Originally posted by Stealth MooseSaying KMC and other people are your personal therapy and then you act like a moron just makes others use you as a valid reason for legalizing adult abortion. Go play in traffic now like a good boy.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ground hog day.
Originally posted by Oneness
First of all, statements ARE meaningless. For God's sake the ROTS narrator says that Anakin is the fastest, strongest, greatest warrior, most powerful Force wielder, bestest pilot, smartest, most handsomest and popular Jedi and everyone knows it.
No, they are not. Statements are important tools with which to gauge a combatants ability. Sometimes they are more useful than feats, since feats can be interpreted whilst if a statement is clear enough, its rock solid. Like in the case of Satele saying she's inferior to the HoT.
Now let me give you a break here, this alone does not mean that the Hero is above Satele in her prime.... since Satele makes it clear in the game that she is not in her prime at the moment: "I am not the warrior I once was." So you could still argue that a younger Satele is above the Hero.
HOWEVER. Satele saying that the Hero of Tython is the greatest warrior in the Order ALSO would put them above the Barsen'thor in this regard. And the Barsen'thor definitely is above any incarnation of Satele.
Originally posted by Oneness
What feats put HoT above MALGUS????Malgus has demonstrated better TK than all but NJO Luke Skywalker, what with building-busting. That's a feat. He's demonstrated Force lightning on par with Nyriss as well - he cut down every Jedi he fought in lightsaber combat. Then a younger, less experienced Shan goes toe to toe with him, and with the help of a Republic Commander she BEATS him!
Well beating Vitiate for one thing. And Vitiate is above Malgus by quite a bit. If Vitiate couldn't overpower the Hero with lightning or TK, I don't see how Malgus would when Vitiate is above him in both respects by a healthy margin. You mention Nyriss level lightning, but Vitiates lightning was 'infinitely more powerful' than hers and the Hero still walked through it.
The Hero of Tython has 'unmatched lightsaber prowess' and 'unrivaled reflexes' and defeated Lord Scourge, who is above the Dark Council in terms of ability and has killed over a thousand extremely powerful Jedi and Sith. They defeated the Jedi of the Strike Team against Vitiate, said to be the 'strongest' 'most powerful and most resolute Jedi in the Order.' They defeated Fulminis, who is said to have once annihilated a city with a Force Storm. They defeated Tol Braga, who once fought a Dark Council member for days before turning him to the lightside. They blocked Lord freaking Vitiates lightning and cut him down before ragdolling him if you choose the right option. The Hero consistently fights people on par with Malgus and defeats them.
(also Malgus didn't cut down every Jedi he faced in lightsaber combat i.e. Satele)
Originally posted by Oneness
Oh, I apologize, before you start arguing with me you should state your dang thesis;So do you think that if Anakin was as pissed and focused as he was when he effortless SLAUGHTERED Dooku, was to engage The Hero of Tythoon, the Hero of Tythoon would win???
If not, don't even bother. If so, you crazy.
I don't know. Zonakin is extremely annoying to try to gauge. I see the Hero as Yoda level, but is Zonakin above Yoda? I'd say that this is a very close fight that I'd rather not call because of the nebulous nature of what we call Zonakin.
Originally posted by Oneness
Third, you're ****ing pissing with your stupid superiority complex, like you're the ****ing princess of the SW Vs Forum of KMC like "I might debate you if I think you're worth my time inferior member, uugggh."Shut up.
I am the pretty princess of KMC.
Originally posted by Oneness
@Neph: Listen, TORE claims he's the most powerful Jedi of the order as he attacks the Emperor's gaurds, ROTS claims Anakin is the most powerful Jedi of the order before claiming Yoda to be the most powerful ever.
I assume you're talking about Revan? Obviously since the Hero comes after Revan that quote wouldn't apply to her. She wasn't a member of the order at the time that fight took place.
RotS claims Anakin might be the most powerful Jedi ever, but later says Yoda is. The first statement doesn't really mean much. Neither do really.
Originally posted by Oneness
So that is a moot point, and it's safe to assume that Satele Shan was more powerful.
Lol.
Naaaaahhhhhhhhhh.....
She says the Hero is above her, and many other people agree with that statement:
“The Force is strong in you. Stronger than I've seen in decades.” Orgus Din (said in the same room as Satele)
“You are stronger than any Jedi I have known” - Bengal Morr
“You are the Jedi's finest.” – Lord Scourge.
Even Vitiate says that the Hero is immensely powerful.
Originally posted by Oneness
Furthermore, power means nothing in combat skill and proficiency mean everything. General Grevious many powerful Jedi Knights and he wasn't even Force sensitive.
Lol. "The Force is always the real key to victory." Power does NOT mean nothing in combat. Power alone can carry someone through fights. Look at Anakin and Luke.
Anyway, as I said above, the Hero is a master lightsaber duelist with 'unmatched lightsaber prowess'.
Originally posted by Oneness
Don't get me started on the even more dangerous non-Force sensitive, Durge.
Lol.
Grievous once beat Ventress and Durge at the same time. 😉
Originally posted by Oneness
Force sensitivity helps, but both Luke and Anakin had the greatest Force potential ever and neither of them mastered Dark Transfer on their own, their descendant Cade did.
Lol. That doesn't mean anything. Cade has a natural ability with the technique. Some people just have those powers naturally. Cognus was gifted in stunting others ability with the Force. Theres a braindamaged guy in TOR who can cloak entire fleets. Its isn't an indication of power or skill.
Originally posted by Oneness
Abeloth was dozens of times stronger than Luke and he actually defeated her...THRICE.Strength in the Force does not mean as much as you think, mmkay?
Lol. Thats because Abeloth is a hobo who stumbled onto incredible cosmic power. Shes the most incompetent person in Star Wars.
Originally posted by Oneness
What's the point to all this? The one argument you ever use for the Hero, an that has gone on long enough that I'm going to shut down - Vitiate was WEAKENED, Hero had a droid, Vitiate - despite all his power - was not too good at H2H; hell, Meetra would have killed him in TOR: Revan if she'd sacrificed Revan to decapitate the Emperor rather than disarm him.
Well clearly the important thing is that the Hero had a droid, lmao.
Anyway, as you said this has been brought up so many times I'm not even going to bother rebutting it.
Originally posted by Oneness
Mace Windu would have stalemated Sidious if Anakin hadn't arrived, but he did and Windu then beat the Sith Lord despite being far less powerful in the Force.Luke (with a fraction of a percent of Sidious' power level in the Force) beat Sidious at the strongest he'd ever been, BEFORE Leia used Force harmony, and summoning the Force storm did NOT weaken him - he lost because Luke was better at lightsaber combat.
Vader lost to Galen Marek for trying to bull rush the former in their first duel - in their second duel, Vader's staunch defense allowed him to stalemate a MORE POWERFUL clone of Galen Marek - who was forced attempt to trick him.
Head to head claims that Vader (don't know it was human or cyborg Vader) would defeat Yoda despite being far less powerful in the Force. It goes on to state Ep IV (or VI I haven't actually read it) Luke would defeat Ep II (or III) Anakin despite being weaker in the Force and less trained than the latter.
Anakin lost because he tried to bull-rush Obi-wan; and could not overwhelm his master's defense before-hand.
Maul lost to Vader even though he was clearly going to win, because Vader pulled a seppuku and was better at using his hatred to survive mortal wounds, sort of like Darth Sion.
So, I would like you to address those points - before going on to claim the more powerful Anakin losses in his most powerful mindset.
Second time this mother****er has come into a thread just to drop my name.
This is all irrelevant and uninteresting. I don't really have anything to say to it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, they are not. Statements are important tools with which to gauge a combatants ability. Sometimes they are more useful than feats, since feats can be interpreted whilst if a statement is clear enough, its rock solid. Like in the case of Satele saying she's inferior to the HoT.
Oh, so Obi-Wan was literally as powerful as Mace Windu? After all, character statements are better than feats.
Now let me give you a break here, this alone does not mean that the Hero is above Satele in her prime.... since Satele makes it clear in the game that she is not in her prime at the moment: "I am not the warrior I once was." So you could still argue that a younger Satele is above the Hero.
Okay, whatever dudess. Lets agree to drop the whole character statements arguments cause you ain't proven shii with that shit.
And the Barsen'thor [b]definitely is above any incarnation of Satele. [/b]
Who!? Source?
Well beating Vitiate for one thing.
A weakened Vitiate? That's all you got? Mmkay, Meetra almost killed him too. He sucks at lightsaber combat, and without his full power I don't see this as a reason to greatly exaggerate HoT's ability to win against anyone and everyone.
Luke beat a full power DE Sidious in a younger clone body. This is your only, and moot, feat.
And Vitiate is above Malgus by quite a bit.
Vitiate is as good in combat as Abeloth, maybe a little less powerful than Abeloth, but all he's got for combat is the Force. Malgus has a little something called skill.
If Vitiate couldn't overpower the Hero with lightning or TK,
DE Sidious couldn't overpower Luke with lightning or TK, so I guess Luke was stronger in the Force at that point in time.
I don't see how Malgus would when Vitiate is above him in both respects by a healthy margin.
Not when Vitiate is weakened, Malgus, Shan, and Revan could **** his shit up too.
You mention Nyriss level lightning, but Vitiates lightning was 'infinitely more powerful' than hers and the Hero still walked through it.
Hyperbole, though it probably was stronger by a full margin. Only difference is the example your using depicts an unweakened Tenebrae, as opposed to the weakened one in which Hero defeated.
The Hero of Tython has 'unmatched lightsaber prowess' and 'unrivaled reflexes' and defeated Lord Scourge,
Impressive, but that's no excuse to wank about the Hero now thered princess.
who is above the Dark Council in terms of ability and has killed over a thousand extremely powerful Jedi and Sith.
Source? That's like 1 Jedi per year between TOR: Revan and TOR.
They defeated the Jedi of the Strike Team against Vitiate, said to be the 'strongest' 'most powerful and most resolute Jedi in the Order.'
Who are they? The singular Scourge?
They defeated Fulminis, who is said to have once annihilated a city with a Force Storm.
Hyperbole, Darth Bane (POD) and Sidious (Visionaries) summoned Force storms as well. Along with many others; doesn't make Fulminis some unbeatable combatant. He may have had help like Bane did. This is an unquantifiable feat. Sure, Fulminis may be a good sorc - but Force storm =/= combat prowess.
They defeated Tol Braga, who once fought a Dark Council member for [b]days before turning him to the lightside.[/b]
Endurance =/= combat prowess - they could have been fighting like slow exhausted pansies for all we know. Again, is Scourge a plural group or a singular individual?
They blocked Lord freaking Vitiates lightning and cut him down before ragdolling him if you choose the right option.[b]
=/=canon.
[b] The Hero consistently fights people on par with Malgus and defeats them.
Like who, Scourge!? 😆
(also Malgus didn't cut down every Jedi he faced in lightsaber combat i.e. Satele)
Did Scourge ever fight Satele? Wait, are you claiming Scourge>>>Malgus!? ***** please.
I don't know. Zonakin is extremely annoying to try to gauge.
Well Zonakin is Force rage Anakin who has his wits about him - and unafraid to tap into everything he's got - unlike Mustafar Vader.
Vader could have regenerated himself, but lacked the rage to see it through. He repaired his lungs in his meditation chamber, but the joy of fixing his lungs prevented him from seeing the healing process through to completion, and they soon deteriorated again. [Rise of Darth Vader]
Lumiya stated that Vader's only link to the living was the Emperor [The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader] and Sidious believed that Vader could still unlock his full potential and destroy the Emperor [The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader] and Lucas himself claimed that Vader could have been twice as powerful as Sidious, but after Mustafar he remained at only 80% [Empire of Dreams Documentary]. Vader himself couldn't except what he had become, which was why he was afraid to tap into everything he had. [Rise of Darth Vader]
I see the Hero as Yoda level,
Baaaaaaaa hahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but is Zonakin above Yoda?
Not quite, he beat Dooku far more easily than Yoda but Yoda is very small, and can't anatomically fight like Anakin with his high-octane Djem So. As far as Force power untapped Yoda was better, but as far as skill Anakin was better. If they were to battle each other Yoda might get the upper hand; yet Head to Head states [I think] Cyborg Vader's defense would be very tough on ESB Yoda - it allowed him to stalemate the superior clone of Galen Marek, and Vader is 80% of Sidious in the Force. Though, Yoda as of ROTS would defeat Vader more easily than he did Dooku on Vjun for sure.
So no, but Zonakin is very close to Yoda in terms of combat prowess.
I'd say that this is a very close fight that I'd rather not call because of the nebulous nature of what we call Zonakin.
It's really not that nebulous? mysterious.
I am the pretty princess of KMC.
Absolutely.
I'll get to the rest after I've played TOR for a bit but:
Originally posted by Oneness
Who!? Source?
Originally posted by Nephthys
I assume you're talking about Revan? Obviously since the Hero comes after Revan that quote wouldn't apply to her. She wasn't a member of the order at the time that fight took place
I was talking about the HoTy.
[b]RotS claims Anakin might be the most powerful Jedi ever, but later says Yoda is. The first statement doesn't really mean much. Neither do really.
My point is character and narrative statements are all <feats.
She says the Hero is above her, and many other people agree with that statement:“The Force is strong in you. Stronger than I've seen in decades.” Orgus Din (said in the same room as Satele)
“You are stronger than any Jedi I have known” - Bengal Morr
“You are the Jedi's finest.” – Lord Scourge.
Even Vitiate says that the Hero is immensely powerful.
Yea, where are the feats that put the Hero above Malgus, Revan and Shan though???
Lol. "The Force is always the real key to victory." Power does NOT mean nothing in combat. Power alone can carry someone through fights. Look at Anakin and Luke.
Luke had instant lightsaber form mimicry [Insider 62] and the shatterpoint charism [FoTJ]; Anakin was the most gifted master of Djem So Dooku had ever seen [ROTS] - and a better tactician than Obi-wan (as demonstrated throughout the Clone Wars).
Anyway, as I said above, the Hero is a master lightsaber duelist with 'unmatched lightsaber prowess'.
Doesn't mean much.
Lol.Grievous once beat Ventress and Durge at the same time. 😉
Well I have to concede that your proved me wrong there; however my point is still no less accurate, many non-Force sensitives - with zero strength in the Force, can defeat Jedi and Sith because they are better fighters. Look at the Mandalorians. Same thing goes for HoTy and the weakened Vitiate, Luke and FP DE II young clone resurrected Sids.
Lol. That doesn't mean anything. Cade has a natural ability with the technique.
That's what I just said. That doesn't make him a better or more skilled combatant than Luke or lil orphan Ani.
Some people just have those powers naturally. Cognus was gifted in stunting others ability with the Force. Theres a braindamaged guy in TOR who can cloak entire fleets. Its isn't an indication of power or skill.
Agreed.
Lol. Thats because Abeloth is a hobo who stumbled onto incredible cosmic power.
Just like Nihilus - who went on to hone his Force drain ability; and utilized it far more devastatingly than Vitiate on his own (despite his inability to use to heal his corrupted flesh) and has better TK feats than Vitiate.
Shes the most incompetent person in Star Wars.
Not really, she battled the Ones on Mortis to a stalemate for quite sometime, proving that he power alone is sufficient to hold her own against three beings that trashed three powerful Jedi and could grab and deactivate lightsaber blades with their bare hands. Abeloth did beat Luke more times than Luke beat Abeloth, and she was weakened in their final encounter, the third time Luke one WITH HELP from Darth Krayt.
Well clearly the important thing is that the Hero had a droid, lmao.
Vitiate being a poor lightsaber combatant, and being weakened in the Force, are the important facts here here.
Anyway, as you said this has been brought up so many times I'm not even going to bother rebutting it.
Because you can't, because you blow that scenario out of proportion, etc.
This is all irrelevant and uninteresting. I don't really have anything to say to it.
"Concession accepted", as they say.
Who coined that universal vs forum term, btw?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Read here.
You expect me to read through that to see exactly where it is demonstrated that she is more capable in combat than Satele and Malgus???
I read a few of those quotes, and read a few of the feats shown in the videos, nothing from that game indicates that she's above Nomi Sunrider, much less Shan or Malgus!
Unless you want to give me a specific feat where she annihilates huge buildings or where she defeats Malgus like a younger, less experienced Shan did.
The novel Revan takes place three hundred years before TOR, Scourge is one person, and 'their' is sometimes used as a gender neutral designation when real gender is undetermined.
Have you played any of the Old Republic games from KotOR to TOR or read the books and comics relating to the era? You shouldn't argue from ignorance and assume to convince someone else.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Have you played any of the Old Republic games from KotOR to TOR
I prefer novels to games but I have played all three - and I've seen many of the videos.
or read the books and comics relating to the era?
I don't plan on spending a fortune on the comic series; unless there's an omnibus that collects a great deal of issues - wish the was one for dark horse' Clone Wars.
I read Revan.
You shouldn't argue from ignorance and assume to convince someone else.
I'm not - Neph greatly exaggerates and misconstrues the feats of the TOR Era.
Like you did with Ragnos, tell me, based on Omnibus: ToTJ part 1, do you consider Ragnos to be more powerful than ROTS Sidious, Force-wise??
Originally posted by Oneness
Oh, so Obi-Wan was literally as powerful as Mace Windu? After all, character statements are better than feats.
I said in some cases, loooooser! Not in all of them. Anakin was clearly talking out of his ass in that case and we have evidence to prove it. Sure, character statements can be wrong, but we'd need an actual reason to say they are. In the case of Hero > Satele, we do not have any reason to doubt her in her statement. Many people agree with her. Its pretty rock solid.
Originally posted by Oneness
Who!? Source?
You are so annoying. Here, just read these bits:
Originally posted by Nephthys
[b]Lifts and throws a large chunk of metal4.30. As I've said earlier that chunk its pretty damn huge. About the size of a school bus and appears to be solid metal. I estimate it to weigh a few hundred tons. Extremely impressive for how easily she throws it and how far.
Smashes through a huge blast door.
Its in the same video as the one above, but at 11.35. As I've said in the past, that door is ****ing huge and thick. And the Consular busts through it with one hand, bending it like play dough.
Tanked an explosion that destroyed a blast door.
9.30. The Consular is forced to get through a blast door by striking some explosive barrels with her lightsaber. The explosion consumes the door completely, but the Consular is unharmed. An amazing feat of defense. Also those of you who would argue gameplay, having to do this is written in the quest text and the barrels are the only way to get through.
Lord Vivicar
Vivicar is really a Jedi Knight called Parkanus, who was possessed by the spirit of the ancient Sith Lord Morrhage. Morrhage was a powerful Sith Lord, a threat to the entire Jedi Order while he was alive through the use of his plague, infecting Masters throughout the galaxy and in death he was able to defeat a team of 6 Jedi Knights, almost consuming them with his powers. According to SWTORE he possesses 'terrifying power'. In the game he displays this, able to heal the near fatally wounded Leranna, able to dominate hundreds of Republic troops (Permanently. Even after his defeat they fight for him) and enhance them with alchemy and able to overwhelm the mind and power of Yuon Par and use her as a puppet to fight the Consular. He was also able to infect hundreds of Jedi Masters across the galaxy with his plague. Its clear that he was a badass in his own right, extremely powerful.
Now what's more is his plague and this is where it gets truly legendary. His plague does not just weaken and kill the masters and drive them insane, but also siphons power from them that Vivicar can channel with the proper rituals. Which he performs before the fight. And bare in mind that Vivicar had infected HUNDREDS of Jedi Masters.
Finally recall that the Consular has been vastly weakening herself through saving the Jedi Masters AND had to fight through his capital ship filled with soldiers to get to him.
And she still defeats him.
In my opinion, this is one of the greatest feats any Jedi has ever performed in the entire mythos. [/B]
The Barsen'thor has also smashed through a Rakatan blast door that was said to be 'impregnable' and defeated the First Son, a being empowered by Vitiate and powerful enough to shield hundreds of powerful Sith across the galaxy from detection by the Jedi.
The Barsen'thor is legit one of the greatest Jedi OF ALL TIME.
Originally posted by Oneness
A weakened Vitiate? That's all you got? Mmkay, Meetra almost killed him too. He sucks at lightsaber combat, and without his full power I don't see this as a reason to greatly exaggerate HoT's ability to win against anyone and everyone.Luke beat a full power DE Sidious in a younger clone body. This is your only, and moot, feat.
Vitiate was standing in the Dark Temple, and extremely powerful darksde nexus, the Hero had to fight through the toughest bodyguards in the galaxy to get to him and weakened herself in saving an ally, on top of being weakened by the dark energy of the temple. They were equal going into the fight.
Meetra almost killed him with a surprise attack, the Hero beat him in direct combat. Irrelevant point.
Originally posted by Oneness
Vitiate is as good in combat as Abeloth, maybe a little less powerful than Abeloth, but all he's got for combat is the Force. Malgus has a little something called skill.
Malgus would get his skin peeled off and shoved up his ass by Vitiate. Also Vitiate has skill too. The guy defeated a Sith Lord and took over a planet at age 12. Plus given his experience and vaaaast darkside knowledge, I'd say he's got more skill than Malgus does. Sure, Malgus is the better duelist, but Vitiate vastly outstrips hi in the use of the Force.
Originally posted by Oneness
DE Sidious couldn't overpower Luke with lightning or TK, so I guess Luke was stronger in the Force at that point in time.
Well, he did beat him.
I'm just making the point that Malgus isn't going to achieve anything with his TK and lightning when even Vitiate couldn't against the Hero.
Originally posted by Oneness
Not when Vitiate is weakened, Malgus, Shan, and Revan could **** his shit up too.
No, they couldn't.
He'd still just dominate their minds. 😉
(other than Revan, but lets face it Revan would still lose in the same situation as the Hero)
Originally posted by Oneness
Hyperbole, though it probably was stronger by a full margin. Only difference is the example your using depicts an unweakened Tenebrae, as opposed to the weakened one in which Hero defeated.
Even if it is hyperbole, the obvious intent of the statement is to indicate huge superiority to Nyriss as you say. Also Vitiate was a) on a strong(er) darkside nexus and b) much stronger than he was as of Revan when he faced the Hero, weakened or not.
Originally posted by Oneness
Impressive, but that's no excuse to wank about the Hero now thered princess.
It is impressive. The Hero is more skilled and faster than Satele. ✅
Originally posted by Oneness
Source? That's like 1 Jedi per year between TOR: Revan and TOR.
Here. And no, theres only 300 years between Revan and TOR so its more like 4 a year. And bare in mind that the Encyclopedia says that Scourge is only sent after extremely powerful Jedi and Sith, so these aren't weak mooks.
Originally posted by Oneness
Who are they? The singular Scourge?
Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narez. The Jedi who accompany the Hero and Tol Braga in attacking the Emperor. They were turned to the darkside by Vitiate and the Hero is forced to defeat them. They are stated to be among the most powerful Jedi alive at the time.
Originally posted by Oneness
Hyperbole, Darth Bane (POD) and Sidious (Visionaries) summoned Force storms as well. Along with many others; doesn't make Fulminis some unbeatable combatant. He may have had help like Bane did. This is an unquantifiable feat. Sure, Fulminis may be a good sorc - but Force storm =/= combat prowess.
It isn't hyperbole. It says in his codex entry that hes said to have once destroyed an entire city with 'a raging storm of pure Force energy.' He's the Empires foremost expert on exterminating entire worlds. He was also so skilled as a Sorcerer that members of the Dark Council would PAY him for his darkside knowledge. He was able to drive even Sith Lords and Voss Mystics to gibbering madness before he learned the Voss ritual of healing and corrupted it to increase his powers of madness. The fact is that Fulminiss is an incredible Sith and the Hero beat his ass.
And you can use Force Storm in combat. Thanaton does.
Originally posted by Oneness
Endurance =/= combat prowess - they could have been fighting like slow exhausted pansies for all we know. Again, is Scourge a plural group or a singular individual?
Its takes force energy to fight, so it would indicate a massive amount of energy to keep fighting for that long as well as a huge amount of skill to keep fighting without slipping up. Its a hugely impressive feat. Besides, Tol Braga was also included in the quote about being one of the strongest Jedi in the Order and was a Jedi Council member.
Scourge is a single guy. The Hero beats him in Act II. You said you've read Revan, right? That Scourge from that book. The guy who kills Meetra.
Originally posted by Oneness
=/=canon.
Its unknown if its canon or not.
Originally posted by Oneness
Like who, Scourge!? 😆
Scourge, Fulminis, Tol Braga, Vitiate.
Originally posted by Oneness
Did Scourge ever fight Satele? Wait, are you claiming Scourge>>>Malgus!? ***** please.
Wtf? Why are you so hung up on Scourge? No, I was pointing out that you're wrong about Malgus cutting down every Jedi he faced since he fought Satele twice and didn't cut her down both times.
Originally posted by Oneness
Well Zonakin is Force rage Anakin who has his wits about him - and unafraid to tap into everything he's got - unlike Mustafar Vader.Vader could have regenerated himself, but lacked the rage to see it through. He repaired his lungs in his meditation chamber, but the joy of fixing his lungs prevented him from seeing the healing process through to completion, and they soon deteriorated again. [Rise of Darth Vader]
Lumiya stated that Vader's only link to the living was the Emperor [The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader] and Sidious believed that Vader could still unlock his full potential and destroy the Emperor [The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader] and Lucas himself claimed that Vader could have been twice as powerful as Sidious, but after Mustafar he remained at only 80% [Empire of Dreams Documentary]. Vader himself couldn't except what he had become, which was why he was afraid to tap into everything he had. [Rise of Darth Vader]
Sorry, what was the point of all that?
Zonakin remains difficult to place in terms of ability.
Originally posted by Oneness
Baaaaaaaa hahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Many agree with me. My arguments have convinced several here. Most people now put the Hero at around Yoda's level.
Originally posted by Oneness
Not quite, he beat Dooku far more easily than Yoda but Yoda is very small, and can't anatomically fight like Anakin with his high-octane Djem So. As far as Force power untapped Yoda was better, but as far as skill Anakin was better. If they were to battle each other Yoda might get the upper hand; yet Head to Head states [I think] Cyborg Vader's defense would be very tough on ESB Yoda - it allowed him to stalemate the superior clone of Galen Marek, and Vader is 80% of Sidious in the Force. Though, Yoda as of ROTS would defeat Vader more easily than he did Dooku on Vjun for sure.So no, but Zonakin is very close to Yoda in terms of combat prowess.
I agree, which is why I'm having difficulty deciding who would win this fight.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I said in some cases, loooooser! Not in all of them. Anakin was clearly talking out of his ass in that case and we have evidence to prove it. Sure, character statements can be wrong, but we'd need an actual reason to say they are. In the case of Hero > Satele, we do not have any reason to doubt her in her statement. Many people agree with her. Its pretty rock solid.
In no cases should a statement like that, especially when she says "greatest" and not "most powerful"; should be taken over feats what-so-ever. If a bunch of quotes affirming such a statement should consolidate one being "more powerful" which is a meaningless and loose term; Sidious is "more powerful" than Vitiate or Nihilus.
You are so annoying.
I'm annoying you? Awesome, at least someone is bothering to point out your obvious disregard for reason.
The Barsen'thor has also smashed through a Rakatan blast door that was said to be 'impregnable'
Whoopie - Vader tore apart a blast door with pure TK, did not need to Force grip a projectile in Purge. That's really one of Vader's mediocre feats. If you want to use game mechanics then play the first part of TFU; as Vader you get to kamehameha wave through a giant 50 foot tall Wookiee gate.
and defeated the First Son, a being empowered by Vitiate and powerful enough to shield hundreds of powerful Sith across the galaxy from detection by the Jedi.
That's not even a combat-applicable Force ability - well, apart from stealth but why is beating First Son>beating Malgus??
The Barsen'thor is legit one of the greatest Jedi OF ALL TIME.😐
I think Noomi Sunrider is a little better, tbh.
[quote]Vitiate was standing in the Dark Temple, and extremely powerful darksde nexus, the Hero had to fight through the toughest bodyguards in the galaxy
Galen Marek tops that.
to get to him and weakened herself in saving an ally, on top of being weakened by the dark energy of the temple.
We don't know if Vitiate was being honest about that statement, or by how much that ordeal weakened him during the fight.
They were equal going into the fight.
And Vitiate sucks at fighting.
Meetra almost killed him with a surprise attack, the Hero beat him in direct combat. Irrelevant point.
Moot point, huh?
Scourge is a single guy. The Hero beats him in Act II. You said you've read Revan, right? That Scourge from that book. The guy who kills Meetra.
Scourge stabbed Meetra in the back as she was preparing to engage Vitiate.
You're a hypocrite. 😐
Malgus would get his skin peeled off and shoved up his ass by Vitiate.
Not a weakened Vitiate, he'd decimate a weakened Vitiate.
Also Vitiate has skill too. The guy defeated a Sith Lord and took over a planet at age 12. [b]
By stripping him of his sanity with some esoteric power, not a in a straight duel.
By that reckoning, if he faced Hero at full power a second time, he'd just suppress his thought like he did the Jedi strike team.
[b]Plus given his experience and vaaaast darkside knowledge, I'd say he's got more skill than Malgus does. Sure, Malgus is the better duelist, but Vitiate vastly outstrips hi in the use of the Force.
Yet Vitiate was weakened when he fought Hero.
Well, he did beat him.
Vitiate was weakened, if his battle with Revan and the dark councils are any indication, one can make the argument he was way more weakened than Hero. There's no counter argument to that because we don't know how weakened either of them were, or if Hero was even weakened.
I'm just making the point that Malgus isn't going to achieve anything with his TK and lightning when even Vitiate couldn't against the Hero.
Source?
No, they couldn't.
Source?
[/quote]He'd still just dominate their minds.[/quote]
Source.
(other than Revan, but lets face it Revan would still lose in the same situation as the Hero)
Source?
We don't know how weakened Vitiate was - there's no statement about who was more weakened in that battle.
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[quoteEven if it is hyperbole, the obvious intent of the statement is to indicate huge superiority to Nyriss as you say. Also Vitiate was a) on a strong(er) darkside nexus and b) much stronger than he was as of Revan when he faced the Hero, weakened or not.[/quote]
Which was why he "Abelothed" them without a lightsaber.
[/b]It is impressive. The Hero is more skilled and faster than Satele. ✅[/b]
Faster??? Where's your source?
Here. And no, theres only 300 years between Revan and TOR so its more like 4 a year. , so these aren't weak mooks.
I'm pretty sure Grevious killed dozens and dozens of Jedi, and he doesn't even the Force.
If fricken Darth Maul had lived that long he could have killed as many Jedi and Sith. Maul and Opress did slaughter scores of Jedi wholesale.
How do you know that what Scourge considers "extremely" powerful isn't a weak mook compared to, say, Dooku???
And bare in mind that the Encyclopedia says that Scourge is only sent after extremely powerful Jedi and Sith
Where in the name of God is this stated, anyway?
Yes, beating Scourge is impressive, doesn't put Hero above Malgus, who has a waaaaaaaay better TK feat (building buster) than Barsen-thor's one "Rakatan blast-door" feat.
They are stated to be among the most powerful Jedi alive at the time.
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It isn't hyperbole. It says in his codex entry that hes said to have once destroyed an entire city with 'a raging storm of pure Force energy.'
Could the codex be exagerrating?? Did he have a Sith Amulet or Force augmenting crystal like the one Sadow used to destroy stars?? Did he do it alone??
DE Sidious summoned rifts in space time that the DE Sourcebook stated could rip the crust off of planets (probably hyperbole as well) and were shown to absorb fleets of Star Destroyers. Didn't do him much good in an actual llightsaber duel.
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He's the Empires foremost expert on exterminating entire worlds. He was also so skilled as a Sorcerer that members of the Dark Council would PAY him for his darkside knowledge. He was able to drive even Sith Lords and Voss Mystics to gibbering madness before he learned the Voss ritual of healing and corrupted it to increase his powers of madness. The fact is that Fulminiss is an incredible Sith and the Hero beat his ass.
Is this also from the codex entry. What does any of this have to with him being a powerful warrior? General Grevious might could beat him in a lightsaber duel for all we know.
And you can use Force Storm in combat. Thanaton does.
But could Fulminis?
Its unknown if its canon or not.
As is your whole misconception of Hero's super-powerful >Vitiate Force abilities.
Scourge, Fulminis, Tol Braga,
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Wtf? Why are you so hung up on Scourge?
You're the one who just claimed fricken Scourge, and even fricken Fulminis and Tol Braga, was more powerful than Satele Shan.
No, I was pointing out that you're wrong about Malgus cutting down every Jedi he faced since he fought Satele twice and didn't cut her down both times.
Perhaps Satele was to Hero as Yoda was to ROTS Anakin. Did you ever consider that!? 😱
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry, what was the point of all that?
To state that EP. III Anakin was just about as powerful as ROTS Sidious and Yoda when using Force rage, and a better warrior than either of them when he has his wits about him - that is the sum of Zonakin, slightly stronger than Vader who's 80% of Sidious - except more agile and almost as tactically inclined.
Zonakin remains difficult to place in terms of ability.
I'd place him above every PT + OT character except Sidious and Yoda.
Many agree with me. My arguments have convinced several here. Most people now put the Hero at around Yoda's level.
Neither Malgus nor Hero have anything that even begins to compare to Yoda's TK feat of destroying multiple carriers - each almost size of a the separatist capital ships - against their engines in Clone Wars.
Yoda hardly ever needed to duel the Sith he encountered (save Dooku and Sidious) he effortlessly disarmed Asajj Ventress in TCW: Ambush with TK - and claimed in Book of Sith that it's more impressive to win a battle without harming the opponent than otherwise.
I agree, which is why I'm having difficulty deciding who would win this fight.
It's not just this fight, though, you hide behind the obscurity of the character, just because he "could be" this powerful he is - and so you go on to ignore anyone who tries to argue that Revan, Satele, Malgus, etc might actually beat him - and that he's definately without a doubt a match for ****ing goddamn NJO Luke and Yoda and that he was for sure just as weakened as Vitiate based on NOTHING.