Alternative Battle: Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Dooku and Grievous

Originally posted by Lord Stark
But the point is Dooku could have ragdolled him. The thing is that, every time they've dueled it was under the pretext that Skywalker was not the primary objective. If Palpatine ever gave Dooku the order to kill him it'd be game over.

Where are you getting this from? Dooku has consistently used his Force Powers on Skywalker. He's even attempted to kill him after flooring him with the Force in TCW Movie. Yet he failed.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Near equals in lightsaber combat? Sure, although Dooku taking both Kenobi and Skywalker on the Invisible Hand then seems even more impressive. Force wise though the Count is on a different level.

Nah they're near equals in an all out.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The game designers had a completely different interpretation.

It has to directly contradict the book for the book's decription to be non-canon. Sacrificing himself by putting his force defenses down is not something we see, but something that's explained in the novel from Starkiller's POV.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The game designers had a completely different interpretation.
YouTube video

2:52

I think this is a pretty accurate depiction of a "what would happen" if Marek tried to defeat Sidious right then and there.

The game interpretation is non-canon. The novel is the canon version.

If the game was canon then we'd have to consider health bars and save points to be canon. Or the fact that Jedi/Sith get slashed with lightsabres and all it does in reduce their health bars as opposed to cutting them in half.

Or the fact that in the game Galen can die multiple times only to come to life again at his last save point. Should we consider that canon?

To put it another way, a game is meant to be an experience for a player to enjoy. This compromises its effectiveness as a story. A novel is an actual story. That is why it makes more sense for the novel to be the canon version.

That being said, I agree that Galen could not have defeated Palpatine in a straight-up fight. However I don't think it's unfeasible that he could have some degree of success which is what the novel shows i.e. pushing his lightning back and grappling with him so that he gets zapped by his own power just enough to hurt a bit.

Again, Galen can hurt him a little under certain circumstances, but not come anywhere close to defeating him.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The game interpretation is non-canon. The novel is the canon version.

Proof?

Citing game mechanics doesn't count.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Proof?

Citing game mechanics doesn't count.

Right here:

Originally posted by me
If the game was canon then we'd have to consider health bars and save points to be canon. Or the fact that Jedi/Sith get slashed with lightsabres and all it does in reduce their health bars as opposed to cutting them in half.

Or the fact that in the game Galen can die multiple times only to come to life again at his last save point. Should we consider that canon?

Sorry but we can't just ignore game mechanics just because they're inconvienient. They're an intrinsic part of the game. We can't just ignore the bits we don't like. If we could then we would consider Jar-Jar Binks to be non-canon (yes I know, bashing Jar-Jar got old long ago, sorry, but it's the clearest example I could think of.)

However the real proof is here:

Originally posted by me
To put it another way, a game is meant to be an experience for a player to enjoy. This compromises its effectiveness as a story. A novel is an actual story. That is why it makes more sense for the novel to be the canon version.

To reiterate, a novel works better as a storytelling medium than a game. Ergo the novel is what should be treated as canon. It's just more logical.

Things like health bars aren't canon, but the story and cutscenes are.

Novels aren't superior storytelling vehicles than games, just different. In this case the game is the original source and primary medium for the story to take place in. I'd put my chips on that over the novel.

Neph is right; you're confusing game content for game mechanics here.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]Where are you getting this from? Dooku has consistently used his Force Powers on Skywalker. He's even attempted to kill him after flooring him with the Force in TCW Movie. Yet he failed.

Uhh Dooku force choked and electrocuted him in Crisis on Naboo. He could have ended it there.

Nah they're near equals in an all out.

Nah. Dooku has shown the ability to rag doll Anakin.

It has to directly contradict the book for the book's decription to be non-canon. Sacrificing himself by putting his force defenses down is not something we see, but something that's explained in the novel from Starkiller's POV.

Game is the primary source. The comic and the novel are supplementary.

Why is this even getting discussed?

a) Anakin kicks Dooku who ends on the ground.
b) Dooku has the advantage because og Magnaguards.
c) Anakin disarms Dooku and chokes him but gets electrocuted.
d) Dooku loses his head.

Really, there is little disparity between the two. Anakin is the more powerful telekinetic (not more efficient, as he lacks Dooku's mastery), has a few physical edges and has a vast amount of Force reserves which allows him to keep going.

On the distinction between game and book, I'd actually argue that in some ways the story told by the Starkiller game is superior to the one in the book. I played parts of the game after reading the book, and it was amazing how much the book read like a really articulate description of what was on screen. There wasn't much of Stover's metaphysical poetry, there wasn't too much introspection that was absent in the game, and the fights followed the cutscenes (iirc) faithfully. From a purely narrative view, the game seems to come before the novel.

Moreover, the game offers a level of immersion superior to the novel in the form of many different opportunities to project motivations and nuance onto Starkiller's actions that were otherwise absent. For example, I much preferred to lift and then shock troopers because their fear served as a single grain of suffering to balance out the weighty list of harm done by the empire. Starkiller was an impassioned retributivist until the death of his mentor, at which point the Force showed him that hate leads only to more suffering.

Of course, this does not change my estimation of his capabilities; I know exactly how successful he was when fighting walkers and rancors; the scripted events are the unifying or consistent thread across all iterations of Starkiller. Metaphysically there is only one canon Starkiller, which we see through the foggy window of media. The cutscenes are a refinement of the shared characteristics that comprise Starkiller the being in itself. The gameplay is the subjective experience of Starkiller-ness which we are limited to by our limited knowledge of the universe. By contrast, the book is a mere list of the things which are confirmed to be Starkiller-characteristics. We discard nuance and subtlety in pursuit of some flat objectivity which would otherwise have been immediately obvious. Visual data is much easier to interpret than literature, anyway.

Originally posted by Arhael
Did you even read the book? Sidious was hauling in pain until Marek chose to sacrifice himself to save rebels from storm troopers and Vader.

a) It was from Marek's point of view

b) Sidious was toying with Marek

c) Marek had never felt such energy (he compared his own powers like ''toys'' in comparison to the enegy unleashed by Sidious)

I'm not sure if you read the book.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uhh Dooku force choked and electrocuted him in Crisis on Naboo. He could have ended it there.

That wasn't "Crisis on Naboo". That was "Shadow Warrior," the only time he was told to take him alive, and required the aid of several magnaguards to do so.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nah. Dooku has shown the ability to rag doll Anakin.

Only in TCW movie, and even with the ragdolling he still couldn't kill Skywalker. In "Crisis on Naboo" Skywalker was pretty much tanking all of Dooku's TK Attacks. The only attack that floored Skywalker was a rare opportunity for a full TK+FL Combo. And even that after Dooku was already floored and Dooku was actually the one being choked.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Given that...

a) Ye, very convenient. This excuse gives you power to tell entirely different story assuming that Marek's views are lies, when suits you.

b) "The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain."

Good luck proving that he is toying and denying the resemblance to final contest between Sidious and Yoda.

c) God damn it, I already told you to reread the book, at least that fight.

Indeed he never felt anything like this:
"The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor."

But he never compared his own power to Sidious's "like toys". He compared his own last experience to previous his own last experiences with the dark side:
""No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child."

Originally posted by Arhael
a) Ye, very convenient. This excuse gives you power to tell entirely different story assuming that Marek's views are lies, when suits you.

Originally posted by Arhael
b) "The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain."

Me
It was from Marek's point of view

Originally posted by Arhael
Good luck proving that he is toying and denying the resemblance to final contest between Sidious and Yoda.

Originally posted by Arhael
c) God damn it, I already told you to reread the book, at least that fight.

Intrepid, in the novel Marek put his force defenses down in the last moment against Sidious.

There's nothing in the game that makes that part non-canon.

??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Intrepid, in the novel Marek put his force defenses down in the last moment against Sidious.

There's nothing in the game that makes that part non-canon.

Sidious presumably puts up a shield, because the explosion kills Starkiller and leaves the Emperor unscathed.

I don't have the novel on me, but it was specifically noted that Starkiller put his defenses down before the explosion. So that has to be factored into him dying while Sidious was still standing.

Nah it shouldn't. He sacrificed himself, yes, but had more power than ever before yet got destroyed.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uhh Dooku force choked and electrocuted him in Crisis on Naboo. He could have ended it there.

No, Anakin pummels Dooku and Force chokes him to Sidious' delight, Dooku gets upset and Force lightnings him and runs away.

Afterward (IIRC) Anakin gets up and pursues Dooku and Palpatine.

Nah. Dooku has shown the ability to rag doll Anakin.

Even in AoTC, as a Padawan, Anakin puts up a better fight than Obi-wan, effectively winding Dooku.

All through TCW Dooku never gets the upper-hand. After their last encounter in TCW - I'd say by the Brothers and Arms comic story arc - Anakin's powers had doubled.

The Invisible is not a good demonstration of Anakin and Obi-wan's full abilities when they are Force handled at a critical moment - because Obi-wan was separated and got back to Dooku through two Super Battle droids, by the time he was up there Dooku seized an opportunity.

Afterward, Anakin gets the upper-hand rather easily - quicker than Yoda in AoTC.

Yoda is still quite a bit more powerful than Dooku and Anakin by this point, seeing as how an amped Dooku on Vjun was forced to retreat from the Jedi Master yet again - Yoda usually won the sparring matches with both Jedi Dooku and Mace Windu - but beyond sabers was Yoda's Force power level, demonstrated to marginally exceed Dooku's in AoTC.

But Anakin was getting damn near close by ROTS, despite not having access to higher Jedi teaching, they exclusively restricted Anakin access or the title of Master because of his power level - which I think Obsession shows off when he Force waves Durge.

Then as Vader throughout the post-PT novels and games, he fully masters a lot of techniques, and puts the power level to good use - charging lightsaber crystals to blind opponents, using strong Force shields, Force gripping fricken TIE Fighters, nestling his saber in TK and using Force repulse (he taught Starkiller all those crazy Force techniques btw), he's demonstrably above Stakiller in Force power level and damn near Yoda and the Emperor. Starkiller winded him in TFU, and in TFU II he fared much better by designing Starkiller II's lightsaber form to have weaknesses only he knew about - so I'd say even Starkiller II was the lesser in power level, as was RoTJ Luke.

There's a reason the Emperor kept Anakin alive and kept Vader around long after he'd lost the will to grow in power level. There's also a reason why the Emperor designed the suit with an outside respirator susceptible to Force lightning and such, he was afraid of his apprentice's power, and rightfully so.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't have the novel on me, but it was specifically noted that Starkiller put his defenses down before the explosion. So that has to be factored into him dying while Sidious was still standing.

But it does note he's no match for the Emperor's power.

Why are we arguing about Starkiller, btw?