Ben Kenobi vs Count Dooku

Started by NewGuy0113 pages
Originally posted by NewGuy01

Good... gooooooood.

Don't believe that we'll be getting any sort of concession out of Intrepid.

You never do with personal biases.

I have no idea how this changes anything.

I figured as much.

Mace's description of Vaapad from Jedi vs Sith: The New Essential Guide to The Force was recorded in 22 BBY; Shatterpoint and the events that occured happened in 21,5 BBY, proving that the superconducting loop was well established already.

With that in mind, I ask you once more...

Why did Mace lose to Vastor?

wink1

😑

And I submit to you once more this answer; because he was not privy to giving himself over fully to Vaapad due to his fear of the darkness at that time. Thus, even though he utilized Vaapad, he did not do so to its fullest extent until after the events of Shatterpoint, as mentioned in the RotS passages I posted earlier.

🍺

Right.

But he did. For that matter, Mace later on recorded that he would never have beaten Vastor. Further more, your logic is lacking as well. If Mace was capable of fighting as fast as he did against Sidious, why is it that he never overwhelmed Count Dooku on Boz Pity, which took place in 19,5 BBY? Why is it that he never beat Grievous, who was repeatedly beaten by Dooku, by the virtue of fighting skill and speed, but by exploting the General's lack of mobiliy on the mag-lev train they were fighting on in 19 BBY?

First of all, if I remember correctly, Mace Windu got the better of Dooku in that duel, forcing Dooku to have his MagnaGuards interfere.

Second, Mace Windu, if using the supercondicting loop theory, may not be able to complete said loop with a non-Force sensitive being such as Grievous (just my thoughts however).

Third, there was no evidence that Mace couldn't have overwhelmed Grievous had he chose to continue then lightsaber engagement. He saw an opportunity to end it quickly, and did just that.

To claim that Mace's duel, and subsequent victory over Sidious wouldn't happen again is, again, asinine. Especially in light of George Lucas' comments and other supporting material.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
First of all, if I remember correctly, Mace Windu got the better of Dooku in that duel, forcing Dooku to have his MagnaGuards interfere.

He never got the better of Dooku, and never forced Dooku to call on his Magnaguards or to flee. Dooku was confident of victory and himself said that he would take care of Windu, but quickly reconsiders, hinting that he knew very well that a victory would take more time than he had, given that other Jedi were surrounding the planet after exposing Dooku's location and plans.

Even if he would have overwhelmed Dooku (of which I am unconvinced), this by no means allows him to compete with Sidious, who would trounce Dooku.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Second, Mace Windu, if using the supercondicting loop theory, may not be able to complete said loop with a non-Force sensitive being such as Grievous (just my thoughts however).

Mace still assumed a Vaapad stance against him.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Third, there was no evidence that Mace couldn't have overwhelmed Grievous had he chose to continue then lightsaber engagement. He saw an opportunity to end it quickly, and did just that.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the challenge Grievous presented him. Grievous would never challenge Sidious, especially not with his movement restricted.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
To claim that Mace's duel, and subsequent victory over Sidious wouldn't happen again is, again, asinine. Especially in light of George Lucas' comments and other supporting material.

Not really. Mace fought Vastor with intentions to win, giving his all, and while being submerged deep into Vaapad, yet lost and later admitted he never would have won. The dark side energies radiating in the jungle where they fought were so strong that Mace compared his raw power to Yoda and Anakin, yet by your stance, Vaapad should have allowed him to comfortably beat Vastor considering the immense darkness in Vastor would have, combined with Mace's own inner darkness, amplified his power and speed, but this never happened. Why? Because Vaapad has limits. If not, then he would have beaten Vastor, but that never happened. Mace realizing that the Republic that he so intimately loved had been lost from the beginning ''hollowed Mace to the core'' (The Complete Visual Dictionary, which significantly heightened the darkness within him like never before, which is why he fought so fast.

What a long way to just A>B>C this.

This thread is still going on? Please Intrepid lost pages ago gents. Call it a night, have a couple of beers.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
This thread is still going on?

You're still posting in it. Not surprised.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Please Intrepid lost pages ago gents.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
I got disproved

mmm

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You're still posting in it. Not surprised.

mmm

Lol You're that desperate that you need to misquote me when I am referencing a multi-month old thread.

He never got the better of Dooku, and never forced Dooku to call on his Magnaguards or to flee.

Mace attacks. Dooku defends. Notes that Mace will not kill him today and proceeds to have Magnaguards attack Mace. Dooku flees. Dooku knew his shit was in trouble.

Mace still assumed a Vaapad stance against him.

GG assumed a Vaapad stance as well. Big deal. Mace Windu ended the fight in short order.

In addition, I present this:

YouTube video

Grievous is no threat to Mace Windu.

Mace fought Vastor with intentions to win, giving his all, and while being submerged deep into Vaapad, yet lost and later admitted he never would have won

Already addressed numerous times. Moreover, Mace Windu "admitting" that he could never beat him means little in light of his other humble statements. Again, this is one of his character traits.

BTW - he nearly killed Vastor right after saying this.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Mace attacks. Dooku defends.

Yeah, that definitely shows disparity.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Notes that Mace will not kill him today

I have no idea why it's worth noting.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Dooku knew his shit was in trouble.

No one said otherwise. It would be time consuming, which, as I said, was not ideal for the Count. But had Mace been able to fight as he did against Sidious, which is what you're insinuating, he would have won with utter ease.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Mace Windu ended the fight in short order.

The fact remains that the General presented a challenge to Mace under circumstances that favored Mace.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
In addition, I present this:

YouTube video

Grievous is no threat to Mace Windu.


Of course, Mace using Crush one time overrules their actual fight.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Already addressed numerous times.

With nonsense, yes.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Moreover, Mace Windu "admitting" that he could never beat him means little in light of his other humble statements. Again, this is one of his character traits.

Not really. That he considers Kenobi and Depa Billaba skilled swordsmen does nothing to invalidate his own admission about Vastor's prowess in comparison to his own.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. That he considers Kenobi and Depa Billaba skilled swordsmen does nothing to invalidate his own admission about Vastor's prowess in comparison to his own.

But doesn't Mace also say that Depa's bladework is superior to his own? While this is quite obviously not the case?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lol You're that desperate that you need to misquote me when I am referencing a multi-month old thread.

But this thread is only roughly 10 days old. Unless you were talking about something else.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But doesn't Mace also say that Depa's bladework is superior to his own?

You addressed this yourself:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
While this is quite obviously not the case?

With regards to Mace's inferiority to Vastor, it quite clearly was the case.