Beyonder tries to take over DC Universe!!!

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Why does Presence need to play a role? I thought god was the creator of all things? He seems to acknowledge some other creator in that Supergirl: Wings scan.

Nah, the "creator" in Supergirl, is the Presence, here's a scan from an issue of Supergirl (supergirl v4 #49), around the same time, referencing him:

http://i.imgur.com/0CfnCaF.jpg?1

That aside, i could bring up many more "creators" in DC, apart from the Presence. Let me know. Same thing applies to Marvel btw.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Who do you think the other beings who are above the Presence are?

The writers, most likely.

But Mike Carey also said in a letters page of Lucifer #29, that there was a creation much earlier than God's which wasn't created by him (the one which Silk Man comes from):

http://i.imgur.com/fe5rw0n.jpg?1

.........so maybe him or them.....whoever it may be (we don't know who it is).

Originally posted by Jynocidus
LT holds megaversal energies and couldn't stop PRB, I don't see how Presence holding a multiverse is supposed to make him flinch.

After LT struggles with Nebulos and his staff, sure.

And that "megaversal" showing wasn't until 2006 which was confirmed in LT's bio (pertaining his appearance in Adventures of X-Men #12).

Still, i do believe that LT was a multiversal power back then (probably Lucifer level) but not as powerful as he became later.

I dont keep up with Supergirl, but whoever she was talking too looks more like a supreme entity that i'd accept than The Presence. Some chubby grey haired demon named Yahweh...lol

hulk wins

Originally posted by Jynocidus
I dont keep up with Supergirl, but whoever she was talking too looks more like a supreme entity that i'd accept than The Presence. Some chubby grey haired demon named Yahweh...lol

That wasn't the Supreme deity who was shown on panel, in the 1st place.

Originally posted by dynamix
Don't know why people dislike these Supreme entity debates, i think they are interesting as hell, lol. I do have a question for Mr. Master and Op616 - the term "Creation", in the scan with the Presence, posted earlier, do u guys think it refers to just Vertigo, Vertigo+DC, or does it includes everything in term of all ideas, concepts and history within THAT comic storied development? In other words, does it encompass EVERYTHING - Overmonitor and his realm included?

It was just Yahweh's multiverse (in Vertigo only). Because we later see Elaine and the others merge this creation of Yahweh's with Lucifer's multiverse and Elaine's (universe). And in this merged creation, Elaine became "God", which was completely ignored in mainstream DC.

Overmonitor is dissociated from the Presence, that was just Morrison bringing up a new creation story with a new supreme being (funny thing though, is that Morrison was the one who created the term "The Presence" as well, back in the 90s, in JLA) for the sake of a singular story arc. Which isn't exactly something new.

-------

Here's 2 other creation stories for the sake of a story arc. In Warlord v1 #132, we see Anu/Una (unheard of before) create the universe on panel:

http://i.imgur.com/UXKnmow.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nASd89F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xIpmYkT.jpg

In Dr Fate v2 #3, we see a multiversal creation story on panel:

http://i.imgur.com/tEHZ0dX.jpg

There are more examples even.

Originally posted by dynamix
Don't know why people dislike these Supreme entity debates, i think they are interesting as hell, lol. I do have a question for Mr. Master and Op616 - the term "Creation", in the scan with the Presence, posted earlier, do u guys think it refers to just Vertigo, Vertigo+DC, or does it includes everything in term of all ideas, concepts and history within THAT comic storied development? In other words, does it encompass EVERYTHING - Overmonitor and his realm included?

*edit ... damn, the kid is already there. Well then, there ya go. 🙂

^^lol, s'all good, brutha.

Thanks, Op616, very interesting stuff - totally suprised they had a creation story utilizing the Brahma's sleep cycle, lol! cool sh!t.

Nobody in DC or Marvel can create. In one of those "creation stories" the worm thing twisted and turned "for all eternity" which is a subordinate of the LT. I'm not trying to be bias when I don't accept DC characters as supreme, it's just every time I try and give them a chance they fail to impress me.

Writers aren't even creators. They're manipulators. They produce comics with thoughts, paper, and ink. All of which already exist. Real creation is a mystery.

Originally posted by operator616

After LT struggles with Nebulos and his staff, sure.

Also, we should keep in mind this was 1967, nearly 20 years before Beyonder appeared.

Originally posted by operator616

And that "megaversal" showing wasn't until 2006 which was confirmed in LT's bio (pertaining his appearance in Adventures of X-Men #12).

As you know, the issue was approved by Carlin who had his name printed.
The Spectre being involved.
And as we discussed in that other thread the look of the Brothers in AotXMen.
This .. as you know, was the original plot, and was never changed on panel,
it was changed ... as you mentioned, in the LT's 2006 bio.

Thoughts friend?

Originally posted by operator616

Still, i do believe that LT was a multiversal power back then (probably Lucifer level) but not as powerful as he became later.

LT surveys all Marvel, whatever that is at the time it is what it is. Imo.

Originally posted by operator616
That wasn't the Supreme deity who was shown on panel, in the 1st place.

It was just Yahweh's multiverse (in Vertigo only). Because we later see Elaine and the others merge this creation of Yahweh's with Lucifer's multiverse and Elaine's (universe). And in this merged creation, Elaine became "God", which was completely ignored in mainstream DC.

Overmonitor is dissociated from the Presence, that was just Morrison bringing up a new creation story with a new supreme being (funny thing though, is that Morrison was the one who created the term "The Presence" as well, back in the 90s, in JLA) for the sake of a singular story arc. Which isn't exactly something new.

-------

Here's 2 other creation stories for the sake of a story arc. In Warlord v1 #132, we see Anu/Una (unheard of before) create the universe on panel:

http://i.imgur.com/UXKnmow.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nASd89F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xIpmYkT.jpg

In Dr Fate v2 #3, we see a multiversal creation story on panel:

http://i.imgur.com/tEHZ0dX.jpg

There are more examples even.

Good stuff. 👆

Who is Silk Man?

Originally posted by dynamix
totally suprised they had a creation story utilizing the Brahma's sleep cycle, lol! cool sh!t.

Yeah, though the "trimurti" (Brahma included) aren't responsible for everything in DC, that was just in one story. Though they are significant. We see Cronus in a Wonder Woman story collecting their power to achieve the full power of the Godwave, an in turn, the power of the Presence himself. He actually manages to achieve that but only for a moment before he's overwhelmed by the power.

Originally posted by Mr Master
What makes Nebulos such a weak character, just curious?

Also, we should keep in mind this was 1967, nearly 20 years before Beyonder appeared.

Because Nebulos didn't display anything impressive on panel (though his staff contained those powerful evils but meh.....still not impressed). And the fact that their battle constituted of throwing some rocks around or something akin to that.

Yeah, and LT never did anything siginificant before SW 2, apart from that what if (even then, he wasn't that impressive).

Originally posted by Mr Master

Yea but if you think about it opr, prior to that it was the original Brothers from DC vs Marvel.

As you know, the issue was approved by Carlin who had his name printed.
The Spectre being involved.
And as we discussed in that other thread the look of the Brothers in AotXMen.
This .. as you know, was the original plot, and was never changed on panel,
it was changed ... as you mentioned, in the LT's 2006 bio.

Thoughts friend?

The main point is that, the megaversal showing was after SW 2 happened (however you see it, be it in 1997 or 2006)

Originally posted by Mr Master

Imo, the LT has never been "upgraded" in status or power.

LT surveys all Marvel, whatever that is at the time it is what it is. Imo.

Had LT done something impressive before that time, id agree.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Good stuff. 👆

Who is Silk Man?

A Lucifer foe. Though i don't recall being impressed with him tbh.

Cosmic Armor Superman is metafictional, and prime STORY of DC universe. Even writer can't vanish his story.
He may defeat beyonder from 4th wall, because Beyonder is not writer's avatar. He is only a character.

Off course, if 4th wall breaking is not accepted, and, if everything shoud be based on feat, He will lose.

^ that logic doesn't work.

Here's an example of She hulk and Renee Witterstaetter (Editor of the issue) with an imprisoned John Bryne (the writer of that issue):

http://i.imgur.com/79arrTs.jpg

That's fourth wall breaking as well.

Here's John featured in a fantastic Four issue:

http://i.imgur.com/achmj8W.jpg

Here's John again in Uncanny X Men:

http://i.imgur.com/gVxDgmw.jpg

there are many more.

Heck, let's go even further than that, here's Marvel Encyclopedia listing Earth-1218 (the real world, our world) as part of the mainstream mutiverse:

http://i.imgur.com/1b5wxPW.jpg?1

So that means that every single being in Marvel who can affect the multiverse (which are a lot) is > the writers.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope. He will be stopped like every villain ever.

stoned

Originally posted by operator616
^ that logic doesn't work.

Here's an example of She hulk and Renee Witterstaetter (Editor of the issue) with an imprisoned John Bryne (the writer of that issue):

http://i.imgur.com/79arrTs.jpg

That's fourth wall breaking as well.

Here's John featured in a fantastic Four issue:

http://i.imgur.com/achmj8W.jpg

Here's John again in Uncanny X Men:

http://i.imgur.com/gVxDgmw.jpg

there are many more.

Heck, let's go even further than that, here's Marvel Encyclopedia listing Earth-1218 (the real world, our world) as part of the mainstream mutiverse:

http://i.imgur.com/1b5wxPW.jpg?1

So that means that every single being in Marvel who can affect the multiverse (which are a lot) is > the writers.

IN interview, Morrison said that only never ending STORY can defeat mandrakk.
In DC, It is Superman. Cosmic Armor Superman is embodiment of Superman's STORY itself. If Beyonder's STORY is weaker than Superman's, He can't defeat Superman. Cosmic Armor Superman will change the course of the story to beat Beyonder.

And, If you say that every single being in Marvel who can affect the multiverse (which are a lot) is > the writers, Superman is creator of Real world aka QWEWQ from All-Star Superman. And, QWEWQ appear in JLA too.

Originally posted by operator616

Because Nebulos didn't display anything impressive on panel (though his staff contained those powerful evils but meh.....still not impressed). And the fact that their battle constituted of throwing some rocks around or something akin to that.

In the same principle, (In his only appearance) Nebulos gave the most powerful entity a hard time,
which speaks volumes about Nebulos/Staff.

As for the cheesiness of the battle, 1967 friend, you should cut dem some slack.

Originally posted by operator616

Yeah, and LT never did anything siginificant before SW 2, apart from that what if (even then, he wasn't that impressive).

The What If feat is big. LT went as far as he needed to go per plot.

Originally posted by operator616

The main point is that, the megaversal showing was after SW 2 happened (however you see it, be it in 1997 or 2006)

Originally posted by operator616

Had LT done something impressive before that time, id agree.

Imo, that's what constitutes an upgrade or otherwise.

I love PR Beyonder, but I think Primal Monitor and World's Funnest Mxy have the juice to stop him. IMO Beyonder would pwn everyone else though (including GEB, CA Supes, Lucifer, etc.)

Originally posted by CatL18
IN interview, Morrison said that only never ending STORY can defeat mandrakk.
In DC, It is Superman. Cosmic Armor Superman is embodiment of Superman's STORY itself. If Beyonder's STORY is weaker than Superman's, He can't defeat Superman. Cosmic Armor Superman will change the course of the story to beat Beyonder.

And, If you say that every single being in Marvel who can affect the multiverse (which are a lot) is > the writers, Superman is creator of Real world aka QWEWQ from All-Star Superman. And, QWEWQ appear in JLA too.

It wasn't just the interview, it was stated in the comic itself as well. and it doesn't really matter if Superman's story is the strongest in DC (which is understandable, he's the most popular character), because the Beyonder is in Marvel. So when Thought Robot displays power enough to be millions of times greater than a bunch of high end multiversal abstracts, then we'll talk whether he can over-power the Beyonder or not.

And i could prove you wrong by saying that this concept was present even Pre-Crisis, here's 2 examples (of Earth-Prime) from separate JLA issues, one from the 70s, the other from the 80s:

http://i.imgur.com/AiEzzYs.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/0KsJrDr.jpg

I guess i shouldn't tell you what happened to that earth (since the crisis happened).

Which is why what i was saying, is that this shouldn't be taken seriously.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Scathan didn't do anything impressive at all, except defeat Protege,
and he didn't even get to lift a rock.

In the same principle, (In his only appearance) Nebulos gave the most powerful entity a hard time,
which speaks volumes about Nebulos/Staff.

As for the cheesiness of the battle, 1967 friend, you should cut dem some slack.

Well, at least in Scathan's case, the implication was pretty clear to me regarding his power-level.

We see him holding Beyonder + Protege in a hand and being present with LT and friends in the realm of cosmic beings (which encompasses the whole multiverse) outside of all reality. That's quite different from throwing some rocks around. Not to mention that Scathan was introduced less than a year after that FFA issue where it was mentioned the Celestials have trans-infinite power-level. Tom DeFalco being the editor-in-chief for both of those stories (i dunno, perhaps there's some sort of connection).

I didn't get any implications from Nebulos to suggest that he's that powerful. And i can say with full confidence, that if Nebulos (with his power being equivalent of how he originally portrayed to be) resurfaced and went up against current LT, he'd be blinked out of existence.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Interesting. Now, recall how many times a story called for the LT to do something "significant" ... and yet, the LT could not? (prior to SWI-II)

The What If feat is big. LT went as far as he needed to go per plot.

Lack of feats isn't the character's fault, he's the LT, a boring read, we ain't gonna see much of him,
but I'm more interested in seeing what "impressive" feats did he attempt, and fail,
and then later on was able to perform.

Imo, that's what constitutes an upgrade or otherwise.

In the What if? issue, Korvac defied LT after he carried out his "ultimate punishment" in the form of a super-nova (Lol).
And after that the LT himself said that he is pretty helpless, so that issue isn't exactly one of LT's shining performances.

Also, funny how after re-looking at that issue, i saw LT using the "continuum of universeS" interchangeably with the multiverse.......not that i wanna discuss this topic again but....just saying.

Originally posted by operator616
^ that logic doesn't work.

Originally posted by operator616
It wasn't just the interview, it was stated in the comic itself as well. and it doesn't really matter if Superman's story is the strongest in DC (which is understandable, he's the most popular character), because the Beyonder is in Marvel. So when Thought Robot displays power enough to be millions of times greater than a bunch of high end multiversal abstracts, then we'll talk whether he can over-power the Beyonder or not.

And i could prove you wrong by saying that this concept was present even Pre-Crisis, here's 2 examples (of Earth-Prime) from separate JLA issues, one from the 70s, the other from the 80s:

http://i.imgur.com/AiEzzYs.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/0KsJrDr.jpg

I guess i shouldn't tell you what happened to that earth (since the crisis happened).

Which is why what i was saying, is that this shouldn't be taken seriously.

And I think that in interview, Morrison said that QWEWQ is us.

^ larger than a multiverse that is constituted of 52 universes, which is infinitely smaller than a multiverse constituted of infinite universes (in case of Marvel)? Sure. Yeah, i read the comic, and this "Cosmic Armor" of his which can "adapt to any threat" got destroyed in the end.

I already explained the 4th wall thingy, im not going to repeat myself again.

Originally posted by CatL18
How powerful do you think Cosmic Armor Superman is?

Id rank him below Lucifer/Michael.