What comes next

Originally posted by Greatest I am
We can claim knowledge. We just also have to admit that we have no proof for others. That is a part of the nature of apotheosis.

S M

I never push people to believe in my apotheosis and only offer it as an anecdotal rendering.

If they have a spiritual itch pushing them, they will not need my poor words to eventually get their reward. Or curse depending on my day.

Regards
DL

I'm skeptical, which goes without saying. Any time someone is absolutely certain of something, I am usually skeptical.

1. Define 'apotheosis' for us, in the context you're using it. I'm not sure I can agree to this term having validity without it being defined properly first.

2. Knowledge requires both belief that X is X and logical proof that such is the case. You must be able to justify it using reason, and furthermore it should be true by virtue of the reasoning, not just potentially true. The idea that perhaps there are buried microbes in Antarctica isn't true until microbes are actually verified to be in Antarctica.

I find it extremely troubling that someone would take an epiphany leading to Gnosticism as valid while being unable to render the reasoning that lead to such event to others. The general rule of thumb is if you can't describe something concisely, you may not actually understand it well enough to verify it in any way.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, are the thoughts of other animals included? Like is my cat part of this consciousness?

I don't know. Perhaps since we cannot breed with them here, it is more likely that we cannot meld mentally in the afterlife either.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
In this theory, where do the rest of the other, non-thinking lifeforms come in to play? And are these subatomic particles found throughout the universe--regardless of the presence of consciousness--or are they of a type that's only created when thought and consciousnesses occurs? And if it's the latter, what is the impetus for thought and consciousnesses?

I think all life forms think so I do not accept your tern of non-thinking life forms. Even a nerve cell has an on and off position.

I know nothing of the sub-atomic particles, --- perhaps Noetic Science would be a good source for you, --- but I would think that it is their position and not their composition that carries the thought information. Just like radio waves.

The impetus for thought and consciousness seems to be life.

Regards
dl

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm skeptical, which goes without saying. Any time someone is absolutely certain of something, I am usually skeptical.

1. Define 'apotheosis' for us, in the context you're using it. I'm not sure I can agree to this term having validity without it being defined properly first.

2. Knowledge requires both belief that X is X and logical proof that such is the case. You must be able to justify it using reason, and furthermore it should be true by virtue of the reasoning, not just potentially true. The idea that perhaps there are buried microbes in Antarctica isn't true until microbes are actually verified to be in Antarctica.

I find it extremely troubling that someone would take an epiphany leading to Gnosticism as valid while being unable to render the reasoning that lead to such event to others. The general rule of thumb is if you can't describe something concisely, you may not actually understand it well enough to verify it in any way.

The best analogy to the word apotheosis is in the esoteric rendering of Jacob's ladder. Apotheosis is like finding it and beginning to climb. The stages or levels of God, so to speak, are to be climbed.

Please meet me here to further this.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=589430

Regards
DL

I've already read the other thread. My question still stands. An "esoteric rendering of Jacob's ladder" is clear as mud. I'm asking you to present your definition clearly and concisely. Otherwise, you've not shown the reasoning to support your stance.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I think all life forms think so I do not accept your tern of non-thinking life forms.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I don't know. Perhaps since we cannot breed with them here, it is more likely that we cannot meld mentally in the afterlife either.

Regards
DL

Perhaps? We are animals; we are part of the animal kingdom. Perhaps each animal has its own consciousness?

Moose - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob%27s_Ladder

Explains the "analogy of Jacob's Ladder" through Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. I've used wikipedia for trying to understand the more cloudthought things described here - helps me understand Shaky much better, too!

ETA : I THINK GIA is talking about this part : "In the 3rd century, Origen[5] explains that there are two ladders in the life of a Christian, the ascetic ladder that the soul climbs on the earth, by way of—and resulting in—an increase in virtue, and the soul's travel after death, climbing up the heavens towards the light of God."

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I've already read the other thread. My question still stands. An "esoteric rendering of Jacob's ladder" is clear as mud. I'm asking you to present your definition clearly and concisely. Otherwise, you've not shown the reasoning to support your stance.

Apotheosis is described as becoming God-like of being elevated to God-like status. that is exactly what it is but most think it is an instantaneous event. It is not.

The old Kabbalists, which is where most esoteric thinking comes from, thought that to ascend to being God-like it was a ten step process. Learning these steps was all important to them. Jacob's ladder has those 10 steps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob's_Ladder

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/361883/jewish/The-Ladder.htm

The thing to remember is that these are just concepts to help you know what is going on within your own mind and thinking.

It is all myth until your own apotheosis guides you to a belief.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Proof?

I have no proof to offer but biology has much.

If you want to start a study then the basic nerve, as I said, has rudimentary thinking. I would start there.

BTW, did you have a sample of a non-thinking life form?

That would mean no electrical activity in it al all. Right?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Perhaps? We are animals; we are part of the animal kingdom. Perhaps each animal has its own consciousness?

Yes. Even if we could somehow read the minds of an animal, we might not be able to understand what we are (reading).

Somewhat like SETI and the radio signal they look for. They do not expect to understand the signal but only think they can recognize that it is a signal.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Moose - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob%27s_Ladder

Explains the "analogy of Jacob's Ladder" through Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. I've used wikipedia for trying to understand the more cloudthought things described here - helps me understand Shaky much better, too!

ETA : I THINK GIA is talking about this part : "In the 3rd century, Origen[5] explains that there are two ladders in the life of a Christian, the ascetic ladder that the soul climbs on the earth, by way of—and resulting in—an increase in virtue, and the soul's travel after death, climbing up the heavens towards the light of God."

The concept of Jacob's ladder is way older than Christianity and the Kabbalist ladder or usual form to their blimb toward God is better written.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
BTW, did you have a sample of a non-thinking life form?

That would mean no electrical activity in it al all. Right?

Regarding matter, life and consciousness, I've always liked this analogy...

mass:gravity::complexity: consciousness.

Just as we can not detect the gravitational field of a dust mote, neither can we detect its degree of consciousness. But both are present. And just as we can not feel gravity until we are dealing with significant masses (eg, a planet), neither can we note consciousness until we are dealing with significant complexity (eg, life).

Please note that 'consciousness' is being used here in the broadest sense of the term.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Bio-electrical activity is not the definition of thought. As far as we can empirically observe, only lifeforms with an advanced central nervous system--a brain, specifically human--can think. The grass in your front lawn can't think. The fungus between your floorboards has no thoughts. If you're operating under some sophist definition of "thought-producing lifeform" then there's no point going further.

I guess that our medical systems are wrong then to determine if a man is alive or not by his brain's electrical activity.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Mindship
Regarding matter, life and consciousness, I've always liked this analogy...

mass:gravity::complexity: consciousness.

Just as we can not detect the gravitational field of a dust mote, neither can we detect its degree of consciousness. But both are present. And just as we can not feel gravity until we are dealing with significant masses (eg, a planet), neither can we note consciousness until we are dealing with significant complexity (eg, life).

Please note that 'consciousness' is being used here in the broadest sense of the term.

If consciousness includes electrical activity, then even the emissions of a dust mote, if it emits any, can be detected.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If consciousness includes electrical activity, then even the emissions of a dust mote, if it emits any, can be detected.

Regards
DL

I prefer a holistic-transcendent paradigm, as per the perennial philosophy, where Consciousness is the fundamental reality, not matter. Thus, electrical activity is involved but is hardly the final say, imo.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If consciousness includes electrical activity, then even the emissions of a dust mote, if it emits any, can be detected.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I guess that our medical systems are wrong then to determine if a man is alive or not by his brain's electrical activity.

Regards
DL

No, they're right. Apparently you didn't read my post, since you kinda confirmed it's point: human brains show sign of consciousness through electrical activity. Lifeforms and non-living things (like you mote of dust example) have no brains. So how then would they have consciousness and thought?

Originally posted by Mindship
It would include it, but not be limited to it.

What else do you think comes out?

I prefer a holistic-transcendent paradigm, as per the perennial philosophy, where Consciousness is the fundamental reality, not matter. Thus, electrical activity is involved but is hardly the final say, imo.

Holistics are nice but as far as we know, a complicated consciousness cannot exist without a mind. Single cells can react but that does not quite mean conscious reaction.

We should stay in the real before invoking anything of a spirit world.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So then... electrical activity=consciousness? Essentially anything that interacts with the electromagnetic spectrum is a conscious, thinking thing?

EDIT: I missed this.

No, they're right. Apparently you didn't read my post, since you kinda confirmed it's point: human brains show sign of consciousness through electrical activity. Lifeforms and non-living things (like you mote of dust example) have no brains. So how then would they have consciousness and thought?

We have no idea how much consciousness can be held in a given electrical field and so cannot answer all questions.

We also do not know how much brain is required, if any, for consciousness.

How big is the consciousness your brain creates? You cannot know nor can you know how small it can be before being compromised.

Regards
DL