Sith Masters vs. Sith Apprentices

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh.... the Force is invisible..... 😕

Its only logical that if they were straining against it, they were straining against it with the Force as well. They aren't retarded, they're not going to break Sidious' hold [b]physically, its common sense to assume they were using the Force. [/B]

Using the force still has signs, though. Sidious moved his arm. Normally with TK there is a motion or something.

Additionally, TK with the force is normally audible. There was no increased sound to indicate counter-TK.

They aren't stupid, but they also were not demonstrating signs of being in a position to direct the force effectively yet. They'd only been pinned for maybe two-three seconds, and being pinned would also be quite uncomfortable (they were effectively being crushed). Often in positions like that it takes characters some time to gather up enough concentration to use the force, and when they do so, even if unable to make a hand gesture (the most common indicator of TK), they normally have a look of concentration or focus, which was absent.

You are assuming they used TK defense, but they were caught by surprise by the initial push and we have no actual sign of them doing so, just assumption.

Furthermore in Sidious's case specifically, we have even less reason to believe he TK-resisted, since he instead just chuckled and TK-did-something-else. Knowing he could drop the chandelier, why waste effort with brute force?

We additionally know at the time of the initial push, he definitely wasn't raising a defense, because he was doing lightning.

You two are just assuming that anti-TK push defense is always on and doesn't involve a hand motion or concentration like staring intently on the thing they want moved, even though it's never been shown to work like that, when someone has successfully defended there's always been some sign they're doing it (be it gesture or other) and there wasn't in these instances.

We could even say they may have been using force-strength in order to try and raise an arm to properly do TK, but none of the signs of TK were there.

What Neph said.

We didn't see Sidious use the force to slam them against the windows either. Maybe they just jumped to a window that had superglue.

Lmao.

Originally posted by XRKun
Technically you can see the Force. Kao Cen Darach used a very much visible Force Push vs Vindican.

Satele had her elaborate overkill TK blasts on Malgus.

The Starkiller Clone could disintegrate stuff with Repulse, and you can see that.

The Force is sometimes portrayed as being visible, but thats only a stylistic choice to help viewers. The Force is invisible telekinesis/etc in most aspects.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What Neph said.

We didn't see Sidious use the force to slam them against the windows either. Maybe they just jumped to a window that had superglue.

We saw Sidious make clear motions. As is normal with force push.

TK, whether offensively or defensively, always has visual cues and signs. Not just air-ripple effects, but rather what the character does.

You're not only assuming they defended signlessly, despite the history of that not being the case, but that such signless defense is automatic, which is definitely not the case.

Even assuming it can happen signlessly- which I do want to be very clear is just something you two are assuming- there's still the matter that the brothers were caught by surprise by Sidious's double-push, and that Sidious was in the middle of doing force offense at the time of Maul's push. Both would've connected anyway even if you were right which, again, you're just assuming and there's no actual signs, visible, audible, or other of this happening nor is TK defense portrayed that way elsewhere, and being in the middle of being crushed makes any force-use harder, and knowing you can do something small and clever instead makes it unnecessary.

Savage wrecks a Mandalorian jail cell in the previous episode by merely flexing his arms. And we see both he and Maul visibly squirming, flexing, and straining against the window. The idea that they weren't trying to use any and all means to throw off Sidious's hold is incredible (literally).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Savage wrecks a Mandalorian jail cell in the previous episode by merely flexing his arms. And we see both he and Maul visibly squirming, flexing, and straining against the window. The idea that they weren't trying to use any and all means to throw off Sidious's hold is incredible (literally).

But using the force takes concentration, and the maximum concentration one can rally while being crushed, on very short notice, can be quite different than their max.

Opress broke free while flexing his arms while otherwise under no discomfort or disadvantage to speak of, and an arm-flex is hardly his max power/concentration either, he's done bigger force moves than that.

They were squirming, but it was only a second or two. Big force powers often take more time than that.

Again, you're just assuming that not only were they defending, but at max power, despite being caught by surprise.

What about Vader smacking Luke with objects while lightsaber fighting him? Or Sidious manipulating the pod he's standing on without gesturing at it? Hell, right before the fight Sidious continuously chokes out two Mando's with only a small opening hand wave. Force users can use the Force without needing to make physical movements you know.

We see Savage lift a couple of heavy obelisks in "Witches of the Mist" while Dooku zaps him. So unless Sidious's Force grip is causing Savage more discomfort than Dooku's lightning, I don't see why he would be incapable of mustering any sort of defense or countermeasure.

No one ever said anything about "max power." What's being said is that they don't need free use of their arms to use the Force and were visibly straining beneath his hold.

There's more reason to believe they were trying to get free than not.

Nephthys
Hell, right before the fight Sidious continuously chokes out two Mando's with only a small opening hand wave.

Not to mention that when he waltzes into the throne room, he pins the guards, chokes them out, and releases them without any gesture.

We see Savage lift a couple of heavy obelisks in "Witches of the Mist" while Dooku zaps him.

Good example- Big gestures, and it took some time to do so under the zaps.

Did he do so? Yes. Was it easy/automatic/quick? No. And that was a deliberate exercise.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]What about Vader smacking Luke with objects while lightsaber fighting him?

I'm pretty sure he motioned with his saber while doing so.

Hell, right before the fight Sidious continuously chokes out two Mando's with only a small opening hand wave.

A small wave is still a wave.

Force users can use the Force without needing to make physical movements you know.

Sure. Luke does on Hoth. It normally appears quicker and easier to do with, though, and note how all the gestureless feats are extremely small ones that are easy by that character's standards? We're talking 'drawing on full power within moments of being thrown into a wall and still in the process of being crushed,' after all.

Not just a little thing, but full power.

You guys are the ones acting like it's automatic and easy for a force user to unleash their maximum power quickly and easily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda disarming Sidious is in the script which was written by George Lucas.

A deleted scene from TCW does not compare.

It's almost a perfect comparison.

Yoda disarming Sidious happens in a scene of the fight we know is missing and we know was originally written.

Same with the deleted Maul scene.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really:

Dave Filoni: Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. [b]Why no one can compete with this guy.

Dave Filoni: At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak. [/B]

Are you really going to take that completely literally, when he did get touched, at least twice?

If he can get caught off guard and knocked off a balcony by Opress, then he can get caught off guard and Force pushed against a wall by Maul Imo.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem isn't Maul tagging Sidious. Anyone can tag anyone because no one is on their guard at all times.

The problem is Maul keeping Sidious pinned against his will.

Again the animatrics version seemed slow. It could have only been for a second in the final scene.

And hey to everyone, it's not me and Q99 who were developing that scene. Even if I was making the scene it wouldn't have even occurred to me to have Maul Force Push Sidious. But If it's to be declared non canon then it should be done on the grounds of it being deleted, and not on the grounds of not liking the scene, or thinking it's silly.

Filoni made it clear those scenes were only deleted because the fight was too long to fit into the episode.

And hey to everyone, it's not me and Q99 who were developing that scene. Even if I was making the scene it wouldn't have even occurred to me to have Maul Force Push Sidious. But If it's to be declared non canon then it should be done on the grounds of it being deleted, and not on the grounds of not liking the scene, or thinking it's silly.

Oh, oh yes, that's right. I totally don't work for Lucasfilms and totally didn't make that scene.

Any accusations otherwise are complete crazy talk, and you should banish all thoughts from your heads.

Because I didn't.

Just to be entirely clear on the matter.

😂

Originally posted by Q99
I'm pretty sure he motioned with his saber while doing so.

He does it while in a saberlock at one point. No gesture. And afterwards he doesn't exactly gesture as just point his lightsaber down and stand there.

Originally posted by Q99
A small wave is still a wave.

He continuously does it without needing to make physical motions. And as Tempest pointed out, he does it again while entering Mauls throne room.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure. Luke does on Hoth. It normally appears quicker and easier to do with, though, and note how all the gestureless feats are extremely small ones that are easy by that character's standards? We're talking 'drawing on full power within moments of being thrown into a wall and still in the process of being crushed,' after all.

Not just a little thing, but full power.

In Swtor, the HoT pushes back the Emperor without needing to gesture. In RoT Bane unleashes a Force Wave that floors his opponents while ripping through their shields without gesturing. Combatants create Force barriers all the time without needing physical movement. Gesturing simply makes it easier, but a Force user can use the Force without it and do so at their full power.

Originally posted by Q99
You guys are the ones acting like it's automatic and easy for a force user to unleash their maximum power quickly and easily.

Maul and Savage had a full 5 seconds. More than enough time for a Force user with enhanced reflexes to react. And they were not in any noticeable pain or discomfort that would hinder them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's almost a perfect comparison.

Yoda disarming Sidious happens in a scene of the fight we know is missing and we know was originally written.

Same with the deleted Maul scene.

Perhaps in your dreams. The RotS script is taken as canon be George Lucas wrote it. I'm fairly certain its specifically noted in the guides to canon as being an exception, so long as it doesn't contradict the movie. The scene is question is merely a deleted scene from the cartoon, it does not hold the same weight as something from Lucas. The two are incomparable.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Are you really going to take that completely literally, when he did get touched, at least twice?

If he can get caught off guard and knocked off a balcony by Opress, then he can get caught off guard and Force pushed against a wall by Maul Imo.

Yes, since it comes from the freaking producer of the show. Surprisingly, I do. His interpretation of the fight is a bit more relevant than yours. Since he, you know, ****ing made it. 😆

Sidious let Opress hit him and was not inconvenienced in the slightest by it. Particularly noteworthy is how Sidious is merely punted back like a rubber ball despite Savages horns (which skewered Galia). Savage did nothing to him. Maul advanced through his full blast lightning and pasted him to a wall. Again, not comparable at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And hey to everyone, it's not me and Q99 who were developing that scene. Even if I was making the scene it wouldn't have even occurred to me to have Maul Force Push Sidious. But If it's to be declared non canon then it should be done on the grounds of it being deleted, and not on the grounds of not liking the scene, or thinking it's silly.

It is not that we do not like it, its that its completely contradictory to the rest of the fight, the fact that Sidious pwned both of them less than a minute earlier with TK and what was said about the fight outside of it. It is not that we think its 'silly', its that it is completely illogical, inconsistent and retarded.

Others have explained this to you guys many times, so I'm unsure of why you're still confused about that.

^

👆

Not to mention that I actually enjoyed the delete sequence, hence why I posted it here.

I would have loved to see more of that fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps in your dreams.

Your not really pulling the fanboy shit over me on this are you? I didn't make that scene. It was made at Lucasarts. Get over it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The RotS script is taken as canon be [b]George Lucas wrote it. I'm fairly certain its specifically noted in the guides to canon as being an exception, so long as it doesn't contradict the movie. The scene is question is merely a deleted scene from the cartoon, it does not hold the same weight as something from Lucas. The two are incomparable.[/B]

I get that that Lucas's words are the highest canon. But keep your arguments consistent. If a scene that Lucas decides not to include is canon to Lucas's film on the basis that it's a missing scene and possible within the context of the film, then by the same principle a scene made by TCW crew, which shows a part of the fight missing from the episode, which we even know was only cut out due to the length of the fight in the 20 minute episode, then that should also be canon within the context of TCW.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, since it comes from the freaking producer of the show. Surprisingly, I do. His interpretation of the fight is a bit more relevant than yours. Since he, you know, ****ing made it. 😆

Yeah but you ignore that convenient fact when it comes to the deleted scene which he also would have ****ing created, and has outright stated he's only left it out due to the length of the fight.

Again try consistency in your arguments.

Oh and yeah lets not forget that same ****ing guy who made it also flat out said Opress performed better against Sidious than Tiin/Kolar/Fisto. A fact you and others like to ignore he said. And yes his interpretation is also more relevant than yours.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious let Opress hit him

Oh really? He just let him **** him off the balcony? Way to state your very subjective opinions as fact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and was not inconvenienced in the slightest by it. Particularly noteworthy is how Sidious is merely punted back like a rubber ball despite Savages horns (which skewered Galia). Savage did nothing to him.

I'm not arguing that it did some kind of damage to Sidious. I'm flat out telling you your frigging deluded if you think that doesn't count as "touching him" in the more literal sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maul advanced through his full blast lightning and pasted him to a wall. Again, not comparable at all.

He blocked half his lightning with his Lightsaber. Big deal. Then he caught Sidious off guard.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It is not that we do not like it, its that its completely contradictory to the rest of the fight, the fact that Sidious pwned both of them less than a minute earlier with TK and what was said about the fight outside of it. It is not that we think its 'silly', its that it is completely illogical, inconsistent and retarded.

Ah right so now YOUR INTERPRETATION is more canon than that of TCW crew who were making that scene. Because clearly they're retarded, but you understand everything about Force powers, and your interpretation on the subject is the final canon on the matter.

It's not more contradictory than Opress frigging choking Dooku and Ventress combined when just seconds earlier he was being he was being completely tooled by Dooku's force powers.

The difference being Sidious escaped from his pin, and didn't then run away from Maul. On the contrary he went on to batter both brothers together.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Others have explained this to you guys many times, so I'm unsure of why you're still confused about that.

Don't give me that shit that others have explained it to me. Either take me on yourself, or stop whining. Q99 has exhaustively explained to you in fact, citing examples, of how more powerful force users can get caught off guard by lesser powerful ones. But your the one who seems confused about that and unable to comprehend how Maul could pin Sidious off guard for a couple of seconds.

Let's all accept Maul's inferiority to his master and move on.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Let's all accept Maul's inferiority to his master and move on.

Of course he's inferior. Him and Opress combined are clearly inferior. That doesn't mean neither of them are capable of packing a nice punch now and then.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your not really pulling the fanboy shit over me on this are you? I didn't make that scene. It was made at Lucasarts. Get over it.

Um, no I wasn't. That was merely standard smack talk.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I get that that Lucas's words are the highest canon. But keep your arguments consistent. If a scene that Lucas decides not to include is canon to Lucas's film on the basis that it's a missing scene and possible within the context of the film, then by the same principle a scene made by TCW crew, which shows a part of the fight missing from the episode, which we even know was only cut out due to the length of the fight in the 20 minute episode, then that should also be canon within the context of TCW.

No. Because the sources are not consistent. Something originating from Lucas is not consistent with something originating from TCW crew. I think you need a little reminder of canon policy:

"G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie)."

The script and deleted scenes are exceptions from the rules because George Lucas is an exception to ALL rules. He is the absolute authority and elements originating from him are likewise above other aspects of the mythos.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but you ignore that convenient fact when it comes to the deleted scene which he also would have ****ing created, and has outright stated he's only left it out due to the length of the fight.

Again try consistency in your arguments.

Oh and yeah lets not forget that same ****ing guy who made it also flat out said Opress performed better against Sidious than Tiin/Kolar/Fisto. A fact you and others like to ignore he said. And yes his interpretation is also more relevant than yours.

I don't give a shit. It is a deleted scene and is not canon at all. And he did not create it, as it was not finished. Also I don't recall you ever proving he was specifically talking about that scene when he said he's left parts of the fight out.

He only did so because he wanted to let him put up a better fight. If Sidious had wanted to kill him as quickly as those guys, he would have opened the fight with Force Lightning and reduced Opress to a charred husk or ash in an instant. You guys love to go on about how he 'caught them off guard' at the start of the fight but if that's true then it just proves that Sidious could have easily killed both of them on the spot were he so inclined.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh really? He just let him **** him off the balcony? Way to state your very subjective opinions as fact.

It isn't really subjective when I have canon sources saying he never wavered in his superiority. Pro tip: Someone hitting you without your consent, would be wavering in your position of superiority.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not arguing that it did some kind of damage to Sidious. I'm flat out telling you your frigging deluded if you think that doesn't count as "touching him" in the more literal sense.

It doesn't count because canon says it doesn't count. 😉

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He blocked half his lightning with his Lightsaber. Big deal. Then he caught Sidious off guard.

Sidious wasn't freaking off guard. His precog is so far above theirs that in the novel its said he can easily anticipate all their actions. Plus Maul was advancing through his lightning. What, do you think Sidious thought he was going to give him a peck on the cheek? These arguments always seem to think that these characters have brain damage for some reason. 😬

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah right so now YOUR INTERPRETATION is more canon than that of TCW crew who were making that scene. Because clearly they're retarded, but you understand everything about Force powers, and your interpretation on the subject is the final canon on the matter.

Yes. Because that scene is not canon at all and my interpretation uses, you know, actual canon to support itself.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's not more contradictory than Opress frigging choking Dooku and Ventress combined when just seconds earlier he was being he was being completely tooled by Dooku's force powers.

Dooku was tooling him for a specific reason: Savage couldn't block his lightning. And him choking them was also for a specific reason: Savage went berserk and got a huge rage boost.

This doesn't apply to Maul because we see that later on Maul is absolutely owned by Sidious even with a huge rage boost from seeing his brother die. So whats the reason Maul could push Sidious up a wall? Oh, he was off guard. For several seconds. Because thats not incredibly stupid.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Don't give me that shit that others have explained it to me. Either take me on yourself, or stop whining. Q99 has exhaustively explained to you in fact, citing examples, of how more powerful force users can get caught off guard by lesser powerful ones. But your the one who seems confused about that and unable to comprehend how Maul could pin Sidious off guard for a couple of seconds.

Q99's argument holds no water. Even if Sidious was off guard, ignoring how illogical, contradictory and stupid that would be, he should still have been able to break Mauls hold on him since he is far more powerful than he is. You cannot argue that he was 'off guard' for several second when he has precognition and superhuman reflexes.

^ This is the Neph I remember and prefer. Before the heresy.