bluewaterrider, you should try reading instead of looking for random words taken out of context. But maybe the above is just over your head. I recommend you read from this web site. It might be easier for you to understand.
bluewaterrider, you should try reading instead of looking for random words taken out of context. But maybe the above is just over your head. I recommend you read from this web site. It might be easier for you to understand.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That IS probably the most challenging premise of Christianity or Islam, isn't it?I've got to admit, one reason I've been attracted to the teachings of Seventh Day Adventists
(I am not a Seventh Day Adventist but I have found their teachings intriguing),
is because they teach of a literal hell, but one with an ending, not one that goes on for eternity.They point to passages in the Bible where the English word or words "forever" and/or "for ever" actually meant a very limited space in time,
sometimes a few years, sometimes a few season, sometimes as short as a few days.Such an interpretation fits in well with other passages that allude to some receiving few stripes, and some receiving many stripes, IIRC.
Is it right?
I don't know.
Are Adventists right?
I don't know.I'm still searching.
Out of all the religions I've found, though, theirs seems to have the best real-world "wake", at least the groups I've been exposed to thus far.
Meaning that, following the adoption of Adventist principles, you can actually see the health of a community increase, charities become supported, people get educated, depression rates go down, families prosper.
For all that?
I've heard Adventism called the greatest counterfeit to true Christianity that the world has ever known.If that [b]is
the unfortunate case, if Adventism is ultimately only a shadow of the real thing, well,
I'm thinking true Christianity is something one might really, truly enjoy being a part of ... [/B]
I don't understand also the idea that Christianity - any form of it - should be considered closer to the 'truth' than the multitude of religions which came before and after, since they all have about the same legitimacy. It is because of cultural tradition and familial obligation that Abrahamic religions are perpetuated in the West; not because they are inherently superior to other forms of religion.
This is why the majority of people in Asia are some form of Buddhist and not Christian/Muslim/Wiccan, etc. Adventism may have an appealing or novel 'spin' on existing belief system, but why bother? All of it is academic, and the appeal of religion in culture is mainly for historical context and reference, in the same way Greek and Norse mythology helps shape and enrich histories of these regions and peoples.
Challenging so-called truths is a cherished attribute of a healthy mind, assuming that the challenging is being done with the appropriate steps. Following where the evidence leads you, recognizing and isolating bias as much as is possible, and admitting the limits of human understanding. Trying to find a version of an existing religion which best fits your bias is just being intellectually lazy.
😬
Shaky, your ellipsed summary of what Stealth Moose said, presumably an attempt to parody me ... is nearly exactly what Stealth Moose just said.
He doesn't understand Christianity.
He doesn't understand why all religions aren't regarded as equal.
He doesn't know if right or wrong is something absolute or relative.
And he doesn't have any objective litmus test for determining what is good or what is evil.
What exactly do you think he's said different from what your supposed parody of me has him saying?
Back to your S.I.G. group, though.
I didn't visit the website directly yet.
I instead typed in "What is S.I.G.?"
Gave me the wikipedia page for "Soka Gakkai", whereupon, inevitably,
I was struck by the following:
" ... Further expansion of the movement was led by its third president Daisaku Ikeda, who planted the seed for the organization's international expansion in 1960. While Ikeda has been remarkably successful in moving the group towards mainstream acceptance in some areas, the organization is still widely viewed with suspicion in Japan and grapples with a reputation of being a "brainwashing cult", as well as a cult of personality centered around Ikeda ... "
Does this in any wise give you pause?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😬Shaky, your ellipsed summary of what Stealth Moose said, presumably an attempt to parody me ... is nearly exactly what Stealth Moose just said.
He [b]doesn't
understand Christianity.[/b]
Actually, I have a pretty deep understanding of Christianity and its history. To be more precise, I don't understand how people who study it can claim to reconcile the blatant contradictions, inconsistencies, and appeals to tradition. It's like asking why all those people in the caves think the shadows on the wall are reality.
He [b]doesn't understand why all religions aren't regarded as equal.[/b]
Oh, in a sense I know why. I indicated as much when I said that tradition and culture and family places a huge emphasis on what religions your group of people most fervently adhere to, in the majority of cases. Christianity doesn't have any explicitly superior evidence in its favor, something you didn't seek to contradict because you know it's true.
They're all faith-based institutions, with a foundation of "it is true because I believe it is true, not because I can prove it".
He [b]doesn't know if right or wrong is something absolute or relative.[/b]
Morality is a relative concept. Relative to individuals, to societies, to humanity, etc. The idea that objective morality exists remains to be proven, unless you found it written in the dirt somewhere and want to show the group.
And he [b]doesn't have any objective litmus test for determining what is good or what is evil.[/b]
See above.
What exactly do you think he's said [b]different from what your supposed parody of me has him saying?[/b]
Lol. The extent to which you misread me and injected your own flawed meaning was pretty spot-on, even if his predictions of exact words were off.
Originally posted by Stealth MooseChallenging so-called truths is a cherished attribute of a healthy mind, assuming that the challenging is being done with the appropriate steps.
Following where the evidence leads you, recognizing and isolating bias as much as is possible ...
Moose, if all that is so, if you truly believe that and feel compelled to act upon this and tell people about it,
how come you seem to have failed to confront Shakyamunison on his faith, despite the amount of interaction you have with him here online?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison... if you think the Law is outside yourself, you are embracing not the Mystic Law but some inferior teaching.
"Inferior teachings" means those other than this sutra,
which are all provisional and transient ...... you must summon up deep conviction that
Myoho-renge-kyo is your life itself ...... You must never seek any of Shakyamuni's teachings or the Buddhas and bodhisattvas of the universe outside yourself ...
... If you seek enlightenment outside yourself, any discipline or good deed will be meaningless ...
... Arouse deep faith and polish your mirror night and day.
How should you polish it?
Only by chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.... Never doubt in the slightest, but keep your faith and attain enlightenment in this lifetime.
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo ...Respectfully,
Nichiren
Originally posted by bluewaterriderShaky, your ellipsed summary of what Stealth Moose said, presumably an attempt to parody me ... is nearly exactly what Stealth Moose just said.
No, that is not what he was saying.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
He [b]doesn't understand Christianity.
He doesn't understand why all religions aren't regarded as equal.
He doesn't know if right or wrong is something absolute or relative.
And he doesn't have any objective litmus test for determining what is good or what is evil.What exactly do you think he's said different from what your supposed parody of me has him saying? [/B]
If someone said to you the Earth is flat (assuming you believe the earth to be a sphere), you might look at them and say "I don't understand how you could say the Earth is flat". Is that because you don't understand how the Earth could be flat, or you don't understand how someone could be so stupid as to believe that Earth is flat?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Back to your S.I.G. group, though.
I didn't visit the website directly yet.
I instead typed in "What is S.I.G.?"
Gave me the wikipedia page for "Soka Gakkai", whereupon, inevitably,
I was struck by the following:, as well as a cult of personality centered around Ikeda ... "
" ... Further expansion of the movement was led by its third president Daisaku Ikeda, who planted the seed for the organization's international expansion in 1960. While Ikeda has been remarkably successful in moving the group towards mainstream acceptance in some areas, the organization is still widely viewed with suspicion in Japan and grapples with a reputation of being [b]a "brainwashing cult"Does this in any wise give you pause? [/B]
Some people believe that Christianity is a brainwashing cult, does that give you pause? Why not?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Moose, if all that is so, if you truly believe that and feel compelled to act upon this and tell people about it,
how come you seem to have failed to confront Shakyamunison on his faith, despite the amount of interaction you have with him here online?
This is a good question. What is different about my religion?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
This is a good question. What is different about my religion?
You don't make 15+ threads and argue against science just to prove your faith to people who don't care in the first place.
I thought that was obvious, BWR. You act as if eninn and JIA were saints that I attacked for having heretical thoughts instead of spamming self-interested bigots who follow Bronze Age religions as if they are somehow still relevant.
Originally posted by ShakyamunisonSome people believe that Christianity is a brainwashing cult, does that give you pause? Why not?
In the case of a group like the Seventh Day Adventists, that DOES give me pause.
I want to know why people say that and if there is a solid basis for them claiming so.
In the case of Adventists, for instance, most of it seems to be based on the fact that some of their leaders had failed predictions
for what would happen in the world a hundred years or so ago.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In the case of a group like the Seventh Day Adventists, that DOES give me pause.I want to know why people say that and if there is a solid basis for them claiming so.
In the case of Adventists, for instance, most of it seems to be based on the fact that some of their leaders had failed predictions
for what would happen in the world a hundred years or so ago.
Christians are threatened by other religions and spread lies and condemnation in an attempt to discredit them. My religion is just one of many other religions that are regularly slandered by Christianity.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Maybe use that pause to address the posts I've given you? Or are you going to bury them like a cat buries poop and move on?
He will not address any of your important points. He will find something, somewhere, that he can distort. Why do you think he world change now?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose[Shakyamunison doesn't] make 15+ threads and argue against science just to prove [his] faith to people who don't care in the first place.
I thought that was obvious, BWR. You act as if eninn and JIA were saints that I attacked for having heretical thoughts instead of spamming self-interested bigots who follow Bronze Age religions as if they are somehow still relevant.
You call JIA (JesusIsAlive) a "self-interested bigot" in the same post where you admit your biggest problem was that he was trying to reach out to others by making 15+ threads?
You deride him and eninn for thinking Christianity and Islam are relevant?
When is the last time you attacked a NON-Abrahamic religion like Buddhism on the philosophical grounds of it being illogical or anti-scientific?
Are they so "relevant" they escape your notice?
Your defense of Shakyamunison is that he limits himself to one thread?
Have you considered that he attacks other religions in nearly all others?
Have you noticed that nearly half of the most recent responses trying to refute Christianity threads on the front page of this forum are his?
Have you stopped to consider that he makes the brand of Buddhism he wants to promote nearly immune to attack and protected by mods by essentially making it a "respect" thread to the Nichiren Buddhist movement?
Who has taken him to task even to the small extent I have, demanding that he answer how his religion is not the adult equivalent of sticking his hands in his ears and chanting
"La la la ... I can't hear you ... "?
Replace "La la la, I can't hear you" with the phrase
"Nam-myoho-renge-kyo".
What exactly, in real world practical terms is objectively DIFFERENT about that chant, versus a child trying to drown out the voice of other adults?
Originally posted by bluewaterriderNo, I'm sorry, I just can't get over a theist decrying a "chant" and equating it negatively with a child's tantrum. If irony were made of strawberries, we'd all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now.
Predictable response Lucien.Surprise me and give me a direct answer.
What is objectively DIFFERENT between a Nichiren Buddhist chanting his Lotus Sutra and a child chanting "La La La" ?