What comes next

Originally posted by Supra

If you did not..God will judge you on judgement day and you will be judged by Justice Iteself on what your fate will be for all eternity..its really that simple.

So in the grand scheme of things, our mortal lives is but a speck in time....20 years to us may be but a second's passing to God.

And yet our fate will be judged & we will pay for all eternity???

Is it really that simple or are you really that gullible?

More accurate to say he's that simple.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Is the soul made of energy though?

A form of it I would think.

We are in the end, energy. Energy that needs to be returned to the eventual but can be built differently from our actions or lack of actions. Thats what makes sense to me at the Moment anyway.

Originally posted by Digi
It's described differently. A close inspection of most Biblical sects, and Bibles themselves for that matter, will reveal a God that ISN'T entirely about love. The "God is Love" movement is a fairly recent invention, historically.

In other interpretations, it's not God that judges you but you yourself that decides to be exiled due to being unworthy. Others will tell you that all or most end up in Heaven, but that sin is still an abomination.

The Lake of Fire is also Dante, if memory serves. What Hell actually is like is a bit ambiguous, scripturally speaking.

And the polished shit thing is attributable to free will. If God created us perfect and infallible, it would be tantamount to creating a bunch of wind up dolls. By giving us free will, evil is introduced, but it's still preferable and allows us to [b]choose good instead of being good by default. Never mind that Christian free will is incompatible with a causal universe, but that's the justification usually. [/B]

Well he can't be strictly speaking by scripture. He Himself contradicts that .

I'd like to know how they come To the conclusion that most end up in heaven, though I do like To hear that, the bible does hammer home the point that in order To be saved, It can only be though faith. Something a large amount of humans don't get the chance to experience.

There is a lake of fire in Dantes hell if memory serves, but this one I recall from scripture. I'll have To Look it up again To be sure though.

Yes, I can agree that it'd be pointless for us to be Perfect without haVing the choice To do so, that makes sense to me. Unfortunately, and I mean it when I say it, the bible feels essentially set up for humans to fail than as a guide for life.

Originally posted by Damborgson
A form of it I would think.

We are in the end, energy. Energy that needs to be returned to the eventual but can be built differently from our actions or lack of actions. Thats what makes sense to me at the Moment anyway.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Energy and matter are one and the same, and neither can be destroyed... but the problem is concluding that the soul is made of energy. Or at least that it's the same energy we know of. The incorporeal/intangible nature of the soul makes it impossible to understand any attributes of it. Even if it exists, it may consist of something far more mysterious and exotic than the hum-drum energy we all speak of. And that material may not be something that gets recycled.

I don't believe in a soul. I do believe in patterns. They exist everywhere in nature. I am the result of a pattern of DNA. Everywhere that pattern exists, there I am.

That leads to one small problem; sense my DNA is almost exactly the same as yours, then you and I are the same person. How can I be you and me at the same time, and be different? I think twins are the answer to that question, but more I do not know.

However, the up side is that if I am really you and you are really me, then we should treat each other better.

Wait, aren't you a Buddhist? Don't you believe in reincarnated souls?

We share 50% of our DNA with bananas, but I'm not gonna go so far as to say I'm half banana. The .1% difference in DNA is enough to differentiate every single one of the approx. 108 billion humans who have ever lived. Combine that with an impossible-to-imagine, innumerable amount of seemingly insignificant environmental factors accumulated over a lifetime, every minute of every hour etc. etc., and you've got a damn good recipe for a massive host of individual personalities and minds.

I don't think souls are actually a thing (or spirit, or "life force/essence" w/e), but minds are. And they're ultimately composed of tangible, corporeal things that shift and change shape constantly. Death will be the last thing a mind experiences before its constituent materials change form, and the personality is destroyed.

Originally posted by Damborgson
A form of it I would think.

We are in the end, energy. Energy that needs to be returned to the eventual but can be built differently from our actions or lack of actions. Thats what makes sense to me at the Moment anyway.

This would require some form of justification to be plausible, imo. What is your reasoning for believing there's a soul? And, further, that it's a type of energy?

Originally posted by Damborgson
Well he can't be strictly speaking by scripture. He Himself contradicts that .

Who's he? The earlier poster? If so, agreed. It doesn't sound like his position accounts for much nuance, though.

Originally posted by Damborgson
I'd like to know how they come To the conclusion that most end up in heaven, though I do like To hear that, the bible does hammer home the point that in order To be saved, It can only be though faith. Something a large amount of humans don't get the chance to experience.

There are caveats in most religions for those who aren't exposed to their beliefs. Are they damning African tribes for being insulated? Or ancient people for not knowing about Jesus? Of course not. These aren't new considerations, not have they been left untreated by those in religious power.

Originally posted by Damborgson
There is a lake of fire in Dantes hell if memory serves, but this one I recall from scripture. I'll have To Look it up again To be sure though.

The Bible is noticeably lacking in concrete descriptions of Hell. I'd be interested to read it if you find such a passage.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Yes, I can agree that it'd be pointless for us to be Perfect without haVing the choice To do so, that makes sense to me. Unfortunately, and I mean it when I say it, the bible feels essentially set up for humans to fail than as a guide for life.

Well, it was created BY humans, in an archaic and scientifically illiterate culture. That alone should speak volumes.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wait, aren't you a Buddhist? Don't you believe in reincarnated souls?

We share 50% of our DNA with bananas, but I'm not gonna go so far as to say I'm half banana. The .1% difference in DNA is enough to differentiate every single one of the approx. 108 billion humans who have ever lived. Combine that with an impossible-to-imagine, innumerable amount of seemingly insignificant environmental factors accumulated over a lifetime, every minute of every hour etc. etc., and you've got a damn good recipe for a massive host of individual personalities and minds.

I don't think souls are actually a thing (or spirit, or "life force/essence" w/e), but minds are. And they're ultimately composed of tangible, corporeal things that shift and change shape constantly. Death will be the last thing a mind experiences before its constituent materials change form, and the personality is destroyed.

Yes, I am a Buddhist, and no, reincarnation is not a part of Nichiren Buddhism. Sure people can believe what every they wish about what happens after you are dead, but in my religion, when we talk about death, we talk about how to cope with the death of a loved one. We only talk about life, and a better way to live.

That aside. You are related to a bananas, albeit distantly. All life on Earth is related. I am part of the life on this planet, and so are you.

Yes, related. But not the same. And certainly not the same person.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes, I am a Buddhist, and no, reincarnation is not a part of Nichiren Buddhism. Sure people can believe what every they wish about what happens after you are dead, but in my religion, when we talk about death, we talk about how to cope with the death of a loved one. We only talk about life, and a better way to live.

That aside. You are related to a bananas, albeit distantly. All life on Earth is related. I am part of the life on this planet, and so are you.

Technically, that may not be the case with ALL life, in an evolutionary sense. But I don't know enough to say for sure. It's probably possible, though, that two or three different pools of primordial muck gave rise to life, not just one. If you're speaking in a general "we're all children of Earth" way, though, then sure.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yes, related. But not the same. And certainly not the same person.

How do you know?

Twins are not the same person, but they seem to have a connection that science has not been able to fully understand. What I am saying is that the real "I" is that connection. The body is just an animal that is born, lives for a time and dies. The connection lives on. That is as close to a soul as I can get, in my personal way of believing.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How do you know?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Because no evidence has ever been discovered that show us to be. Our thoughts, musings, and posturings on the soul, mind etc., aren't enough to conclude that the personalities within every human are essentially the same. Individuality is axiomatic. The opposite is not. It would be an extraordinary claim, and I've not seen nor heard of even a shred of mundane proof, never mind the necessary extraordinary kind. Whatever incorporeal connection we may hope there to be still requires demonstration. And there's a sharp difference between people who are alike in mind, and minds that are one-in-the-same.

Then you are not looking. The reason psychology works is because humans are basically the same. Could you imagine a world were every human was uniquely different? Evolution would never work. We all started off as a single celled organism that evolved over time.

We are the same and different at the same time. You and I are the flowers on the tree, not the tree.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then you are not looking. The reason psychology works is because humans are basically the same. Could you imagine a world were every human was uniquely different? Evolution would never work. We all started off as a single celled organism that evolved over time.

We are the same and different at the same time. You and I are the flowers on the tree, not the tree.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
All of that is why we're similar. Why we're related. But not, as you said earlier, why we're "the same person". My DNA is almost identical to yours. Even if it was identical--even if we were clones, the mind that inhabits the body is different. Even the body itself is different--it's two separate bundles of matter. Even if the mind is similar, nearly indistinguishable, it's still separate. You're making "similarity" synonymous with "sameness". It's not.

You seem to be repeating what I said already? Why is that? Maybe you didn't understand me. I'm sure it is my fault.

I am NOT saying that "similarity" is synonymous with "sameness". I am saying that there is a connection that makes us part of the same entity. In other words, we are all human; we are all Earthlings; we are all life.

This is as close to a soul as I can get. That is why I do not believe in a soul. However, if you say "dead is dead, then I must point out the big picture. You are not the center of anything, not even your own life.

Originally posted by Digi
This would require some form of justification to be plausible, imo. What is your reasoning for believing there's a soul? And, further, that it's a type of energy?

Who's he? The earlier poster? If so, agreed. It doesn't sound like his position accounts for much nuance, though.

There are caveats in most religions for those who aren't exposed to their beliefs. Are they damning African tribes for being insulated? Or ancient people for not knowing about Jesus? Of course not. These aren't new considerations, not have they been left untreated by those in religious power.

The Bible is noticeably lacking in concrete descriptions of Hell. I'd be interested to read it if you find such a passage.

Well, it was created BY humans, in an archaic and scientifically illiterate culture. That alone should speak volumes.

Because it's what makes existence, meaningful.

It's far too shallow thinking imo to believe that a rough several decades of life is all their is to existence. That at the end of the day, nothing really matters, all forms behavior will be rewarded with the same end, absolute nothingness. From the noblest child to the most perverse criminal.

Lines of thinking like Karma and that jazz, make sense in that they believe that your actions affect the energy that is yourself.

I use the word "energy" freely, but as Lucien stated, it could be some other ethereal source of who knows what that makes up the soul.

Well yeah, of course not. I'm hardly egotistical enough to think that any conclusion I've made about biblical scripture hasn't been investigated by older and wiser men than me. That's not what I was getting at. But if you have and source that indicates that humans, who according to scripture are sinful or bound to commit sin, and are not exposed to the one way they can be saved, from the one, true, God as is described in the bible, are somehow still saved, I'm all ears.

I found several actually:

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:14-15 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

Yes, but those humans were guided when they wrote the book. Guided by the Holy Spirit, and scripture is recognized by God himself as something that should never be tampered with unless you have the most foul of sins committed.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Because it's what makes existence, meaningful.

No, it's one way existence can be meaningful. Just because you can't perceive meaning outside of this doesn't mean that others can't.

This also isn't evidence or logic/reason to believe in the existence of a soul. That you can't perceive meaning outside of a soul's existence means nothing. It's hope; blind faith. It's an emotional, perhaps psychological reason to believe, but not an empirical or rational reason.

Originally posted by Damborgson
It's far too shallow thinking imo to believe that a rough several decades of life is all their is to existence. That at the end of the day, nothing really matters, all forms behavior will be rewarded with the same end, absolute nothingness. From the noblest child to the most perverse criminal.

The potential meaninglessness of life is not contingent upon an afterlife. Again, this is a narrow view of existence in which only one form of "meaning" is accepted.

But what you're talking about is again hope. Hope that there is more. But it's not a reason to believe that there is more.

It surprises some when I tell them I hope there's an afterlife too. I hope I'm wrong. Of course, it could be one of an infinite number of terrible afterlives as well, but I'd take my chances. But I also hope I become rich tomorrow. That alone isn't sufficient to justify a belief that I'll become rich tomorrow. I hope Mjolnir falls to Earth in my yard and I become the Asgardian protector of Earth. But - the fact that I'm probably not Worthy aside - I think we can agree it's not going to happen. But that's the same hope in the unjustified divine; it's just less socially accepted.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Lines of thinking like Karma and that jazz, make sense in that they believe that your actions affect the energy that is yourself.

"Affect the energy" is meaningless to me. How does an action affect a karmic energy? What is karma in the first place? Not in a textbook sense, but can you actually point to is existence in the world?

Basically, what I'm getting at is, how does the universe operate in a way that cannot simply be described by deterministic physics. My contention is that this alone is sufficient to describe our actions.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Well yeah, of course not. I'm hardly egotistical enough to think that any conclusion I've made about biblical scripture hasn't been investigated by older and wiser men than me. That's not what I was getting at. But if you have and source that indicates that humans, who according to scripture are sinful or bound to commit sin, and are not exposed to the one way they can be saved, from the one, true, God as is described in the bible, are somehow still saved, I'm all ears.

In Scripture, probably not. But talk to a priest, ask him where the souls of insulated African tribes are headed. Or even well-meaning individuals who are exposed to Christ but don't accept Him. Chances are, his answer will be "Heaven."

Originally posted by Damborgson
I found several actually:

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:14-15 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

👆 Nice finds.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Yes, but those humans were guided when they wrote the book.

How could we possibly know that?

Originally posted by Damborgson
Guided by the Holy Spirit, and scripture is recognized by God himself as something that should never be tampered with

"Recognized by God himself..." seems like a problematic train of thought to me. How is it recognized? Through the Bible? It's circular reasoning.

"Why is the Bible divinely inspired?"
"Because the Bible says so."

Am I not grasping your meaning here?

________________

As it comes down to with many religious topics, it's the difference between possible and plausible. Lots of ideas - including religious ones - are possible. And from a subjective experience, which is all we have, we can't deny any possibility in an absolute sense. But "plausible" is a much tougher sell, one that nearly any justification for a soul falls short of imo.

Nice chatting though Damborg. I don't see you 'round this forum too often. Hope I'm not coming on too strong. 😉

Originally posted by Digi

In Scripture, probably not. But talk to a priest, ask him where the souls of insulated African tribes are headed. Or even well-meaning individuals who are exposed to Christ but don't accept Him. Chances are, his answer will be "Heaven."

[/B]

I put that same question to my step-father once.
And in true Born Again Christian mode, he said, "Don't worry about them."

That's what Jesus said

Jesus: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Some Dude: "What about kids in Africa"
Jesus: "**** 'em"