Originally posted by Nephthys
True. Because the Sith as a whole improved, that means they're better than every other Sith to ever live before them. The standouts from the TOR era are THE BEST EVER because they come from the period that was THE BEST (ever) and NO ONE EVER IN HISTORY CAN EVER CHALLENGE THEM EVER.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire represented the PRIME of ancients; the epitome of what the Exiles may have desired to accomplish. This you need to understand. From the entire mythos, few would be able to contend with paragons of the ancients.Just learn a thing or two from Meetra's example. Their is more evidence in her favor for vouching for her chances against elites of other eras then we have for Krayt. Meetra have history of defeating extremely dangerous Sith Lords which is remarkable accomplishment for any Jedi. But when she found herself contending with the paragons of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, she was outmatched. Such was the level of that Empire.
Originally posted by Nephthys
True. Because the Sith as a whole improved, that means they're better than every other Sith to ever live before them. The standouts from the TOR era are THE BEST EVER because they come from the period that was THE BEST (ever) and NO ONE EVER IN HISTORY CAN EVER CHALLENGE THEM EVER.
And *certainly* no one later on could, say, use the knowledge they gained later on to be just as good!
--
More seriously, I can see an argument for Vitiate being the best ever, but people who're definitely lower being automatically above the best from other eras? C'mon.
S W LegendKrayt haven't been tested in the ways like Malgus had been on the whole. This is the difference that you fail to understand.
Krayt's been tested in ways Malgus hasn't, and there are concrete examples showing a lot he's gone through that Malgus hasn't.
'This is the difference I fail to understand' is a way to write off my arguments without countering them. This point of yours is an assertion, not a demonstration based on fact, and counterpoints based on fact do not seem to affect your assertion.
You are of the opinion that because TOR has a lot of Sith in competition that they were automatically stronger due to the trials involved in this. This is not backed up by the demonstrated combat feats to the extend you claim.
Its not "my" era; and I have not authored sourcebooks representing TOR era content. I am presenting a factual picture of this content, problem is that this factual information challenges your beliefs.
But, notably, Cade's got better TK feats than Malgus. Saber feats, Krayt's got excellent ones as well.
The factual balance of feats seems to show the top Legacy people as very good even by TOR era feat standards.
You seem to weigh TOR feats out of proportion to other feats.
I call it your era because you largely argue for it, and you give characters from the era extra credit based on their era rather than their feats.
You think that (prime) Krayt would loose to Dooku and/or Maul? What is so funny about this?
I could see an argument for Dooku (he can put up a fight against Yoda after all), but Maul? C'mon, Maul is nothing compared to Krayt, he can't put up a good fight.
A'Sharad would've been a tough match for Maul. Maul has no feats on a level of Krayt in terms of either lightsaber or force. Armored Krayt, let alone Prime.
Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire represented the PRIME of ancients; the epitome of what the Exiles may have desired to accomplish. This you need to understand. From the entire mythos, few would be able to contend with paragons of the ancients.
And by feats, Krayt and similar are certainly among them.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Getting emotional?
No, I'm making fun of you.
And you seem extremely stingy about who can contend with your 'paragons of the ancients.' Why do you not include Krayt on that list considering his achievements and feats? And in the case of Andeddu you just dismiss him out of hand, just because he came from an era you deemed weaker. 😬
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I'm making fun of you.And you seem extremely stingy about who can contend with your 'paragons of the ancients.' And in the case of Andeddu you just dismiss him out of hand.
Indeed. And with Krayt, we've got multiple 'paragons of the ancients' to chose from to boot.
How about XoXaan? She's one of the five greatest of the Hundred Year's Darkness, who's feats are legendary. And XoXaan was Krayt's greatest teacher.
With Andeddu- he lived before TOR and yet Dooku remembers him and names him as a great millennia later. Hardly someone to dismiss out of hand. He could make illusions so strong they wounded and killed for real and achieved immortality.
Originally posted by Q99
And *certainly* no one later on could, say, use the knowledge they gained later on to be just as good!
But even the mighty Bane felt humbled by (Darth) Revan, let alone others.
Krayt also acquired knowledge from ancients; doesn't means that he matches them.
Both cases affirm that how good were the paragons of the ancients.
Originally posted by Q99
--
More seriously, I can see an argument for Vitiate being the best ever, but people who're definitely lower being automatically above the best from other eras? C'mon.
Key term is "paragon."
The Sith, representing the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, had significantly improved on the whole. Their is a long history of progression prior to even these Sith which began from the Exiles. The paragons of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire ARE indeed among the best of the best in the mythos.
Vitiate is an anomaly! He overshadowed millions of dark side practitioners in history. Under his shadow, many exceptional Sith were not able to show their true potential in regard to lets say galactic affairs.
Krayt isn't Vitiate by any stretch of imagination.
Originally posted by Q99
Krayt's been tested in ways Malgus hasn't, and there are concrete examples showing a lot he's gone through that Malgus hasn't.'This is the difference I fail to understand' is a way to write off my arguments without countering them. This point of yours is an assertion, not a demonstration based on fact, and counterpoints based on fact do not seem to affect your assertion.
Originally posted by Q99
You are of the opinion that because TOR has a lot of Sith in competition that they were automatically stronger due to the trials involved in this. This is not backed up by the demonstrated combat feats to the extend you claim.
You just narrow down your focus on some comments and fail to comprehend the holistic picture concerning these matters.
Their are several pages dedicated to explaining the quality of Sith of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391
Buy it and read it thoroughly. Maybe you will learn a thing or two from it and then be able to understand my perception.
Originally posted by Q99
But, notably, Cade's got better TK feats than Malgus. Saber feats, Krayt's got excellent ones as well.
Also, feats are just one way to determine a character's chances in a versus debate. Their is whole picture to consider.
Here is an analysis about Malgus to educate the misinformed: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=562050&pagenumber=4
Originally posted by Q99
The factual balance of feats seems to show the top Legacy people as very good even by TOR era feat standards.
A no-name Jedi collapsed two buildings in a confrontation with his power in the Force. Another not so well-known Jedi stopped a missile mid-flight from close distance. Collapsing caves and structures is not even a big deal in this era. A talented Jedi could perform multiple actions in a span of millisecond, possessed planetary-scale senses and could survive fall from 50 km height in this era. Jedi Masters who could destroy objects weighing hundreds of tons with a single blast of power or in a single attempt were outmatched by some in this era. Even more surprisingly, a (weakened) Jedi was able to defeat a Sith Lord whose powers were amped by siphoning energies from hundreds of Jedi Masters.
A Sith Lord was capable of preventing disintegration of a gigantic Cruiser with his power in the Force out in the space. Another one was capable of routing whole REPUBLIC armies single-handedly. A Sith Lord, canonically promoted as "supremely powerful," got manhandled by another in a duel. One Sith Lord influenced powerful entities. One Sith Lord have over a thousand Jedi and Sith kills under his belt. Heck, some Sith Lords have Force abilities like those of The Son. A couple of Sith Lords collapsed a gigantic building in a confrontation between them. First Son possessed Palpatine like abilities. A lone Imperial Guard individual is a match for a Jedi.
Heck, Strike Teams have taken care of GALAXY-CHALLENGING threats in just a single attempt during this era.
All of the aforementioned are underdogs in comparison to the mightiest of them all. Even Revan failed to click during Satele's time after his freedom.
Good luck.
Originally posted by Q99
You seem to weigh TOR feats out of proportion to other feats.
Originally posted by Q99
I call it your era because you largely argue for it, and you give characters from the era extra credit based on their era rather than their feats.
I choose to argue in favor of only those things which have impressed me. I have wealth of sources at my disposal which help me make an informed decision about certain things in the mythos.
You, in contrast, have history of unusually hyping Krayt in versus debates. Unless someone is a Sidious, that someone will loose to Krayt according to you.
My personal favorite content in the mythos is KoTOR and PT period. Get the memo?
Originally posted by Q99
I could see an argument for Dooku, but Maul? C'mon, Maul is nothing compared to Krayt, he can't put up a good fight.
Originally posted by Q99
A'Sharad would've been a tough match for Maul. Maul has no feats on a level of Krayt in terms of either lightsaber or force.
Maul brought OT Vader to his knees. Think.
Originally posted by Q99
And by feats, Krayt and similar are certainly among them.
Yes, Krayt would be a threat to some of the paragons of the TOR era but he is outclassed by some as well.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I'm making fun of you.And you seem extremely stingy about who can contend with your 'paragons of the ancients.' Why do you not include Krayt on that list considering his achievements and feats? And in the case of Andeddu you just dismiss him out of hand, just because he came from an era you deemed weaker. 😬
Also, Andeddu represents an era of much weaker Sith in comparison to Sith of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.
Ancient Sith have undergone several phases of power progression already prior to establishing reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.
Originally posted by Q99
Indeed. And with Krayt, we've got multiple 'paragons of the ancients' to chose from to boot.How about XoXaan? She's one of the five greatest of the Hundred Year's Darkness, who's feats are legendary. And XoXaan was Krayt's greatest teacher.
Originally posted by Q99
With Andeddu- he lived before TOR and yet Dooku remembers him and names him as a great millennia later. Hardly someone to dismiss out of hand. He could make illusions so strong they wounded and killed for real and achieved immortality.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I think that (Prime) Krayt is Dark Council level.Also, Andeddu represents an era of much weaker Sith in comparison to Sith of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.
Ancient Sith have undergone several phases of power progression already prior to establishing reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.
I put him a bit above the majority of them. As I've said, he's Malgus/Nox level. And he could probably beat Malgus at least with Dark Transfer.
So? That doesn't mean he's weaker than the Sith of Vitiates Empire. And I know it says they improved, but I don't think it mentions how much it improved. To say that Andeddu's era was 'much weaker' seems like an unsupported assumption on your part.
Oh really? Proof of that? They got better after the fall of the Golden Age, but before that?
SW Legend
And when did I ever claim that every Sith who served Vitiate was best ever? You are being illogical here.
I didn't say every sith, that was Neph, being sarcastic.
I said you put "people who're definitely lower [than Vitiate] being automatically above the best from other eras."
I.e. you fairly automatically Malgus and his peers above their direct counterparts of other eras.
If one takes the idea that Malgus is the most powerful non-Vitiate of the time, then that just makes him the counterpart of Exar/Bane/Krayt/etc. in role of a top-level sith that's gone through a lot to gain power, and more specifically who wins beyond that should be a matter for feats, Malgus shouldn't get the nod just because he's from the TOR era.
In terms of TK feats, Malgus doesn't show an advantage. In terms of saber, Krayt too has an impressive rack against great duelists from many eras. In terms of adversity, of foes fought, even of force research, I am not seeing this innate advantage you claim that Malgus has for coming from the TOR era.
The Sith, representing the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, had significantly improved on the whole. Their is a long history of progression prior to even these Sith which began from the Exiles. The paragons of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire ARE indeed among the best of the best in the mythos.
'Among,' sure. But you put them above best-in-their-era characters who are also certainly 'among,' even when those characters have feats at least as good.
The One Sith, I should remind you, spent a century gaining and honing sith knowledge from a variety of sources, from ancient sith to more recent, and did some R&D into some new techniques not done by prior sith. The Reconstituted do not have a monopoly on top sith knowledge, especially when later eras can draw upon knowledge from it that's been left behind.
Krayt isn't Vitiate by any stretch of imagination.
No. But he's still one of the great non-Vitiate sith lords, who's gone through tremendous trials and spent great effort gaining power.
He's got great experience at swordplay against powerful foes, he's show very high power in the normal force powers, and he has a hax force ability that he is the only Sith to possess.
I don't know, guys. Malgus is a beast. I'm not sure if it should be considered gameplay or not but... During the "False Emperor" FlashP, Malgus simultaneously chokes 3 of the 4 who challenged him.
You fight individually against him while the other players are being choked. The 4 players have to get through that stage, meaning Malgus choked Nox and the Wrath and say, Champion, while fighting Cipher... Which is so impressive it's ridiculous. There's also him TKing the 4 of them across the room all at the same time, the accolade from Sidious about his war feats "never being replicated" and his other ridiculous feats you know about.
He could win... I'm not saying he definitely would, but I think this'd be real close.