Sith Masters vs. Sith Apprentices

Yeah, Filoni seems to not consider the scene canon either, considering he acts clueless as to what happens in the palace, stating the fight was "probably" four times as long, and instead seems to leave it to our imagination.

Furthermore, Maul being capable of outright overpowering Sidious in a force grip is contradicting to what we see in the beginning: Sidious overpowering both Maul and Savage at the same time, with them being unable to break his hold on them despite Sidious putting no effort in it whatsoever (and when Sidious casually force pulling them off the balcony as he was falling, with them being unable to do anything about it). But then suddenly Maul manages to overpower Sidious by himself, with Sidious being unable to break Maul's grip? Hell, Yoda wasn't even capable of holding Sidious down or directly grip Sidious with the force, which according to Sidious in The Book of the Sith, Requires more power and concentration than a force push. Also, when Maul was bathed in pure rage after watching his brother die, while Sidious stands back and laughs at Maul's suffering and then proceeds to taunt him about being replace, was absolutely defenseless against Sidious force powers after being disarmed.

So I'm not sure how canon the scene is, but I'm hesitant on accepting it because of it's contradictions, and the fact that Filoni doesn't really seem to acknowledge the details in the scene as absolute canon; he wouldn't make comments about Sidious' absolute dominance over them. As for the argument about Savage knocking Sidious over the balcony, that's because Sidious gave Savage that advantage by toying around, it wasn't because they were pressing Sidious, thus Savage knocking him over isn't really Sidious wavering from his position of superiority. However, Sidious being outright defenseless against Maul's grip, only being saved by a hanging light, is wavering away from his position of superiority. For instance, I use to play fight with my younger sister when we were growing up, and she would knock me off of balance a few times because I wasn't fighting her my hardest and I was just toying around with her, but that wasn't exactly me wavering from my position of superiority, it was me giving her moments to take advantage of by not taking her seriously. Now, if she had managed to pin me down, and I was unable to break free from her strength, then that would be me wavering from my position of superiority.

On him being 'saved by a light'- he did it with the force. Meaning, he could've done other stuff. The light was the most convenient, but I took it more to mean, 'the pair had him force-gripped, but he was able to resist to the extent that he could still do stuff.' Together they were able to get temporary superiority in brute force, but not to the extent he didn't have options, even when they're 'winning' they can't pin him down enough to actually win, he'll turn the tide and emerge victorious.

What else could he have done to take Maul's concentration away from gripping him? The room was pretty much empty; not a lot of options.

Furthermore, as I said Sidious being outright overpowered by Maul's grip is contradicting to everything that happens in the episode, and it contradicts the website confirming that Sidious never wavered away from his position of superiority. Being outright overpowered in the force and being unable to break free, would be losing his position of superiority, as it was something he was unable to prevent or break free from without the hanging light conveniently hanging there.

It's two-on-one, being temporarily overpowered isn't that big a deal.

And he could affect them directly- there was a scene in the legacy comics where one sith was being lifted and twisted in the force, so the other started directly hurting *her* with the force.

It is when less than a minute early he overpowered both of them at once while laughing.

Were they both force-pushing him together when that happened?

YouTube video

1.45

Judge for yourself. They appear to be straining hard enough.

Neph, I think Q99 is talking about the unfinished scene.

No, Q99, it was just Maul, which is a big contradiction to how we see Sidious handle them at the same time with casual ease, with them being unable to break free, or how Sidious easily force pulls them as he was falling, with them being unable to defend against it.

Originally posted by Nephthys

1.45

Judge for yourself. They appear to be straining hard enough.

Ah ha, so no, they were definitely not force-pushing back.

He caught them before they put a defense up. They were up against the wall in a disadvantaged position before they began straining.

In the deleted scene, Maul did it while Sidious was busy doing lightning, not a force-push-tug-of-war or anything. Of course that would work.

So it says to me, Sidious can handle them both if he catches them suddenly, but if they catch him off guard, Maul can push him... but not to the extent it prevents him from doing more indirect force hijinks.

Even with the scene being non-canon, it fits with the other material and doesn't contradict Sidious's double-push in the episode in the slightest. Getting force-pushed suddenly doesn't mean you aren't strong enough to force-push and hold the person who did so while he's doing something else.

Fights having some back and forth, even with stronger against weaker, make more sense than some people here give credit.

But Shaak Ti being killed is contradicted and taken out because CW already had her killed off. This is different. I personally count it as canon, as it was only cut due to the length of the episode.

Though, don't get me wrong, I don't consider Maul to be a rival of Sidious whatsoever--But realistically it's not that improbable that he got a single moment to himself for the fight, especially when Sidious was being overly-overconfident.

@Q99

You don't think Maul and Savage were using the force to try to break free from Sidious' hold/grip?

When prepared for battle, force users usually surround themselves with force auras, which is why it's harder to directly TK another force user unless your capable of penetrating their auras. There is no reason to assume Savage had his force defense lowered considering the stare of un-trust he was giving Sidious the moment he entered the palace, and there is no reason to believe Maul was not suspecting an attack from Sidious, considering Sidious flat out hints to it by accusing Maul of attempting to deceive him. I don't see how they were caught by surprise. And even when Sidious had them pinned, they were unable to break free from his grip, which suggests a huge gap in power between Sidious and both of them combined. Then we also see Sidious easily force pull them as he was falling, which means he had to break through their defenses (force aura) in order to grip them and pull them off, which means he had to directly TK them. Force push is not the same as directly TKing, as Sidious says in The Book of the Sith that gripping something takes more concentration and power than a force push, which makes since considering you have to target the specific thing/person to use the force on.

What Maul did to Sidious in that scene was not a mere force push, it was him directly overpowering Sidious with TK, which contradicts what just happened moments earlier. It contradicts how Sidious casually force pulls them over the balcony as he was falling. Sidious can easily overpower both Maul and Savage at the same time, and they are powerless to defend against it or to break free from his grip, yet Maul turns around and has the power to overpower Sidious? It doesn't make sense, especially when a Maul bathed in pure rage was powerless to defend against or break free from Sidious gripping him and ragdolling him all over the place. It contradicts what we see in the episode, what we hear from Filoni regarding Sidious' absolute dominance over them, and what the website confirms about Sidious never wavering from his position of superiority. Plus, the animation to the scene wasn't even complete. So I'm given every reason as to why I shouldn't accept it as canon, and given none as to why I should.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But Shaak Ti being killed is contradicted and taken out because CW already had her killed off. This is different. I personally count it as canon, as it was only cut due to the length of the episode.

CW didn't kill her off. Her official death is in TFU.

Though, don't get me wrong, I don't consider Maul to be a rival of Sidious whatsoever--But realistically it's not that improbable that he got a single moment to himself for the fight, especially when Sidious was being overly-overconfident.

Exactly.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say killed off. I wasn't paying attention as I was typing. I meant the CW show already made it so she was left defeated and not taken hostage.

Originally posted by ares834
It's a deleted scene. It's about as canon as Grievous killing Shaak Ti. In other words, not at all.

I'd say given the context for why it was deleted as stated clearly by Filoni, and given that there is a missing part of the fight in the episode, that is about as Canon as Yoda disarming Sidious in ROTS.

And we can see from the scene that it wasn't specifically deleted, but actunfinished. Much like Yoda disarming Sidious was never filmed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, Filoni seems to not consider the scene canon either, considering he acts clueless as to what happens in the palace, stating the fight was "probably" four times as long, and instead seems to leave it to our imagination.

Furthermore, Maul being capable of outright overpowering Sidious in a force grip is contradicting to what we see in the beginning: Sidious overpowering both Maul and Savage at the same .

Filoni knows exactly what happens in the palace. Hence he knows just how long it was.

The animatric version is slow. So the pining Sidious could have ended up being for just a second in the final version. And he was probably just caught off guard anyway.

Force users get caught off guard all the time. Unless you think Yoda getting knocked out by Sidious's Lightning was Yoda's best possible attempt to block it. Our that Opress was actually more powerful than Dooku and Ventress combined when he began force choking them both.

Maul cannot do that bro. Not possible. Has never happened, will never happen.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'd say given the context for why it was deleted as stated clearly by Filoni, and given that there is a missing part of the fight in the episode, that is about as Canon as Yoda disarming Sidious in ROTS.

And we can see from the scene that it wasn't specifically deleted, but actunfinished. Much like Yoda disarming Sidious was never filmed.

Yoda disarming Sidious is in the script which was written by George Lucas.

A deleted scene from TCW does not compare.

If Maul can move a big object with his strength in the Force then he may also have sufficient strength to put a powerful Force-user in a choke-hold, even if temporarily. Though I believe that a powerful Force-user can break Maul's choke-hold by resisting it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its gonna have to be a no still because its still only a deleted scene.

Still it does suggest the directors imagined this fight to be far closer than posters here would suggest. (perhaps a mid diff rather than a low diff)

Not really:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dave Filoni gets it.

Dave Filoni: Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.

Dave Filoni: At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.