revan have not been.
And on the other hand we have Vowrawn and stupid old guy from Revan proving that being on the Council doesn't mean you're a powerhouse. Yes, Jedi Wisdom is an important element for a Council member. Just like Sith cunning is an important element for a Dark Council member. Power is still another important element though. It is canon that the Jedi on the Council are among the finest and most powerful Jedi in the Order.
Yeah? And many Sith powerhouses have never been Dark Council members. Malgus included. Fulminiss, Darth Tormen, First Son, both Emperor's Wraths and the Dread Masters (among others) will legitimately good Sith who were independant of the Council. But the Council still represents the peak (in terms of power and authority) of the Sith Empire that a Sith can achieve.
I'll close out by asking, is Plo Koon not one of the most powerful and skilled Jedi of the PT era? Because he only has a handful (less than 10 iirc) of people better than him.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bro, it is just a list of some canonically established elites. And you don't know how good Decimus is; maybe he is in the same ballpark and maybe not. This list isn't intended to be a ranking.Though, I am willing to be more careful next time.
Riiiiight, except the whole reason you put him on the list was to try t make the point that he was one of the greatest Sith warriors ever.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nice way to judge his credentials.I guess that Thanaton is pathetic by Dark Council standards as well since he didn't last a day in it either. 🙄
You need to realize the fact that the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire set the bar too high for Sith in the context of competition for supremacy and survivability. This system was designed to test even extraordinary individuals like no other. This doesn't means that extraordinary individuals didn't achieve success in this Empire; example of Darth Marr is in-front of you.
I think it was a little bit longer than that.
Right, as I said he wasn't up to the task of becoming Emperor. Thanks for phrasing it so well. Trolololol!
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Krayt never had been through a system which Malgus experienced in the first place. Their was no Sith Empire in which Krayt started as a nobody and ended-up competing for its throne. He didn't had to go through gruesome trails in Sith academies and cutthroat competition afterwards or be on the frontlines for decades to prove his worth like Malgus had to.Korriban was no longer a Sith-killer place by the time of Brotherhood, let alone Krayt. Heck, even Brotherhood had some standards but it was still a decaying system.
Krayt had to begin from scratch on Korriban and he monopolized things in his favor; train other individuals in the ways of Sith but not to such a degree that they would take down the Master. I recall only one individual who challenged Krayt for supremacy but Krayt was well-prepared to handle such a threat, thanks to tutorship from an ancient powerhouse and assistance from his own followers to try to find ways to uplift him.
This is self-explanatory:
"For generations, the Wyyrloks served you, kept you alive, served as your voice when your physical frailties forced you into stasis! We hid your weakness! What do you know of me? Of my own desires and plans? Nothing! I kept my own counsel and waited!"
Of-course, Krayt did set some standards for the Sith because he wouldn't want mooks either but his monopoly turned out be his undoing and several ancient Sith criticized his policies (Bane included).
Bane set much higher standards for Sith then Krayt ever did but this standard went down the drain after Sidious's demise. Since then, we see some individuals trying to relying on Palpatine's leftovers to achieve supremacy (i.e. Fel Empire). The ground realities of this time were vastly different from the ground realities of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.
Oh my ****ing god.
I really, reeeeally don't care about this, so I'm not bothering rebutting this point. Which really is just a repeat of your "the TOR era is the best ever cuz it had the most competition ever" argument.
I will laugh at the idea that Bane had high standards though. Bane's standard were the first random girl he ran into, lol.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Hardly groundbreaking? If Krayt or Bane had done this, you would be wanking them too much.I mean, being able to perform multiple actions in a span of millisecond, is not something that we get to read often. And Aryn wasn't in danger of getting exhausted in a millisecond with this level of speed, she could maintain this level of speed for a reasonable time which would be more then enough to change the game for her.
Also, Aryn outpaced Malgus in speed factor, this is why she didn't end up getting impaled or something. Malgus had to resort to his superior command of the Force to bring her to her knees.
Downplaying capabilities of Malgus's greatest foes and his own performances without merit is not going to work in your favor in a debate with me.
Well Bane has already surpassed this with his feat with Zannah.
All it actually says is that Aryn was blurring and appearing to be in two places at once. Which several characters have done and and surpassed. And it only says 'as if' the millisecond was a minute. It never actually says shes performing multiple actions in a millisecond.
Yes, its a high end feat and despite similarity to other feats it is described in an impressive way that elevates it above them. But its not going to make me put Malgus as faster than Krayt. Especially baring in mind all I said about it and that as you pointed out, Aryn is faster than him.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This technique have been implied to re-open injuries that are "recent" in the history of the opponent. Its not like as if this technique just rips the target apart without any logic.As I have repeatedly pointed out before, this technique works in circumstantial way. It is not an insta-killer.
Q99 says differently. Just because Cade used the example of a recent injury does not mean that the technique requires one to work.
Look at how Cade puts it:
"I got this crazy healing ability. I can see the weak points in you like little broken red lines! I can see where you got wounded recently. Someone smack you during a sparring session? Bet it was Nihl. I could heal that hurt. Pour the Force into the place where the red lines intersect. Or—and here's a new idea—Maybe I could explode that point. Kill you. Interesting idea. Should we try?"
He says "weak points". Which Malgus' injuries and scars certainly are. I see no reason why the technique wouldn't work on him. In fact, I am no certain that it would.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And how effective he was in this condition? His effectiveness had been severely compromised by such injuries.And I don't consider Jaina to be on par with the opposition that Malgus faced on Aldeeran, not even close.
Even with one arm he could have easily killed Jaina if he were not so distracted by other things.
Malgus wasn't fighting them with only one arm though, lmao.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is not the whole fight. You are presenting a picture that favors your position in this argument. Even if Cade had injuries a while back like say some days back, those wounds could be reopened by Krayt with the talent in question.Also, I don't see Cade summoning any protection bubble to prevent the powers of his opponent to undermine him in this contest. Malgus possesses this talent and have history of using it in combat situations to significantly up his safeguard.
I'm showing all that I have available. And all that I need to. Cade has no physical injuries on his body and his clothes are not torn anywhere to suggest he's hiding any under them. If he is injured it must be so small as to be insignificant, such that it would be easy for Krayt to inflict similar damage on Malgus.
And I don't see any force defenses around the Strike Team before Malgus smacks them around, yet I still considering doing so to them more impressive than doing it to your average sacks of meat.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Tanking explosions is something that any powerful Force-user can manage to pull off, if proficient in defensive aspects of the Force. Even cyborg Vader can pull this off.And no, Cade doesn't have superior defensive abilities then Malgus. The latter also specializes in defensive aspects of the Force, capable of forming a protection bubble around himself which represents highest level of defensive measure in the mythos.
No shit. 😬 The difference is the amount of destruction that Cade blocks. This is how we freaking show how powerful a character is. I wouldn't dismiss that Zabrak pulling down two buildings by saying 'oh, well any powerful character can move some rock duuuuuurrr.' The difference is the scale of the feat and power needed to do it. Its the difference between blocking an explosion which vaporises an entire military base (Cade) with (failing to) blocking a grenade (Malgus). The first example is over 10 times as large and powerful as the other. Thus it is the vastly superior feat.
This is basic debating. Its why killing someone with lightning isn't as impressive as vaporising someone with lightning. Because no ****ing shit.
And what has he actually blocked with it? Because anything less than an entire building exploding around him and yes, yes Cade does have superior defensive abilities to him.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku incapacitated berserk Anakin easily with his powers. Anakin is far too underdeveloped during this time to cope with someone as powerful and dangerous as Malgus.
A) Anakin wasn't berserk when he attacked Dooku, he was perhaps mildly annoyed. The Anakin Hett beat was so angry that Anakin attacked him even though they were on the same side and fighting together.
B) Dooku beat Anakin with lightning while Hett beat him with his lightsabers. When Dooku did beat Anakin in a lightsaber duel Dooku breaths heavily afterwards.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why not?
Because she just really isn't? Satele struggled with Malgus, while Yoda fought evenly with Sidious. Theres not really a comparison there.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Zallow was/is relatively faster. Game is even.
Curses! I have no way to respond to that argument. You win this round Legend, but the war between us isn't over!
(no he isn't)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kenobi have fought several Force-users. I know that he is plenty fast but he haven't demonstrated blitzing capability against Force-user opponents; he is (very) fast but not this much fast.
Maybe because Kenobi's fighting style is Soresu, which is not an aggressive style that would enable blitzing? Kenobi has plenty of solid speed feats and has fought extremely fast characters like Anakin, Ventress, Grievous and Maul.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not underestimate Kenobi. Against Malgus, he may put up a reasonable fight like Zallow did but he is unlikely to last long in this contest. He is no Aryn Leener.
Bullshit. Kenobi has put up a damn good fight against Savage and Maul at the same time. You really think Malgus is going to stomp him?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did I said that those bodyguards sucked or something? I acknowledge their presumed bad@assry.However, the Sith who participated in Sacking of Coruscant event have relatively superior combat experience and feats under their belt. Those 50 Sith managed to slaughter HUNDREDS of Jedi in this confrontation alone. Do the math.
You compared them to random people wondering around in cantina's. 😬
And the Jedi at the Jedi Temple were largely padawans and crap because most of the good Jedi were on Alderaan for the treaty signing. Satele wasn't there, Aryn wasn't there, the Jedi Council wasn't there etc.
Plus where are you getting that number? They seemed even in numbers in the trailer and the Sith were landing reinforcements.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And yet you have inferior grasp of this content?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Less documented?He disarmed/killed some of the greatest duelists of the mythos and you have doubts about his dueling prowess?
No, he didn't. 😐
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Blitzing act is dependent upon how close your opponent is to your position and whether that opponent have made a move against you or not. You may chop down the opponent the next moment after parrying his move but this may not be regarded as a blitz by some.Malgus cut down most Jedi with a move or two.
No, because as soon as you get to them it doesn't matter where their lightsaber is, you're fast enough to get your lightsaber past it without them being able to stop you. Thats blitzing.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are equating self-praise with praising someone else?Sidious is unlikely to praise many; he have ridiculous standards and have cocky attitude on top of this.
Yep. I both cases the characters are evaluating others performances against each other. The fact that Plagueis is doing it to himself instead of Malgus is irrelevant. In fact, Plagueis would probably know his abilities better than Sidious would know Malgus' and therefore would logically be better at comparing them to those of other characters.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is hilarious;Well, Malgus was buried beneath a mountain of rubble from a rocky formation and it was pretty much obvious to any onlooker that no one would manage to survive after going through such an ordeal unless that guy is a Sith Emperor or The Father or close.
Yes, if only she had some sort of sense that doesn't rely on her eyes to funstion. Some sort of.... force that would enable her to tell if he was really dead of not. Sadly, such is the errant imaginings of a madman.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not hide my bias or pretend not to be. If I like someone, I make it clear.However, this doesn't clouds my judgment. I prefer to be realistic in my assessments.
Yet you believe Orgus Din is equal to Dooku based on one feat. 😬
As well as Kao Cen Darach because he looked really cool in the trailer. :T
But none of them are organic, right?
Cortosis is an ore, and it has limited utility since it eventually fails. Beskar or Mandalorian iron is a metal of extremely rare composition. And then there's Phrik which is just as retarded, since apparently phrik objects have survived planetary explosions (re: Alderaan) and that's the least realistic thing in the mythos at this point. I equally hate that.
Stealth MooseOrganic superiority is a huge sci fi trope that needs to die a miserable death, so I admit I'm biased in that regard. People don't build bridges out of animal bones or skyscrapers out of trees for a very good reason. If the suit of armor is at all living (which sounds plausible given its described nature as evolving) this isn't any better than synethetic vibroweave material or cortosis armor with big red dials on it.
Keep in mind, the vong have been biotech makers for countless millennia. So it's a highly, highly refined design.
It's not that organic tech is inherently superior, it's that they've spent at least as much time developing it as the galaxy has with it's conventional tech. It thus has advantages and disadvantages.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Another reason to question your judgment regarding Krayt.
I would say this is a perfect example of your bias for the TOR era.
It is not practical for BIOWARE to expand on the story of every character featured in TOR era. This is a very expensive and tedious task for even a team and the costs have surpassed 200 million USD mark already.
Or in other words, you do not actually have evidence that these two were anything above the IKs, but are asking us to assume they are better based on a lack of coverage.
We can assume they were picked for that team, which is something... but hand picked for the Emperor's guard is at least as impressive, if not more so, than being hand-picked for an assault that includes 50 warriors.
This is the ground reality:-Did I said that those bodyguards sucked or something? I acknowledge their presumed bad@assry.
However, the Sith who participated in Sacking of Coruscant event have relatively superior combat experience and feats under their belt. Those 50 Sith managed to slaughter HUNDREDS of Jedi in this confrontation alone. Do the math.
---
But the story not just ends at this point about those 50 Sith warriors. They have a whole history of combat experience behind this one event. They proved their mettle during the Great Galactic War and qualified for such an important raid on merit.
There were two of them, to four personal-to-Emperor bodyguards including the Emperor's cousin. Who were not blitzed sequentially, but all at the same time, to boot.
You're still implying that somehow blitzing two sith warriors is as impressive as blitzing four hand-picked Emperor's guards.... which is silly.
Even if we assume all of them to be equal, and the Emperor's cousin, a master, at least would logically be stronger that the warriors who were unlikely to be masters, it's still 4 vs 2, the feat against the four is the more impressive.
And you're still assuming that galactic civil war experience somehow counts more than other experience. The Legacy era, of course, also has a sith war, where we see that Imperial Knights stack up quite well against sith warriors who've been through years and years of conflict.
Even if we assume the non-Fel knights and the sith warriors are dead even, Krayt's feat is still the more impressive. And it's just part of his lightsaber history.
Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind, the vong have been biotech makers for countless millennia. So it's a highly, highly refined design.It's not that organic tech is inherently superior, it's that they've spent at least as much time developing it as the galaxy has with it's conventional tech. It thus has advantages and disadvantages.
Having studied microbiology, I don't see how anything organic could be superior to metal in durability or usage. Again, whether or not it's a product of advanced tech is irrelevent when it's lightsaber resistent yet made of the same stuff all other living things are... I mean, lightsabers cut through organic material like a hot knife through butter. What did the Vong do to cells to make them not part? Super glue?
Originally posted by Q99
A'Sharad would've been a tough match for Maul. Maul has no feats on a level of Krayt in terms of either lightsaber or force. Armored Krayt, let alone Prime.
Based on what? Losing to Kenobi after a good fight?
Maul has consistently overpowered Kenobi with little to no effort. Hell, on one occasion he held Kenobi in a force choke while fighting off other jedi. Why you and most others keep harping on Kenobi's inconsistent feat of fighting off both Maul and Savage when that fight was littered in circumstance (they were aiming to capture Kenobi; they were getting in each others way when fighting Kenobi in the confined space, which limited Maul's acrobatic style; Maul still had those awkward, bulky legs), is beyond me, especially considering Maul turned down a couple of opportunities to kill Kenobi in that fight. Then everyone seems to forget their very first duel in TWC, in which Maul handed Kenobi his ass, forcing him to flee, despite not even being accustomed to his new legs yet. If anything, TCW has shown us that Maul is superior to Kenobi if we go by consistency. In fact, more times than not, Maul treats Kenobi almost as a non-factor.
A'Sharad Hett is no match for Maul. Maul would waste him. Krayt, on the other hand, is superior to Maul, but not to the extent that Maul is nothing to him. Maul would provide a decent challenge for Krayt.
SidiousA'Sharad Hett is no match for Maul. Maul would waste him. Krayt, on the other hand, is superior to Maul, but not to the extent that Maul is nothing to him. Maul would provide a decent challenge for Krayt.
A'Sharad would indeed lose, though I do think it would involve serious effort on Maul's part.
On the flip side, I'd say Krayt is quite superior to Maul. Maul's not got the blitzing feats Krayt has, nor the force powers.
Stealth MooseHaving studied microbiology, I don't see how anything organic could be superior to metal in durability or usage. Again, whether or not it's a product of advanced tech is irrelevent when it's lightsaber resistent yet made of the same stuff all other living things are... I mean, lightsabers cut through organic material like a hot knife through butter. What did the Vong do to cells to make them not part? Super glue?
One possibility is simply teach them to process and use those very same metals. Just because it's alive doesn't mean it can't cheat.
Also, don't underestimate biological trickery.
Here is an article on squid beaks-
"The Humboldt squid’s beak is two inches long and incredibly hard (difficult to dent or scratch), stiff (difficult to bend out of shape) and tough (resistant to fractures). This combination of properties makes the beak harder to deform than virtually all known metals and polymers. That’s all the more remarkable because unlike most animal teeth or jaws, it contains no minerals or metals. It’s made up solely of organic chemicals and manages to be twice as hard and stiff as the most competitive manmade equivalents."