Sith Masters vs. Sith Apprentices

Q99's argument holds no water. Even if Sidious was off guard, ignoring how illogical, contradictory and stupid that would be, he should still have been able to break Mauls hold on him since he is far more powerful than he is.

In Sidious's cases, I think he didn't try *because* he saw a more effortless way in the chandalier.

You're still equating 'could've' with 'did.' It's like if someone throws an object at a force user, they *can* catch it with the force, but cutting it with a lightsaber, or simply dodging.

Sidious picked a low-resistance path that'd mess with his foe in preference to counter-pushing.

The most interesting part of this topic so far is SIdious_66 getting pinned down by his hot younger sister.

But anyways:

Darth Revan < Darth Malak
Darth Bane ? Darth Zannah (Probably give it to Bane)
Darth Tenebrous < Darth Plagueis
Darth Sidious > Darth Tyranus
Darth Maul > Savage Opress
Darth Vader ? Starkiller (Wasn't it said that Starkiller could only stalemate Vader in a saber fight)

Apprentices: 2
Masters: 2
Uncertain: 2

It seems like a tie if we only look at one-on-one match-ups.

^

Darth Revan < Darth Malak

WTF? Revan is far more powerful then Malak. Bane and Zannah are close. Somehow, I consider Bane as more powerful, even if he already lost to her in a fair duel.

As I remember, Plagueis in his prime was said, to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history in his era (ROTS Sidious was even more powerful, so it looks like Plagueis is top2).

There is no doubt, that Sidious is more powerful then Dooku, and Maul is more powerful then Opress.

I'm not sure about Vader vs Starkiller, but Sith Masters will win this one either way.

Originally posted by Zett
^

Darth Revan < Darth Malak

WTF? Revan is far more powerful then Malak.

Drew K. confirmed that Revan was more powerful than an amplified Malak, given that LS Revan is canon and therefore he had to contend with a Sith Lord running around, leeching captured Jedi. And no, he didn't use stims and mines.

The battle was still considered "epic" though, so buffed Malak is at least a struggle for Revan.

Yeah, but thats Reborn Revan, who is more powerful than Darth Revan. According to Malak, Darth Revan is weaker than himself. Not sure if I buy that but Darth Revan isn't superior to Malak just because his future self is.

No, Malak was always firmly below Revan either way. That's why he took a knee and that's why he stabbed him in the back.

Not how he tells it.

Last I checked, Revan sabered his jaw off in retaliation for sass. Malak's full of it.

Malak even while just serving darth revan was capable of battling his master in a, "vicious duel" I believe, but ultimately lost. Give him 4 more years and I think he should be above darth revan.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Malak even while just serving darth revan was capable of battling his master in a, "vicious duel" I believe, but ultimately lost. Give him 4 more years and I think he should be above darth revan.

What are we basing this on?

Malak was not confident of his ability to duel his master for the throne right up until he fired on his ship. And even when they did duel at the end of the game, Malak struggled against and lost against Revan, who mind you has not learned any additional Sith teachings and the quantity of his regained memories is nebulous at best, while he was empowered by multiple Jedi and the Star Forge.

So either Revan found a power up somewhere in level 3 that increased Force powerz, or he was always better than Malak, and there's some history revisionism going on.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Last I checked, Revan sabered his jaw off in retaliation for sass. Malak's full of it.

Malak became more powerful after that and since becoming the Dark Lord. According to him he'd surpassed Revan at the time he fired on him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malak became more powerful after that and since becoming the Dark Lord. According to him he'd surpassed Revan at the time he fired on him.

I'm sorry, but this begs for proof besides "Malak said so" and "time passed, therefore improvement".

It is quite possible he at least caught up, especially with the boosts he was using to cheat.

Btw, fun fact- when Malak was a Jedi named Alek, he lost a fight to a non-force user, Jarael.

Wasn't she at least Force-Sensitive?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wasn't she at least Force-Sensitive?

Minimally, if at all! Multiple people assumed she was powerful in it due to her being the product of Antos Wyrick's attempt to create a large number of strong force users artificially using Arca Jeth's DNA, but the project turned out to be a failure in that respect. Insufficient for Jedi training.

She did have crazy good combat training in the Crucible, but she was 'just' a combat prodigy.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What are we basing this on?

Malak was not confident of his ability to duel his master for the throne right up until he fired on his ship. And even when they did duel at the end of the game, Malak struggled against and lost against Revan, who mind you has not learned any additional Sith teachings and the quantity of his regained memories is nebulous at best, while he was empowered by multiple Jedi and the Star Forge.

So either Revan found a power up somewhere in level 3 that increased Force powerz, or he was always better than Malak, and there's some history revisionism going on.

I haven't played the game in a long time, but wasn't this explicitly the case?
Malak ragdolls Revan and Bastilla, and then Revan magically becomes powerful enough to defeat Bastilla and Star-Forge Amped Malak.

I don't think it's too far-fetched to believe that Malak surpassed Darth Revan.

Originally posted by red8
I haven't played the game in a long time, but wasn't this explicitly the case?
Malak ragdolls Revan and Bastilla, and then Revan magically becomes powerful enough to defeat Bastilla and Star-Forge Amped Malak.

I just rewatched the cut scene via Youtube. The quality of the game is worse than I remember. But then it's ten years old now.

Malak freezes Bastila and Carth when he explicitly means to duel Revan in the "ancient Sith Tradition as it was meant to be". They duel, he TK's Revan with a whirlwind maneuver and runs away, only to egg Revan on again. They fight again, he freezes Revan, and then Bastila intervenes.

Malak's Force powers seem to have the edge here. So that makes me think also: when the hell does Revan get magically better, or is Malak just lucky and Revan hasn't gotten his memories/aptitude back to normal?

I don't get how Revan could go from Force ignorant to better than his former self in the nebulous amount of time he was practicing either. Plot induced vagueness.

I don't think it's too far-fetched to believe that Malak surpassed Darth Revan.

No, having reviewed the video I'm inclined to agree that Malak is at least very close to his old master, or has the edge because the former isn't up to full strength yet. Otherwise, there's no logical reason why Revan would suddenly defeat a buffed version of the same guy later.

Unless stims are that good.

KOTOR powerscaling sucks. That or Bastila's battle meditation was amping Revan ✅

Which is a valid point actually. Bastila is canonically using it to help the Jedi/Republic. Revan could be getting buffed.

Nice catch.

Malak freezes Bastila and Carth when he explicitly means to duel Revan in the "ancient Sith Tradition as it was meant to be".

Can't be- Ragnos didn't interrupt them just as it was getting good.