Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Where in Matthew 5:48 does Lord Jesus either admit or deny being perfect?Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples, telling them that they shall be perfect even as their Father in Heaven is perfect.
If the disciples--who at the time were sinners--were capable of being perfect (and we know that they were because Lord Jesus told them that they would be as He taught them), then Lord Jesus--who knew no sin, committed no sin, and was without sin--had to be perfect.
Besides, Lord Jesus is the sinless Son of God, so since His Father is perfect, so is He.
This is easy to answer:
1. Jesus never claimed to be perfect like "The Father" in any New Testament scripture.
2. Being without sin is not the same thing as being perfect else newborn babies would be just as perfect as God which would make them omnipotent like God which is hilariously wrong (neither you nor I believe in original sin so we do not have to worry about disagreeing, here).
Originally posted by dadudemon
This is easy to answer:1. Jesus never claimed to be perfect like "The Father" in any New Testament scripture.
2. Being without sin is not the same thing as being perfect else newborn babies would be just as perfect as God which would make them omnipotent like God which is hilariously wrong (neither you nor I believe in original sin so we do not have to worry about disagreeing, here).
1. By the same token Lord Jesus never denied being perfect like His Father in any New Testament Scripture.
2. The English word perfect in Matthew 5:48 was translated from the Greek word teleios which means,
1. brought to its end, finished
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3. perfect
4. that which is perfect
1. consummate human integrity and virtue
2. of men
1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature
I believe that what the Lord Jesus was telling His disciples is that one day they shall be (in the future) full grown, adult, of full age, mature (spiritually) in terms of integrity and virtue just like the Father in Heaven.
So, the word perfect in Matthew 5:48 has nothing to do with power or omnipotence, but spiritual maturity in terms of integrity and virtue.
Original sin?
I believe that all people inherited Adam's sin nature.
That's why we need to born again.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
1. By the same token Lord Jesus [b]never denied being perfect like His Father in any New Testament Scripture.2. The English word perfect in Matthew 5:48 was translated from the Greek word teleios which means,
1. brought to its end, finished
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3. perfect
4. that which is perfect
1. consummate human integrity and virtue
2. of men
1. full grown, adult, of full age, matureI believe that what the Lord Jesus was telling His disciples is that one day they shall be (in the future) full grown, adult, of full age, mature (spiritually) in terms of integrity and virtue just like the Father in Heaven.
So, the word perfect in Matthew 5:48 has nothing to do with power or omnipotence, but spiritual maturity in terms of integrity and virtue.
Original sin?
I believe that all people inherited Adam's sin nature.
That's why we need to born again. [/B]
Basically, you didn't understand my point at all. Had Jesus claimed perfection, he would have said "Be ye therefore perfect even as I am perfect."
Keep in mind, he is the great I Am if we are to believe he is the same being as God (the Trinity concept which is a false-doctrine made up sometime between 200 and 300 AD).
He's clearly not the same being as The Father or else he would just have said be perfect like Me OR be perfect like my Father and Me.
Fact:
He never claimed to be perfect like God in the NT. He claimed multiple times that God was perfect.
As to the rest, that doesn't change anything I have stated nor does it function to directly address what I've stated. You can change the word "perfect" to a made up word such as "danskty" and my point is still the same. Here, I'll do it for you:
"1. Jesus never claimed to be danksty like "The Father" in any New Testament scripture.
2. Being without sin is not the same thing as being danksty else newborn babies would be just as danksty as God which would make them omnipotent like God which is hilariously wrong."
A tacit requirement of being omnipotent is being perfect. You cannot be perfect unless you are omnipotent. This is by all definitions you want to apply to perfect including the old Greek word play game. The reason is in the meaning of omnipotence.
Your fundamental definition for perfection, as you stated earlier, was being without sin. Babies are by definition without sin (original sin does not exist). The word you are looking for is transgression. A sin is not the same thing as transgression.
Sinning requires a knowledge of your actions or thoughts being bad and then doing them anyway. Transgressing eternal laws does not require that knowledge it is only a violation of those eternal laws.
But, since babies are without sin, they are by your first use of perfect, perfect. Therefore, they are omnipotent because then they would be the same as God. It does not matter that you want the word "perfect" to mean "just a mature man" because that's clearly not the way Jesus Christ was using the word. Else he command a literally impossible command?
If you want Jesus to be perfect in the New Testament, you must prove that he claimed to be perfect like God The Father. That burden is on you to do so. Since I know nothing like that exists in the NT, don't waste your time and just admit you were wrong: it will save us time. The burden of proof is not on me to prove that Jesus was not equal to God's perfection. I have already shown that He does not place Himself on the same level. He clearly differentiates himself from God by not claiming equality when it would have been linguistically and logically simpler to do so in His Sermon on the Mount.
Edit - You shouldn't try to play "greek word games" with a Mormon because we are almost 200 years ahead of you when it comes to the Greek word games. I have tons of resources that address this very particular argument and some have been published for over a Century. 😄
Originally posted by siriuswriter
JIA - Your say-so does NOT COUNT as proof.
[list]Argument by assertion is the logical fallacy where someone tries to argue a point by merely asserting that it is true, regardless of contradiction. While this may seem stupid, it's actually an easy trap to fall into and is quite common.
"A lie told often enough becomes the truth" —Lenin
"If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth" —Goebbels[/list]
Originally posted by dadudemon
According to JIA's logic, that baby is clearly equal to God because it is incapable of sin.That's baby Jesus and God the Father, in one being. A perfect being.
I never said a thing about babies not having sin.
Although babies are not held accountable for their sins, the are born with a sin nature.