Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker vs. Darth Maul and Savage Opress

Started by Lord Stark5 pages
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yup. When he got blasted, he had no need to hurry and kill Mace, since his victory was already assured.

His victory clearly wasn't assured considering all the Jedi survived and he was forced into retreat.


This made me laugh. A few minutes? The average duel is not over one minute, let alone the one between Mace and Ventress. [/B]

Considering the next time we see Bulq he's watching Mace leave the planet its not a stretch to say it was a few minutes. Especially when Mace had to first get to Ventress' location.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
His victory clearly wasn't assured

According to himself, it sure was.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
he was forced into retreat.

When?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Considering the next time we see Bulq he's watching Mace leave the planet its not a stretch to say it was a few minutes. Especially when Mace had to first get to Ventress' location.

😆

Don't come here with your double standards.

You, a few days ago
Windu cornered her onto a cliff in seconds.

Mace and Ventress traded, what, five blows? In absolutely no logical way did it last more than 10 seconds.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yup. When he got blasted, he had no need to hurry and kill Mace, since his victory was already assured.

No it wasn't. See if Mace lived and got away he'd expose Bulq as a traitor, thus making him unable to continue as Dooku's mole. Plus Mace would reveal the real culprit thus ruining the entire plan.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This made me laugh. A few minutes? The average duel is not over one minute, let alone the one between Mace and Ventress.

Beg your pardon but this is just sad and petty. What you're doing here is focusing on minor details to try and deflect attention to them while ignoring the focus of what's actually being said. That is frankly, a weaselly attitude and has no place in an honest debate.

But very well:

"Bulq was out of action for a few moments "

Happy now?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
According to himself, it sure was.

And according to Dooku, he (Dooku) had become more powerful than any Jedi, even Yoda.

Should we take everything Bulq says as literal or do we realise that Dark Jedi like to taunt their enemies and taunts should be taken with a grain (more like a bag) of salt?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yup. When he got blasted, he had no need to hurry and kill Mace, since his victory was already assured.

Okay then, how was this "assured victory" achieved?

Mace escaped with the other Jedi, the schism in the Jedi Order this entire plan was supposed to create was averted, Bulq was revealed as a traitor and his cover and credibility were blown to smithereens.

Where is the "assured victory" again?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
When?

When Mace got the other Jedi out of there, leaving the entire plan in tatters and all Bulq could do was go back to Dooku and report his failure.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace and Ventress traded, what, five blows? In absolutely no logical way did it last more than 10 seconds.

Fine, it lasted 10 seconds. That's 10 seconds, plus the time it took for Mace to get there, then for him and the others to fight their way to his ship and lift-off.

The point is this; Bulq was out of action long enough for Mace to get enough of a head start so that Bulq didn't even get there until the Jedi were flying off.

What is so hard to understand here?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Should we take everything Bulq says as literal or do we realise that Dark Jedi like to taunt their enemies and taunts should be taken with a grain (more like a bag) of salt?

This is a ridiculous comparison. Dooku, unlike Bulq (to my knowledge), has a history of taunting his opponents; Dooku, unlike Bulq (to my knowledge), is a master of Dun Möch; and Bulq's ''taunt'' came from something he and Mace felt in the Force, unlike that of the Count, which was alleged and believed factual; and it was agreed with by none less than Bulq's opponent, unlike Dooku's taunt which was proven wrong.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The point is this; Bulq was out of action long enough for Mace to get enough of a head start so that Bulq didn't even get there until the Jedi were flying off.

It was suggested that Mace ''won'' and proved himself ''superior'' to Bulq because he ''KO'd''/rendered Bulq ''unconscious''. This is a false and unsupported premise that was not shown yet passed off as a fact.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is a ridiculous comparison. Dooku, unlike Bulq (to my knowledge), has a history of taunting his opponents; Dooku, unlike Bulq (to my knowledge), is a master of Dun Möch; and Bulq's ''taunt'' came from something he and Mace felt in the Force, unlike that of the Count, which was alleged and believed factual; and it was agreed with by none less than Bulq's opponent, unlike Dooku's taunt which was proven wrong.

Okay then, let's look at the conversation and context. The words may not be 100% but the gist is.

BULQ: Do you feel it in the Force Windu? The young Jedi fall (they sensed the death of Rhad Tarn). No matter which of us wins your mission fails and our victory is assured.

MACE: True Sora Bulq. The real battle is not here.

Bulq is taunting Mace to try and dishearten him by saying that the schism in the Jedi Order is going to happen. One doesn't need to be a "master of Dun Moch" to use basic psychological warfare tactics.

Mace is agreeing with the fact that whichever of them wins their duel is not important because what matters is saving the other Jedi from Ventress and stopping the Jedi Order from splitting into factions. He is basically saying "I don't have time to waste on you. I have more important concerns."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It was suggested that Mace ''won'' and proved himself ''superior'' to Bulq because he ''KO'd''/rendered Bulq ''unconscious''. This is a false and unsupported premise that was not shown yet passed off as a fact.

No it is an accurate premise that is supported and shown.

Firstly Mace "won" in the sense that he achieved his objective. He prevented the schism Bulq was trying to cause and saved all but two of the Jedi (Mira and Rhad Tarn). As a bonus he exposed a traitor, thus preventing him from doing more damage to the Jedi Order from within. Bulq lost in that his mission failed and his cover was blown.

Second, if we only look at literal interpretations, Mace did win and did prove himself superior. As I've said several times, Bulq was out of action for a short time, long enough for Mace to accomplish quite a bit. To recap:

Originally posted by me
Mace was able to get to where the other Jedi were fighting Ventress, drive Ventress off, get the other Jedi to his ship (while fighting through security droids) and lift-off. By the time Bulq arrives on the scene Mace and co are on the ship and flying off to safety.

The fact he had time to do all that before Bulq even arrived at the area means Mace had an opportunity during which he could have killed Bulq but did not as he had a more pressing concern (i.e. saving the other Jedi).

Granted it may be an exaggeration to say Bulq was KO'ed but that's really not important. Whether he was KO'ed or just stunned briefly, the fact remains that Mace could have killed him if he hadn't been needed elsewhere.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Bulq is taunting Mace to try and dishearten him by saying that the schism in the Jedi Order is going to happen. One doesn't need to be a "master of Dun Moch" to use basic psychological warfare tactics.

No, but Bulq specifically says that ''whichever of us prevail, your mission fails- and we win!'', because of what had happened with the other Jedi. Had Mace died it would've been helpful to him; but if not, he'd still have ''won'' on a greater scale.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Firstly Mace "won" in the sense that he achieved his objective.

In that sense, yes. Conceded here.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Second, if we only look at literal interpretations, Mace did win and did prove himself superior. As I've said several times, Bulq was out of action for a short time, long enough for Mace to accomplish quite a bit. To recap:

But he didn't. He blasted Bulq, then ran away. How does that constitute a individual victory over Bulq, much less a case of superiority? Mace BFR'd Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil by exploiting the advantageous environment; not by being more skilled or the superior combatant. Further more, Bulq did the exact same thing to Mace in the middle of the fight, and any advantage, if there was one, was brief. You could argue that Mace was in a position of advantage, just like Bulq was earlier, but how the duel would have concluded is anyones guess. The fact remains that Bulq, and Ventress to an extent, contended very well with Mace, and he never beat either by being more skilled. Could he have? Sure. Is he better than both? Sure. Does it mean they can't challenge him? Not at all.