Sith Emperor (Vitiate) Respect Thread

Well as I said, they're not newbs with telepathy, and Sidious rivals Vitiate in that regard.

Yes he does. He completely and utterly mind ****s luke skywalker, mentally shields himself from Plagueis's mental probing while a neophyte, has galaxy spanning reach with it, can ****ing sense people's thoughts (vitiate hasn't done this, Scourge could lie right to his face), etc. Name Vitiate's best feat without preparation and focus (like with the 8k sith lords).

Vitiate used Nathema to prolong his life for centuries, not explosively augment his power (which is what I would assume UnuThul was doing).

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well as I said, they're not newbs with telepathy, and Sidious rivals Vitiate in that regard.

Keep in mind that even after the events of TOR, Jedi would continue to believe (in the future) that Mind Tricks only worked on weak minds. Vitiate's powers remained a mystery to most or inspired legends in the years to come.

Sidious also developed high end telepathic abilities but he was still not matching Vitiate.

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis affirms that very little was known about Vitiate in the future.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes he does. He completely and utterly mind ****s luke skywalker, mentally shields himself from Plagueis's mental probing while a neophyte, has galaxy spanning reach with it, can ****ing sense people's thoughts (vitiate hasn't done this, Scourge could lie right to his face), etc. Name Vitiate's best feat without preparation and focus (like with the 8k sith lords).

2. I am sure that no one was able to probe Vitiate either.

3. Same is true for Vitiate. In-fact, Vitiate took this to a new level with his Children concept.

4. This is not an argument that somebody can lie to Vitiate's face. You think that Vader haven't lied to Sidious? He did lie to Sidious about his plans with Marek. I am sure that their are more examples.

5. Preparation and focus are lame arguments to be honest. Everybody prepares and focuses during combat situations.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vitiate used Nathema to prolong his life for centuries, not explosively augment his power (which is what I would assume UnuThul was doing).

Guys, I know I don't have room to talk right now and I'm probably on a few shit lists; so I'm not trying to sound condescending at all.

But there is already a thread for this.

Yoda, Sidious, and Luke aren't average jedi and sith though. Yoda's TP had galactic reach, as well as Sidious (i'm not sure about Luke). Vitiate being a mystery to Plagueis and Sidious doesn't affirm his superiority over them.

1. Same with Vitiate and the Strike Team.

2. Probably. i'm just trying to say that Sidious is very close to Vitiate in terms of TP, and vitiate doesn't utterly outclass Sidious in this regard.

3. Mentioned in the 2nd sentence above.

4. No, Vader literally couldn't lie to Sidious.

5. I'd agree for the most part (some people think Vitiate needs prep to use the FLS he utilized against the strike team), however, like with Revan, Malak, and most likely the 8000 sith lords, his opponents were either unprepared or unknowing, meanwhile Vitiate was fully prepared and ready. Now obviously in a random versus battle, Sidious, Yoda, and Luke (Luke has actually been tp assaulted before) they would (most likely) be unknowing of Vitiate's mental domination, however Vitiate wouldn't be prepared and focused like with his effortless domination of Revan and Malak (both of whom were also teetering on the edge of the dark side anyways.

Yeah I know that, but increasing his capacity as a practitioner of the force could just as easily mean that he was given much, much more time to improve and hone his immense force mastery. Take Darth Nox for example, her 5 ghosts give her an enormous amp, but they don't grant her immortality like Vitiate's draining of Nathema. I'm pretty sure UnuThul was drawing power in the same way Nox was, to immensely bolster his power.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yoda, Sidious, and Luke aren't average jedi and sith though. Yoda's TP had galactic reach, as well as Sidious (i'm not sure about Luke). Vitiate being a mystery to Plagueis and Sidious doesn't affirm his superiority over them.

In-fact, Satele and Aryn developed very good telepathic abilities as well but this doesn't guarantees their chances to defend against Vitiate's telepathic influence. Satele was hesitant to confront Vitiate even during the latter's most vulnerable moment.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Same with Vitiate and the Strike Team.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
2. Probably. i'm just trying to say that Sidious is very close to Vitiate in terms of TP, and vitiate doesn't utterly outclass Sidious in this regard.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
3. Mentioned in the 2nd sentence above.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
4. No, Vader literally couldn't lie to Sidious.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
5. I'd agree for the most part (some people think Vitiate needs prep to use the FLS he utilized against the strike team), however, like with Revan, Malak, and most likely the 8000 sith lords, his opponents were either unprepared or unknowing, meanwhile Vitiate was fully prepared and ready.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Now obviously in a random versus battle, Sidious, Yoda, and Luke (Luke has actually been tp assaulted before) they would (most likely) be unknowing of Vitiate's mental domination, however Vitiate wouldn't be prepared and focused like with his effortless domination of Revan and Malak (both of whom were also teetering on the edge of the dark side anyways.

In a versus discussion, it is normally assumed that featured combatants are fully prepared for combat. Though people can sometimes change rules to favor a certain character.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah I know that, but increasing his capacity as a practitioner of the force could just as easily mean that he was given much, much more time to improve and hone his immense force mastery. Take Darth Nox for example, her 5 ghosts give her an enormous amp, but they don't grant her immortality like Vitiate's draining of Nathema. I'm pretty sure UnuThul was drawing power in the same way Nox was, to immensely bolster his power.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well as I said, they're not newbs with telepathy, and Sidious rivals Vitiate in that regard.

When has Yoda demonstrated telepathic ability.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes he does. He completely and utterly mind ****s luke skywalker,

Legend rebutted this quite adequately. Note that Sidious failed to mind**** Marek when he was in fighting fitness.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
mentally shields himself from Plagueis's mental probing while a neophyte,

And Plagueis is noted for his telepathy is he? A glance at his respect thread says no. Thanks Silver!

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
has galaxy spanning reach with it,

As I recall, only in regards to people he's enkindled (great word) a Force Bond with, such as Mara and Vader.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
can ****ing sense people's thoughts (vitiate hasn't done this, Scourge could lie right to his face), etc.

I believe this is to do with Vader, whom as I recall Sidious created a direct link to his mind. Anyway, source?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Name Vitiate's best feat without preparation and focus (like with the 8k sith lords).

Vitiate is stated to be greater in his ability with telepathic domination that any before him. Including the Dread Masters, a single one of which could mentally enslave an entire army.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vitiate used Nathema to prolong his life for centuries, not explosively augment his power (which is what I would assume UnuThul was doing).

And yet it did explosively augment his power, on top of him constantly increasing his power for over a thousand years and constantly draining Revan of his power for 300 years. Do you think Unuthul is more powerful than Vitiate?

@ SWL

1. When has HoT shown to be a notable telepath? Although I do believe that telepathy also has somewhat of a linear relationship with one's overall personal power, and therefore the Hero could be considered a powerful telepath. On the other hand, Yoda, Sidious, and Luke are seemingly comparible if not superior in power to HoT. But tbh this Vitiate-can-simply-dominate-everyone thing seems to be getting out of hand.

2. I'm saying that he beat the shit out of the strike team before he mentally dominated them.

3. Vitiate's mental domination isn't an infallible trump card, he's not gonna dominate every opponent he faces.

4. Meaning that I was saying Sidious is a comparable telepath to Vitiate.

5. First of all, on your last point, i'm pretty sure the TFU novel reveals that Sidious knew about Marek all along. And here's the thing about Sidious and Vader, to both you and Neph:

"Keep still," Sidious interrupted, "before you damage yourself all the more." He gave Vader a moment to compose himself. "First, let me reiterate that the Jedi mean nothing to us. In having survived, Yoda and Obi-Wan aren't exceptions to the rule. I'm certain that dozens of Jedi escaped with their lives, and in due time you will have the pleasure of killing many of them. But of greater import is the fact that their order has been crushed. Finished, Lord Vader. Do I make myself clear?"
"Yes, Master," Vader muttered.
"In burying their heads in the sands and snows of remote worlds, the surviving Jedi humble themselves before the Sith. So let them: let them atone for one thousand years of arrogance and self-absorption."
Sidious watched Vader, displeased. "Once more your thoughts betray you. I see that you are not yet fully convinced."

Also, here's another thing about Sidious reading Vader's mind:

Boarding his shuttle, he ordered the pilot to lift off. A pity, my son, he thought. You could have joined me and together...we could have destroyed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy in his place. As he stared at the severed appendage in his hands, a sudden flash of insight struck the Dark Lord, realization dawning like the sunrise of Bespin. Perhaps, if you will not be turned, little Jedi, a suitable substitute may be arranged.
Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's...discomfort. "Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss my new trophy."
"Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.

Sidious has also erased the memories of millions of people to hide a star destroyer. He's a comparable telepath alright.

6. ok. I still don't see Vitiate mind****ing the top tier people.

7. Of course it really wouldn't take long, however to telepathically own Luke Skywalker off the cuff? Luke Skywalker, who actually has experience with telepathic assaults? Doubtful tbh.

8. Yup.

@Neph

1. When he basically read Dooku's mind 👆
And as I said personal power has alot to do with telepathy.

2. Fair enough. Do you think Vitiate would be able to accomplish the same?

3. Like I said, telepathy has somewhat of a linear relationship to personal power. Even Revan has galaxy-spanning TP.

4. And...Nute Gunray? Nah he has galactic reach on the whole.

5. Posted this above.

6. Palpatine has comparable showings.

7. The words make it sound all well and good (makes it sound like he's >>>Palpatine), but what we ultimately get is underwhelming in comparison. UnuThul drawing on the power of the entire colony (killiks are notable telepaths) approaches Vitiate's level. Also adding this is, what, 7-8 years before FotJ? By FotJ point Luke is logically more experienced, has greater mastery, and is possibly more powerful.

Also, on the topic of Vitiate's domination: You don't think Luke could undermine Vitiate with fold space? Like with, say, fold spacing his lightsaber? Also Luke's shatterpoint would prove to be useful.

I ultimately feel that Vitiate's mind domination is being overrated, and is not some trump card capable of destroying everyone.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Vitiate is stated to be greater in his ability with telepathic domination that any before him. Including the Dread Masters, a single one of which could mentally enslave an entire army.

Exactly. The fact that Dread Masters see only Vitiate worthy of their loyalty proves how powerful Vitiate is and has gained access to the deepest secrets of the Dark Side like no other. Would they serve Palpatine if they lived in Palpatine's era? I don't think so.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
@ SWL

1. When has HoT shown to be a notable telepath? Although I do believe that telepathy also has somewhat of a linear relationship with one's overall personal power, and therefore the Hero could be considered a powerful telepath. On the other hand, Yoda, Sidious, and Luke are seemingly comparible if not superior in power to HoT. But tbh this Vitiate-can-simply-dominate-everyone thing seems to be getting out of hand.

Vitiate's telepathic abilities serve him well in majority of the situations including battles (specially against the newcomers who have no idea what they are about to experience). This is one of the fundamental reasons that he has lasted so long in a Sith Empire. He have even gone as far as to destroy the minds of some of his opponents.

Vitiate's telepathic abilities are complemented by his power as well so why shouldn't they be effective?

Only two individuals in galactic history managed to develop countermeasures against Vitiate's telepathic abilities but they had gone through a lot beforehand and this is a plot device related development. You can't just credit your favorites with this kind of advantage such as Yoda, Luke, Sidious and vice versa. Even if some liberty is extended to your belief, it would still be apparent that Vitiate would disorient these individuals enough with his telepathic abilities to gain advantage and win.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
2. I'm saying that he beat the shit out of the strike team before he mentally dominated them.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
3. Vitiate's mental domination isn't an infallible trump card, he's not gonna dominate every opponent he faces.

Unless an individual benefits from a plot device, it would asinine to assume otherwise.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
4. Meaning that I was saying Sidious is a comparable telepath to Vitiate.

Vitiate is an absolute master of all spectrums of telepathic manipulation; Persuasion; Fear; Projection; Control; Illusion; Twist; Corrupt; Bonding and even Destruction.

Vitiate is extraordinary various areas of Force manipulation:-

Control:

1. Controlled 8000 Sith Lords simultaneously in a ritual, preventing defections and ensuring full compliance.
2. Controlled all of the Imperial Guard individuals simultaneously with a powerful telepathic linkage, preventing defections and ensuring full compliance. (galactic reach or greater).
3. Controlled all of the Children (unwitting pawns) on galactic scale simultaneously.
4. Could mask identity and nature of all of his minions; granted this ability to First Son as well (galactic reach or greater).
5. Could control unwitting pawns (telepathically manipulated individuals) simultaneously from lightyear distances (galactic reach or greater). This have been demonstrated even in the Jedi Knight story.

Sense/Other:

1. Forged bonds with many individuals, opening the door for Vitiate to manipulate bonded individuals in ways like never seen before. [See (3) and (4) above in control area to get an idea; Vitiate could even share his powers with his minions.]
2. Could sense danger in advance or presence of other Force-users like any trained Force-user. With bonds, could remain in touch with bonded individuals on galactic scale or greater.
3. Communicated with HoT from lightyears away with telepathic abilities, letting the Jedi know that he cannot allow his plans to succeed.
4. Communicated with the mighty Sith Warrior from lightyears away with telepathic abilities, luring him to Voss to assist him.

Alter:

1. Could activate dark personas of unwitting pawns from across the breath of galaxy to do his bidding.
2. Corrupted, disoriented and broke even (powerful) Force-users with oppressive/offensive telepathic manipulation.
3. Even destroyed minds of some Force-users with oppressive/offensive telepathic manipulation.
4. Could inflict fear or disorient individuals with mere presence or minimum effort.
5. Vitiate telepathically forced one of his rebellious executioners to turn his blade on himself and end his life.
6. Could probe minds of his targets to learn truth, should he desire.
7. Taunted rebellious Exal Kressh from lightyears away with telepathic abilities, even disturbed her in her dreams with telepathic abilities.

Now, of-course, Vitiate granted free will to many of his followers as well so that he won't be burdened with lot of tasks and matters of his Empire.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
5. First of all, on your last point, i'm pretty sure the TFU novel reveals that Sidious knew about Marek all along. And here's the thing about Sidious and Vader, to both you and Neph:

"Keep still," Sidious interrupted, "before you damage yourself all the more." He gave Vader a moment to compose himself. "First, let me reiterate that the Jedi mean nothing to us. In having survived, Yoda and Obi-Wan aren't exceptions to the rule. I'm certain that dozens of Jedi escaped with their lives, and in due time you will have the pleasure of killing many of them. But of greater import is the fact that their order has been crushed. Finished, Lord Vader. Do I make myself clear?"
"Yes, Master," Vader muttered.
"In burying their heads in the sands and snows of remote worlds, the surviving Jedi humble themselves before the Sith. So let them: let them atone for one thousand years of arrogance and self-absorption."
Sidious watched Vader, displeased. "Once more your thoughts betray you. I see that you are not yet fully convinced."

Also, here's another thing about Sidious reading Vader's mind:

Boarding his shuttle, he ordered the pilot to lift off. A pity, my son, he thought. You could have joined me and together...we could have destroyed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy in his place. As he stared at the severed appendage in his hands, a sudden flash of insight struck the Dark Lord, realization dawning like the sunrise of Bespin. Perhaps, if you will not be turned, little Jedi, a suitable substitute may be arranged.
Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's...discomfort. "Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss my new trophy."
"Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.

Sidious has also erased the memories of millions of people to hide a star destroyer. He's a comparable telepath alright.

Sidious also once performed a ritual to disturb Jedi on galactic scale and fuel Anakin's darker emotions during The Clone Wars.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
6. ok. I still don't see Vitiate mind****ing the top tier people.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
7. Of course it really wouldn't take long, however to telepathically own Luke Skywalker off the cuff? Luke Skywalker, who actually has experience with telepathic assaults? Doubtful tbh.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
8. Yup.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. When he basically read Dooku's mind 👆
And as I said personal power has alot to do with telepathy.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
2. Fair enough. Do you think Vitiate would be able to accomplish the same?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
7. The words make it sound all well and good (makes it sound like he's >>>Palpatine), but what we ultimately get is underwhelming in comparison. UnuThul drawing on the power of the entire colony (killiks are notable telepaths) approaches Vitiate's level. Also adding this is, what, 7-8 years before FotJ? By FotJ point Luke is logically more experienced, has greater mastery, and is possibly more powerful.

Also, Luke thwarted UnuThul's efforts to dominate his mind by using shared history between them as his trump card; whenever UnuThul reached out to Luke with his telepathic abilities, the Jedi would counter by bombarding UnuThul with thoughts of their past history; UnuThul didn't liked to be reminded of his (good) past so he would back-off.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also, on the topic of Vitiate's domination: You don't think Luke could undermine Vitiate with fold space? Like with, say, fold spacing his lightsaber? Also Luke's shatterpoint would prove to be useful.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I ultimately feel that Vitiate's mind domination is being overrated, and is not some trump card capable of destroying everyone.

Food for thought: Vitiate broke Revan and Malak with a fraction of his power! granted that the Jedi duo was on the precipice of the dark side at this point, still breaking them is no small feat. Now imagine the possibilities for Vitiate when he exerts his full power on someone.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Controlled 8000 Sith Lords simultaneously in a ritual, preventing defections and ensuring full compliance.

[/B]

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
He promised them power as the republic were close to destroying them, and thus most of them were willing participants in his ritual.

It is not easy for an unknown Sith Lord to keep 8000 others in a toe with just words.

SW Legend - the effects of Force drain can be achieved merely by dark side corruption in and of itself.

Read the RoTJ novel - note Sidious lightning on Luke and its effects - the novel clearly states that this lightning was "draining [Luke's] very essence"!

In Darth Plagueis; Sidious' master states that a Jedi may use Force lightning but without that corruption it is far weaker than Force lightning wielded by a Sith who's given himself fully to the dark side.

Same could be said for light side abilities - Oneness with the light side for instance, can be a greater power up than one might realize. Luke's power must have increased more than a dozen-fold for him to beat back Abeloth.

More than Oneness, potentially more even than the Force drain ritual Vitiate performed was the light side ability of Force harmony (with 30 Jedi unlocking untold depths in one Jedi's power pool), which allowed Drsk 82 to move 17 Imperial-II Class nigh-Super Star Destroyers into oblivion with TK. Although the act killed him - like the act of Vitiate's planetocide Force drain would have killed Nihilus.

I'd imagine destroying his master gave Sidious a similar boost in power.

My main point is, just because you see a neat ability, doesn't mean Vitiate>Sidious.

Sidious was demonstrably stronger, his corruption of the galaxy started with a ritual performed by Damage, augmented by a ritual performed by Plagueis and Sidious, augmented by the ritual seen on Sithisis (Star Wars Visionaries), further augmented by the Jedi Purge, further augmented throughout the disparity of the dark times and demonstrated when he slaughtered untold Ewoks and Bothans just before RoTJ, further augmented by his death and resurrection in Dark Empire.

By the Dark Times, Sidious had become a greater chasm of dark side energies than Vitiate ever could - the only reason Luke bested him in the lightsaber duel on the Eclipse II later on was because he was momentarily in a zone, using his compassion to empower his Form V, which seemingly exploited a weakness in Sidious' hatred fueled form and assault.

The RotJ novel was written 40 years ago. Its extremely outdated in its presentation of the force and force lightning. Force lightning draining essence isn't something that it actually does in current canon to my knowledge.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The RotJ novel was written 40 years ago.

So new developments in the EU add implications when not contradicted - unless said development is not apart of the many canons that comprise the whole.

Its extremely outdated in its presentation of the force and force lightning. Force lightning draining essence isn't something that it actually does in current canon to my knowledge.

They are merely different techniques that give a similar effect, the intensity of the Sith lightning grows stronger relative to the rate in which the victim grows weaker. It's a technique similar to Force drain, with basically the same effect - it is not unlike the light side power of Tutanamis, in which energy is absorbed through the body - increasing the Force user's power level (Jedi Vs Sith: The Essential Guide to The Force)

The power-boosting effects of Force drain are temporary (DE) and lost when a Sith uses too much power (TOR) dies or transfers his essence - or when he's severely injured (KoToR II + TOR). Though the void created from planetocide, when used in conjunction with Dark Heal, can take the power of the collected essences and use it to enchant the being's current vessel with immortality (TOR: Revan + TOR Encyclopedia).