Sith Masters vs. Sith Apprentices

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Maul cannot do that bro. Not possible. Has never happened, will never happen.

Maul could easily do that, and here's why:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Force users get caught off guard all the time. Unless you think Yoda getting knocked out by Sidious's Lightning was Yoda's best possible attempt to block it. Our that Opress was actually more powerful than Dooku and Ventress combined when he began force choking them both.

Stronger force users being pushed or hit isn't rare. It's just a lot of the time, their strength means the weaker cannot actually take sufficient advantage before things are turned back around.

The problem isn't Maul tagging Sidious. Anyone can tag anyone because no one is on their guard at all times.

The problem is Maul keeping Sidious pinned against his will.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really:

Dave Filoni: Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. [b]Why no one can compete with this guy.

Dave Filoni: At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak. [/B]

A fair point. I concede that point.

Originally posted by Q99
Maul could easily do that, and here's why:

Stronger force users being pushed or hit isn't rare. It's just a lot of the time, their strength means the weaker cannot actually take sufficient advantage before things are turned back around.

Again, the problem isn't Maul tagging Sidious. It's pretty well established that Sidious wasn't taking the fight seriously and such overconfidence can breed tactical errors. I can see Maul and/or Savage nailing Sidious if he has his guard down.

The problem is the idea that Maul and/or Savage can keep Sidious pinned against his will.

Think about Dooku choking Yoda. It cannot happen.

No, but I could see him push Yoda. Choking means he'd be keeping Yoda against his will.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Think about Dooku choking Yoda. It cannot happen.

Like Savage choking Dooku couldn't happen?

Yes, which is what Maul did to Sidious, which is why it is impossible.

Also, Dooku cannot push Yoda.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Like Savage choking Dooku couldn't happen?

I never said that Savage choking Dooku couldn't have happened and I have never had a problem with it.

Assuming if each number faces it's own padawan...the only victor of the apprentices would be Plagueis. Masters pwn.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni knows exactly what happens in the palace. Hence he knows just how long it was.

The animatric version is slow. So the pining Sidious could have ended up being for just a second in the final version. And he was probably just caught off guard anyway.

Force users get caught off guard all the time. Unless you think Yoda getting knocked out by Sidious's Lightning was Yoda's best possible attempt to block it. Our that Opress was actually more powerful than Dooku and Ventress combined when he began force choking them both.

Opress' raw power may very well rival Dooku's, but his mastery and his ability to unleash it and channel it is lacking which is what puts Dooku above him in terms of the force. However, in a fit of pure rage and with extreme effort, the yeah, nothing contradicts the idea of Opress being able to momentarily overpower Dooku and Ventress. Now, if Savage consistently overpowered both Dooku and Ventress with casual ease, then yeah that would suggest he is far above them in terms of force power.

In that deleted scene, Maul didn't just push Palpatine off of balance with a force push, he actually overpowered him, with Palpatine only being able to break free from by taking Maul's concentration away by dropping a hanging light which just happened to conveniently be hanging there. Whether it happened a second or not, the scene depicted Sidious as being defenseless against Maul's power until he took his concentration away, which contradicts everything I listed earlier in this thread.

Filoni seems to disregard the details in the unfinished scene, considering all his statements regarding Sidious absolute dominance over them. And the context of Filoni's statement seemed more like he was giving us a probable estimation of how long the fight could have been in the palace, especially since the unfinished scene, being slow paced as you said, wouldn't be 3 or 4 times longer than the fight outside of the palace. The animation of that part of the scene wasn't even finished, so for all we know, some of Filoni's intentions could have changed, considering that some of the final version of the animation was finished well before the season even started. Just like he originally intended for Maul's and Viszla's fight to be a lot longer and harder fought than what was aired, which would be just as stupid (hell, Viszla being able to land multiple physical blows on Maul is stupid as is anyway, IMO, considering Maul is fast enough to block and evade multiple blaster bolts at once, so being on the receiving end of multiple elbows and punches from Viszla is not just a contradiction to the speed we see from Maul in the EU but also a contradiction to the speed we see from Maul in TWC episodes, but that's another issue entirely, but it was an entertaining fight nonetheless).

All in all, as I said, there are so many reasons given as to why I shouldn't have to accept the details in the unfinished scene, and none as to why I have to.

This is a stomp by the Sith Masters. Having Bane and Sidious on the same team isn't fair.

Sidious 66
In that deleted scene, Maul didn't just push Palpatine off of balance with a force push, he actually overpowered him, with Palpatine only being able to break free from by taking Maul's concentration away by dropping a hanging light which just happened to conveniently be hanging there. Whether it happened a second or not, the scene depicted Sidious as being defenseless against Maul's power until he took his concentration away, which contradicts everything I listed earlier in this thread.

Please. It wasn't a force-push-o-war, Sidious was not pushing back. Sidious was doing lightning against both brothers when Maul pushed him, and then when he was against the wall he moved a little but wasn't shown force-pushing back either.

You phrase it as if they went head-to-head with the force and that's not what happened. Maul caught him while he was doing something else, then he was in a position where defense is hard, then he used his force power on something other. At no point did they directly struggle force-vs-force.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No man. Maul can't do that. I man, can you imagine Dooku choking Yoda?

Yes, easily. I mean, why not?

As long as Yoda is busy doing something else at the time and thus doesn't defend against it, he could quite handily.

It's not like DBZ power level, having higher force power doesn't make you immune even if you aren't paying attention. It means when you put your power against theirs, you'll win. You still have to actively put your power in the way to do so and it doesn't mean they won't be able to do some stuff with their power before you do so.

Q99, instead of repeating your same argument, how about you read mine and consider it, because I'm getting the impression that you just skimmed it or ignored it.

Sidious, being miles ahead of Darth Maul in terms of raw force power and mastery, should be able to break free from Maul's grip with no effort at all. Majority of the times in SW when we see a force user struggle to break free from another force user's grip, is either because they are rivals or one of them is just superior to the other. Maul is neither of these according to several sources, Filoni's own statements, and the fact that Sidious can easily pin both Maul and Savage at the same time despite their efforts to break free, therefore, Maul alone shouldn't be able to outright over power Sidious with Sidious being unable to break free. Yoda can easily grip and paralyze Ventress with a simple gesture and Ventress is unable to do a thing about it. Now it would be stupid if Ventress can turn around and do the same thing to Yoda unless she rivals Yoda. Yoda should easily be able to break free from Ventress' grip even if he is caught by surprise.

Q99, instead of repeating your same argument, how about you read mine and consider it, because I'm getting the impression that you just skimmed it or ignored it.

I'm reading it, I am just disagreeing with it.

I want to make that very explicit.

Conversely, I don't think you're absorbing what I'm saying.

Sidious, being miles ahead of Darth Maul in terms of raw force power and mastery, should be able to break free from Maul's grip with no effort at all.

Except, no, it still takes effort to resist a force user's power who is lesser than yours. Again, this isn't DBZ.

and the fact that Sidious can easily pin both Maul and Savage at the same time despite their efforts to break free,

Their incredibly paltry efforts to break free? They were physically struggling a bit, but we didn't see them use the force in response.

They did not have their hands out force-pushing back. They were not using their full power by any means, because they were pinned.

Again, the effects of force-use are what someone actually does. And if one is in a bad position, then it can be hard for them to actually do their full power. Being more powerful is not a passive thing, it affects your output but you still have to both be in a position to output it and actually do so.

Maul alone shouldn't be able to outright over power Sidious with Sidious being unable to break free.

Maul did not outpower Sidious. Outpowering implies force-to-force- this is not what happened.

Maul hit Sidious with the force while Sidious was doing something other than defending. Then Sidious in turn chose to be clever in his defense rather than directly using the force against the push.

At no point during that exchange did they go power-to-power.

On your complaint about ignoring, I mentioned that fact before but you seem to have skimmed or ignored that.

Yoda should easily be able to break free from Ventress' grip even if he is caught by surprise.

Yoda, once he does something, would be able to break free, much as Sidious did (though either indirect means ala the clip, or more direct means). This does not mean he could not be grabbed in the first place, because higher force power is not a passive effect. One breaks free when one outputs a power sufficient to counter the effect, not before.

That is how the force works, that is how the force has always worked. This is how, for example, a task force of Jedi, all weaker than Revan, can beat Revan.

1. Revan > Malak
2. Bane < Zannah
3. Plagueis > Tenebrous
4. Darth Sidious > Dooku
5. Darth Maul = Savage Opress
6. Darth Vader < Starkiller

I get the feeling apprentices are underestimated.

Originally posted by Q99
Their incredibly paltry efforts to break free? They were physically struggling a bit, but we didn't see them use the force in response.

Uh.... the Force is invisible..... 😕

Its only logical that if they were straining against it, they were straining against it with the Force as well. They aren't retarded, they're not going to break Sidious' hold physically, its common sense to assume they were using the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh.... the Force is invisible..... 😕

Its only logical that if they were straining against it, they were straining against it with the Force as well. They aren't retarded, they're not going to break Sidious' hold [b]physically, its common sense to assume they were using the Force. [/B]

Technically you can see the Force. Kao Cen Darach used a very much visible Force Push vs Vindican.

Satele had her elaborate overkill TK blasts on Malgus.

The Starkiller Clone could disintegrate stuff with Repulse, and you can see that.