Originally posted by Nephthys
You might want to fix that first reply.
Can't edit after 15 minutes.
And you missed a bunch of Barsen'thor feats in that reply.No I didn't, none of them really prove that she's more powerful than Satele or Malgus among dozens of other Jedi and Sith I could name off the top of my head. None of them prove she wasn't either.
This is what you can't comprehend, you lack what's known as conclusive, undeniable evidence - and you just don't care, you put Hero as high as possible. I do not lack conclusive evidence when I place Zonakin above all PT-exclusive era characters save Sidious and Yoda.
The things the Barsen'thor pulls off are superior to the things Satele has. I lack evidence? I have a whole respect thread full of evidence. How about a comparison?
Satele shattering a blast door:
The Barsen'thor butt****ing a much more massive one:
and later smashed through an impregnable Rakatan vault door:
27.25.
The Barsenthor throwing a bus-sized chunk of metal with ease:
4.30.
Satele blocking a lightsaber is impressive, but the Barsen'thor blocked an explosion that demolished a blast door at point blank range:
9.30.
Satele needed Jace Malcoms help to defeat a wounded Malgus, whereas the Barsen'thor defeated an ancient Sith Lord who was draining power from HUNDREDS of powerful Jedi Masters, while she was heavily weakened.
You shouldn't be asking me what puts the Barsen'thor on Sateles level, I should be asking you wtf you're smoking to put Satele on the Barsen'thors level.
Originally posted by Oneness
I prefer novels to games but I have played all three - and I've seen many of the videos.
Played is one thing. Level of immersion in the material is another. Did you beat each of them? How many class quests did you complete in TOR? There's a LOT of lore in TOR and even Neph hasn't seen it all.
I don't plan on spending a fortune on the comic series; unless there's an omnibus that collects a great deal of issues - wish the was one for dark horse' Clone Wars.
I think there's a site with them all. Earlier I posted a Russian site that has most of the books and other comics.
I'm not - Neph greatly exaggerates and misconstrues the feats of the TOR Era.
And you haven't done such?
Like you did with Ragnos, tell me, based on Omnibus: ToTJ part 1, do you consider Ragnos to be more powerful than ROTS Sidious, Force-wise??
I think Ragnos is probably more powerful than RotS Sidious because of several reasons, such as:
* He's head and shoulders above Sith Lords who possess incredible knowledge and power in the Force, from Simus who could live as a mere head to Sadow who can conquer the Republic with his illusions and built a Force powered starship that can chuck star cores, Vitiate who dominated his entire planet before he needed to shave for the first time, and Kressh who comes from one of the most powerful Sith dynasties of the era and can crush eight to ten foot statues with a clench of his fist. He was undefeated ruled utterly for over a century.
* His staff, one artifact attributed to his knowledge of the Force, can drain entire planets of the Force and wreck temples.
* He keeps a pet in his tomb that pretty much killed every Sith who approached it but him for thousands of years. The Sith Warrior finally defeats it in TOR. I've posted a screenie showing its massive size.
* Ragnos is acknowledged as the leader of the Sith spirits who crown Exar and Ulic, and IIRC he was head of the Korriban sith spirits who spoke with Palpatine early in his career.
* His codex entry reinforces his cunning and power in retrospect.
Now, none of these are binding absolutes. I sometimes ham up the idea that I revere the character more to play into perceptions already created about me (and because I enjoy being ridiculous when it suits me), but I don't say Ragnos is absolutely better than anyone without proper combat to analyze. Implicity, he's up there. I think Nihilus and Vitiate are legitimate contenders in the Sith arena, and DE Sidious, but not RotS Sidious. Again, Ragnos' vassals were beings of immense augmented power and with a knowledge of the Force PT era Sith would be thrilled to pillage because of such. Sidious himself admits to the knowledge of Sadow and Kun benefits from what little Sadow could stuff in his ship and accomplish in Exile. Nadd took Sadow's limited teachings and conquered a world and established a Sith dynasty. Ragnos controlled many Sith Lords who in turn owned many planets in the Sith Empire. Only Vitiate has ruled more dangerous vassals by virtue of his cunning and power.
You recall how Sidious is definitively better than his apprentices? Maul and Savage are fleas to him, and Ventress likewise. Dooku, himself an impressive Jedi master, is still inferior and Sidious isn't threatened. His greater Dark Side knowledge allows him to comfortably manipulate the Count.
Now image Ragnos sitting on his throne with apprentices of greater power, along with Sith Lords who exist unrelated to him and pursue their own interests, and Sith openly kill for the throne (open dueling is actually a Sith tradition, even if assassination still exists and is used). Only person who lived after dueling Ragnos was Simus, who was left alive as an example and allowed to serve as an advisor.
Now tell me you expect this guy to get TK'd over his desk or run from Yoda.
No, I haven't ever blown TOR era characters out of proportion, Moose.
To both of you about Barsen'Thor and Marka Ragnos;
None of those feats or 'power-scale theories' prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that Barsen'Thor>Satele Shan and Marka Ragnos>Sidious - and neither disprove it either. There's a propensity to just say, "they could be more powerful, so they are" because they "have more wizardly Force abilities" that makes them automatically able to win in a fight. I disagree entirely, the Force did Grevious' victims a lot of good. Sidious' mastery of sorcery did him a lot of good in his battle with Luke on the Eclipse II. Mhm.
What we have here is biasm toward the TOR era.
I find the collective lack of faith in the PT/OT on this forum, disturbing.
😮💨
Originally posted by NephthysThat shows just how stupid your assumptions are - when there's nothing that concretely demonstrates that Barsen'Thor's and Scourge's feats can't be surpassed by Satele and Malgus - or that the opponents they beat are better.
Also Satele and Malgus are from the TOR era.
Just because one has more TK feats than the other, or one has an ability that the other doesn't they automatically win in a fight. You can't prove anything, all you can do is say, "well I like this one more". And that's all you've been doing.
This is an MMO that is all over the ****ing place. It's gotten way worse since TOTJ and Kotor. There needs to be more discretion, imo.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm sitting, watching...and laughing at the notion of Satele>>Barsen/HoT.
I think this ">" should stop being used as well. It's as loose a term as 'more powerful'. Shaak Tii is more powerful than Grevious, and Grevious could probably still beat her.
TOR has become a cluster**** of inaccuracies in this vs forum, I'm dignified that the PT era EU hasn't been sullied in such a way, we should keep them separated.
You ignorant little snots.
Lmao, you hypocrite. You were the one screaming for feats on the page 2, remember?
"What feats put HoT above MALGUS????
Malgus has demonstrated better TK than all but NJO Luke Skywalker, what with building-busting. That's a feat. He's demonstrated Force lightning on par with Nyriss as well - he cut down every Jedi he fought in lightsaber combat. Then a younger, less experienced Shan goes toe to toe with him, and with the help of a Republic Commander she BEATS him!"
I give you plenty of feats indicating that the Barsen'thor is above Satele, and you weasel around it by saying nothing concretely proves it. The Barsen'thor has superior TK to Satele, superior defensive ability and has defeated an opponent more powerful than a wounded Malgus. She's better than Shan in every respect but lightsaber ability.
The way we debate here is to compare feats and combat abilities. How else do you think we should decide how Satele vs Barsen'thor stacks up? Step up yo game fool!
Originally posted by Oneness
No, I haven't ever blown TOR era characters out of proportion, Moose.
Derp. You know what I meant: that you show bias towards your favored era which is PT/OT and write everything else off as inferior and largely not worth your time. Your unrivaled ignorance of much of EU outside of your scope of bias just drives this home.
To both of you about Barsen'Thor and Marka Ragnos;
None of those feats or 'power-scale theories' prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that Barsen'Thor>Satele Shan and Marka Ragnos>Sidious - and neither disprove it either. There's a propensity to just say, "they could be more powerful, so they are" because they "have more wizardly Force abilities" that makes them automatically able to win in a fight. I disagree entirely, the Force did Grevious' victims a lot of good. Sidious' mastery of sorcery did him a lot of good in his battle with Luke on the Eclipse II. Mhm.
What we have here is biasm toward the TOR era.
I find the collective lack of faith in the PT/OT on this forum, disturbing.
😮💨
1. This isn't an exact science and combatants don't have objective power levels that stack against each other in a simple fashion. That's why we make arguments and use the best conjecture we can with context and sources. There is no absolute power chart for EU, and the point of this sub forum is to argue some semblance of one if not establish relative tiers.
You like to hide behind disdain and absolute statements which favor your bias while pretending like comparable or better EU feats are irrelevant. This is confirmation bias.
2. I explicitly noted that Ragnos' relative power is entirely my opinion and that his standing is entirely implied since he is never shown in canon alive. Way to strawman.
You never answered me on how much you played, so concession accepted on your part of ignorance.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I give you plenty of feats indicating that the Barsen'thor is above Satele,
They don't prove anything - moreover they don't indicate anything either. As no TK feat from Barsen matches Malgus - who was forced into a collapsing mountain side by the grand Jedi master whom you so glibly assert has less power in the Force than Barsen'Thor - not even close, cur.
and you weasel around it by saying nothing concretely proves it.
They're don't even stack up to Marek's Star Destroyer feat. Vader was demonstrated as having the ability to take down Galen Marek in TFU II when he finally learns to utilize patience and defense, stalemating the more powerful Starkiller Clone.
The Barsen'thor has superior TK to Satele,"The" Barsen'Thor, "The" Scourge? Please use proper English, they aren't organizations, even if you wank them. No, neither Scourge no Barsen'Thor have TK feats that are proven to be above Satele's caliber. Oh? It's a larger blast door? So what!? The Grand Jedi Master shoved Malgus into a mountain side and made it explode and collapse upon him. That's before either Malgus or Satele reach their full potential. They have more indication of being at the top of the TOR era food-chain than Barseb'Thor and Hero. Though Revan comes close to their power levels - and Vitiate has a lot of power from his rituals - but most of his abilities, like in the case of Ragnos, are merely esoteric and don't mean too much against characters like Sidious, Moosey baby.
superior defensive ability
Nope.
and has defeated an opponent more powerful than a wounded Malgus.Well that's not really a fair comparison, is it?
Kinda like the inaccurate comparison of weakened Vitiate loosing to a maybe-weakened Hero - glibly pulling them being equally weakened out of your ass to grasp at straws for a game you spend too much time on.
She's better than Shan in every respect but lightsaber ability.
And power in the Force. But other than that, absolutely, superior in every way, except maybe any way that matters in a fight.
The way we debate here is to compare feats and combat abilities.
So quit blowing them out of proportion so as to deceive the TORetards.
How else do you think we should decide how Satele vs Barsen'thor stacks up? Step up yo game fool!
I think all of you TOR people need to get your era together before challenging Anakin-Sidious-Yoda, or anyone else from the PT/OT era for that matter. Because we have that era's hierarchy figured out.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Derp. You know what I meant:
Now you know how it feels! This is what Neph does to throw me off my game, she acts thick.
that you show bias towards your favored era which is PT/OT
Nope.
and write everything else off as inferior and largely not worth your time.
I'm supposed to be working on the Beal Conjecture by now to win 1 mill, and I haven't even finished the 2 quizzes that precede that work yet. I'm a little schedule because of this time your taking. It's going to stop after tonight. You can continue off arguing with my ghost.
1. This isn't an exact science and combatants don't have objective power levels that stack against each other in a simple fashion.
Yet there's a generally accepted hierarchy about the PT era here, the wave of TOR-baised debaters are always conflicting between victors in the era; ya'll are tested fanatics, to put it delicately.
That's why we make arguments
Yes.
and use the best conjecture we can with context and sources.
Absolutely.
There is no absolute power chart for EU, and the point of this sub forum is to argue some semblance of one if not establish relative tiers.
And Neph has ****ed that up more than Sw Legend and yourself, and I'm trying to smack some sense into her and you're just getting in the way. 😐
You like to hide behind disdain and absolute statements which favor your bias while pretending like comparable or better EU feats are irrelevant. This is confirmation bias.
Not really, are you using my counter examples for Hero's praise in TOR? I was trying to demonstrate how character statements are necessarily falsifiable and loosely indicative.
2. I explicitly noted that Ragnos' relative power is entirely my opinion and that his standing is entirely implied since he is never shown in canon alive. Way to strawman.
You are to me saying that these are opinionated comparisons: you have to understand I'm on a time budget and subvocalize as of now so I can't read at 2000 words per minute yet, I can only read as fast as I can talk, so I didn't have time to read over your post and I agree that I should have stuck to arguing with Neph, who only uses opinionated comparisons.
You never answered me on how much you played, so concession accepted on your part of ignorance.
Time budget, not ignorance.
Originally posted by Oneness
In no cases should a statement like that, especially when she says "greatest" and not "most powerful"; should be taken over feats what-so-ever. If a bunch of quotes affirming such a statement should consolidate one being "more powerful" which is a meaningless and loose term; Sidious is "more powerful" than Vitiate or Nihilus.
Thats your opinion. I disagree. The statement has plenty of support behind it, so I see no reason to doubt it. Plus the Hero has the feats to back it up.
Originally posted by Oneness
I'm annoying you? Awesome, at least someone is bothering to point out your obvious disregard for reason.
No, I'm annoyed at your laziness. You'd think you could be bothered to spend 5 minutes reading a respect thread.
Originally posted by Oneness
Whoopie - Vader tore apart a blast door with pure TK, did not need to Force grip a projectile in Purge. That's really one of Vader's mediocre feats. If you want to use game mechanics then play the first part of TFU; as Vader you get to kamehameha wave through a giant 50 foot tall Wookiee gate.
Vader doing something doesn't mean it sucks. And that blast door was likely smaller and thiner than the one the Barsen'thor breaks through here:
fyi, the Barsen'thor does that right at the start of the game, so she's still developing her power and she does it after weakening herself performing the Shielding technique.
I'll also bet the blast door Vader broke through was smaller than the Vault Door Thor did.
Also, no I don't want to use game mechanics.
Originally posted by Oneness
That's not even a combat-applicable Force ability - well, apart from stealth but why is beating First Son>beating Malgus??
Its an indication of power. It takes a lot to shield Sith all over the galaxy from detection. Its a feat akin to what Sidious did to avoid the Jedi finding him, but on a much larger scale. Of course, I'm not saying the First Son is above Sidious, just comparing the two feats.
Satele only beat a wounded Malgus with the help of Jace Malcom and after she'd amped herself on absorbing a lot of energy from his lightsaber. The Barsen'thor by contrast beat the First Son directly after fighting 3 Children of the Emperor (very powerful Sith), two of them at once.
Originally posted by Oneness
😐I think Nomi Sunrider is a little better, tbh.
Nah.
Originally posted by Oneness
Galen Marek tops that.
Uh, what?
Originally posted by Oneness
We don't know if Vitiate was being honest about that statement, or by how much that ordeal weakened him during the fight.
Theres no reason to think he's lying and the Hero was also weakened by fighting through the Imperial Guard and Kaas City.
Originally posted by Oneness
And Vitiate sucks at fighting.
Vitiate easily defeated 4 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at the same time in the Knight storyline. He kicked your ladylove Revans ass. Twice he's defeated entire Dark Councils. Forgive me if I disagree with your assessment.
Originally posted by Oneness
Moot point, huh?
Yes, your point was completely moot. The two situations have nothing in common.
Originally posted by Oneness
Scourge stabbed Meetra in the back as she was preparing to engage Vitiate.You're a hypocrite. 😐
No, I was just reminding you who he was, not trying to use that as an argument in Scourges favor. 😬
Originally posted by Oneness
Not a weakened Vitiate, he'd decimate a weakened Vitiate.
I reckon even a weakened Vitiate could take him.
Originally posted by Oneness
By stripping him of his sanity with some esoteric power, not a in a straight duel.By that reckoning, if he faced Hero at full power a second time, he'd just suppress his thought like he did the Jedi strike team.
The Hero could resist Vitiates power when they fought in the Dark Temple. The reason why the Hero fights Vitiate with only T7 was because no-one else could resist Vitiates domination. Satele and Scourge both say that only the Hero has the power to resist Vitiate.
Originally posted by Oneness
Yet Vitiate was weakened when he fought Hero.
No shit.
Originally posted by Oneness
Vitiate was weakened, if his battle with Revan and the dark councils are any indication, one can make the argument he was way more weakened than Hero. There's no counter argument to that because we don't know how weakened either of them were, or if Hero was even weakened.
I'm not even bothering any more. This is just tedious. We're just repeating this over and over.
Originally posted by Oneness
Source?
Originally posted by Oneness
Source?Source.
Only the Hero of Tython and Revan can resist his influence.
Originally posted by Oneness
Source?We don't know how weakened Vitiate was - there's no statement about who was more weakened in that battle.
Vitiate was also greatly amped by the Dark Temple and if we're talking the same situation, Revan would be weakened too. Plus Vitiate is much more powerful than he was when he fought Reavn, as SWTORE says that his force power is 'ever-increasing' and he drains Revan constantly after his capture.
Originally posted by Oneness
Faster??? Where's your source?
I was talking about 'unrivaled reflexes', though the Hero also has feats of blitzing powerful Sith Warriors.
Originally posted by Oneness
I'm pretty sure Grevious killed dozens and dozens of Jedi, and he doesn't even the Force.If fricken Darth Maul had lived that long he could have killed as many Jedi and Sith. Maul and Opress did slaughter scores of Jedi wholesale.
How do you know that what Scourge considers "extremely" powerful isn't a weak mook compared to, say, Dooku???
Yeah, but they didn't kill that many, did they? It is one of the highest numbers of personal kills in the entire mythos. Thus his battle experience will be off the charts, as will his training, having 300 years worth of it (when in a mere 30 he mastered 3 lightsaber forms). Scourge is a complete badass.
It wasn't Scourge who decided on it, it was Vitiate remember? And with Vitiate, anyone who can actually gain his attention is pretty impressive.
Originally posted by Oneness
Where in the name of God is this stated, anyway?Yes, beating Scourge is impressive, doesn't put Hero above Malgus, who has a waaaaaaaay better TK feat (building buster) than Barsen-thor's one "Rakatan blast-door" feat.
I-what? I said that. It's in the ecyclopedia. I said that it was in there. 😐
"When a Jedi grew too powerful, or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat.' - SWTORE pg. 94
Swtore also terms him the 'ultimate executioner'. In 300 years Vitiate found no-one superior to him.
Originally posted by Oneness
😐
They are the 'strongest', 'most powerful and most resolute Jedi in the Order.' Included in that are: The Hero of Tython, Tol Braga, Leeha Neraz and Warren Sedoru.
Originally posted by Oneness
Could the codex be exagerrating?? Did he have a Sith Amulet or Force augmenting crystal like the one Sadow used to destroy stars?? Did he do it alone??DE Sidious summoned rifts in space time that the DE Sourcebook stated could rip the crust off of planets (probably hyperbole as well) and were shown to absorb fleets of Star Destroyers. Didn't do him much good in an actual llightsaber duel.
🙄
No. Unknown, but likely not or he would have used it in the Voss missions. Those things would have come in real ****ing handy there. It says he destroyed it, no mention of others.
And DE Sidious is widely regarded as the most powerful Sith ever because he could do that. 😬
Originally posted by Oneness
Is this also from the codex entry. What does any of this have to with him being a powerful warrior? General Grevious might could beat him in a lightsaber duel for all we know.
The part about the Dark Council paying for his darkside knowledge is. And it all speaks to his ability as a sorcerer. His powers of madness would be extremely useful in combat for instance.
Originally posted by Oneness
But could Fulminis?
Theres absolutely no reason why he wouldn't be able to do so. If he could summon one to destroy a city, its obvious he could do so on a smaller scale in a fight.
Originally posted by Oneness
😆
Nice argument.
Originally posted by Oneness
Perhaps Satele was to Hero as Yoda was to ROTS Anakin. Did you ever consider that!? 😱
I don't know what you mean.
Originally posted by Oneness
To state that EP. III Anakin was just about as powerful as ROTS Sidious and Yoda when using Force rage, and a better warrior than either of them when he has his wits about him - that is the sum of Zonakin, slightly stronger than Vader who's 80% of Sidious - except more agile and almost as tactically inclined.
So about equal to the Hero then?
Originally posted by Oneness
I'd place him above every PT + OT character except Sidious and Yoda.
So would I.
Originally posted by Oneness
Neither Malgus nor Hero have anything that even begins to compare to Yoda's TK feat of destroying multiple carriers - each almost size of a the separatist capital ships - against their engines in Clone Wars.Yoda hardly ever needed to duel the Sith he encountered (save Dooku and Sidious) he effortlessly disarmed Asajj Ventress in TCW: Ambush with TK - and claimed in Book of Sith that it's more impressive to win a battle without harming the opponent than otherwise.
The Tartakovsky Clone Wars is heavily exaggerated. I wouldn't buy too much into what Yoda does in it. Its way above what he can usually do. This is the same material that had Rivi-Anu, a completely unknown padawan, hold up a Star destroyer long enough to evacuate an entire army.
You keep repeating the same fight, reposting the video, reposting the quotes, yet you're ignoring that fact that nothing states "Vitiate and Hero were just as weakened, and therefore they might as well have been at full power" like you have.
That feat is useless, stop using it. Drop it.
Clone Wars is exaggerated?
The whole ****ing pre- and post-pt era, the whole eu is exaggerated and expanded upon the films.
Try again.
Originally posted by NephthysYou're ahead of yourself, you don't even have the TOR hierarchy ordered correctly in that game-biased head of yours.
So about equal to the Hero then?
Originally posted by NephthysThe same can be said for all the characters of TOR - you take articles from the internet (e-canon???), mix them with game scenes, and you think Clone Wars shouldn't be canon?
Bro, Clone Wars is massively exaggerated. According to that cartoon, Windu could have destroyed all the droids on Geonosis by himself.Or hell, just get Force God Rivi-Anu to vaporise everything with laser eye-beams.
No, I won't give you that. Checkmate.
If you can use statements and feats from game scenes I can use Clone Wars and anything else I want.
Vader is 80% Sidious. In the Empire at War series Sidious' regular old Force lightning (not Force storm) lights up the surface of a planet and kills thousands of Republic troops.
He slaughtered hundreds upon hundreds of armed Bothans for giving the Rebels the plans to the Death Star (referenced in ANH to affirm canon) by subjugating scores of them at once (like Vitiate), or by killing them with Force lightning and with his lightsaber.
Get the TOR hierarchy together.
Barsen-Thor and Hero have nothing that put them above the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, or below.
Scourge has nothing that puts him anywhere near Darth Malgus, for sure.
HoT blitzes Sith Lords, takes down Dark Council members regularly, is regarded as the Jedi's finest, the vanguard of the order, and the greatest warrior among it's ranks, collapses ceilings, and even defeats Vitiate on what is arguably the most powerful Dark Side Nexus in the galaxy. If you choose the Dark Side options, the Hero both ragdolls Vitiate and dominates the mind of Tol Braga--The former most resolute Jedi in the Order.
That's good enough to put him high tier for me. As for the Barsen, I put her above Satele for now, but I'd appreciate saber feats.