Mandrakk(Dax Novu) vs Thanos with IG

Originally posted by Mr Master
But G, Incomplete IG operated across infinite universeS while Warlock & Magus struggled.

So ... how can the complete IG be anything less?

Feel free to disagree with me(I'm sure you do), but you won't be changing my mind on that subject-- just like I won't be changing yours. So I don't really care to continue debating about it.

Didn't Eternity and Infinity kick the Christ out of Magus when he had the (incomplete) IG?

^ Something like that...

Originally posted by Sundipped
To be fair, that scan states that the cubes do in fact have limitations. It takes billions of souls bound together to overcome these limitations which are due to having force of will. So in essence, one needs prep with CCs to reach the unrestricted might of the IG in its totality.

Well, yeah it does require enough "will" to be on par with the infinity gems; doesn't change the fact that it's potentially capable of doing that, though.

Originally posted by operator616
Later in All New Exiles Infinity, the part of Nemesis' energy was ending reality and had multi-universal effects as well:
http://i.imgur.com/x2GhSZB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bUIcmEN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lnqvmxa.jpg

I always felt that Juggy scene depicts possibly the Omniverse being flipped.
If not, at-least the the two multiverseS involved in this story: (Prime and Ultraverse)

It shows that the final Wave remade even UniverseS
that exist Between Realities, like the Crimson Cosmos:

"This World between Worlds ...
a Wave of energy unknown suddenly sweeps across him
from Everywhere and Nowhere at once ...

... through All That Is or Ever Was ... As Reality ends."

-------------------------------------------------------

The IG's power (Nemesis) had already performed a multi-Multiversal feat:

Evidently after Nemesis obliterated the entire 616 Universe & the entire Ultraverse Universe,
she tried to create a small reality with parts from both UniverseS,
but since the Gems were hampering her, she was losing control,
because of this, Nemesis' power also broke down the walls between all realities.

Which lead to ALL Realities merging! (those belonging to the Prime Multiverse and Ultraverse Multiverse)

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985851_IG_Nem_merges_Uni3.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985853_IG_Nem_merges_Uni4.jpg]

"Nemesis is still tinkering with Reality, and All the Walls have fallen down"

"Whatever -- Alternate versions of UltraForce & Avengers are coming from everywhere"

I submit, I don't think this was a pre-mediated act on Nemesis' part
but rather a consequence of her continuing to create withIN the Ultraverse.

But, this madness of infinities of meshed UniverseS had to get fixed right?
The only power that put everything back was Nemesis' Creative Energies/Force at the end.

It's annoying that the writer didn't include that specific.

Originally posted by operator616
IG (minus reality gem) Magus merged 2 independent universes in an instant. Simple.

Originally posted by operator616
I know that you're aware of their meaning. Which is why i wasn't explaining the meaning, but rather explaining my reasoning behind my claims of it being a pocket universe. Go re-read my post carefully to understand.

Originally posted by operator616
Warlock & the infinity Watch #10 is part of Infinity War........
Anyway, not sure what you're teaching me here, because im the one who presented this scan, and i read it just fine myself.
I agree, it's interesting how Thanos' claim in SS v3 #44 is contradicted by the scene i posted.

Anyway, wasn't trying to teach ya, just highlighting my perspective.
You may have posted it yesterday, but I posted that scan years ago, several times.
(I can get ya links)

So yea, I really did enjoy how Starlin differentiates the potential of an Alternate IG, with the 616 IG.

Originally posted by operator616
I already know. Which is why i wasn't arguing about it.

Originally posted by operator616
Ah......Thanos utilizing the time gem; im sure Starlin intended Thanos to be hopping across alternate universes........
Though tell me something; the current IG has a time gem as well, and does this prevent it from being limited to its native reality? No it doesn't (New Avengers v3 #2):
http://i.imgur.com/XY8zcOK.jpg?1
It's been confirmed several times, you know......
So going by your logic, current IG should be not limited to one universe, because well, there's always the time gem which can make you pop across alternate universes.

So, no need for me to go into a side debate.

It doesn't interest me what the New Retconned IG can and cannot do concerning Starlin's IG.

Originally posted by operator616
Yeah, Thanos' beyond universal feat is very impressive, but it only proves that he can affect multiple realities, not that it cements his one statement which has been contradicted dozens of times (saying that he is universal). I already posted the scan in which he says in the same issue that he's supreme within one reality. your interpretation of the scene is incorrect, imo.

Thanos never ever said his supremacy was limited or constricted, like we've heard about the new Retconned IG.

Anyway, Any Timeline was accessible to Thanos' IG with a thought: (he jumped across Two extremes)

[img=http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17506863_IG_Time.jpg]

Heck, even Incomplete IG/Magus had equal access to other periods in Time outside 616:

I know you don't believe Starlin didn't know Dinos were extint. (obliviously an alternate-earth)

Originally posted by operator616
So, the realm of the Beyonders are beyond the omniverse now. Okay, let's look at the evidence.
First off, when you claim that the Beyonders' universe is beyond the omniverse you're also acknowledging that Kubik and Kosmos are capable of getting there by themselves (much like Thanos' IG power reached the universe).
Then again, a 2006 handbook says that the Kubik/Kosmos tour was across the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/pxn6PVB.jpg?1

Kaminski only had 10 Pages to work with son, (it was a back story)
to explain the feakin Marvel Universe in 10 pages ... not easy.
Shit's gonna be left out ... of course!

Dude, you should know, that the term "omniverse" is seldom used,
and most stories ignore it all together making the Multiverse/s all there is.
Also, Kaminski has never used the term, "omniverse" anyway that I know of.
He'll use the phrase ... "infinite multiverses," but that's it.

But that aside ....

Kaminski highlighted the knowledge of "Other MultiverseS" via Kubik:

[img=http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17507181_LT_infinite.jpg]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Kaminski also told us that All There IS, including the LT, who operates in all MultiverseS simultaneously, is all withIN Eternity:

[img=http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17507272_Eternity_Exit1.jpg]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then Kaminski has Kubik/Kosmos exit, All There IS ... and the final
Ascension is the Beyond Realm, OUTSIDE All Eternity: (All There Is)

There's nothing left beyond the Beyond Realm, except to return to "All There IS" (Eternity/infinity)

[img=http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17507342_Eternity_exit2.jpg]

Next to the Beyond Realm (Beyonders) ... All There IS (All Eternity/Infinity) is an insignificant speck.

So, how in the hell did you interpret this as a reality withIN Eternity? 😐

Originally posted by operator616
.......and one of the universes Kubik/Kosmos visited during their little tour in Fantastic Four Annual #23, was the realm of the Beyonders. So we know that Beyonders' universe, must be located within the mainstream multiverse.

Originally posted by operator616
It's a handbook, but it's better than nothing, no? Because claiming that the realm of Beyonders is beyond the omnniverse is literally based on nothing

Interesting. I have a "handbook" too, it's updated nearly Two years after yours was published.

Well, ... Marvunapp agrees with me that its Beyond the Multiverse!

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/beyondersw.htm

(scroll down to the middle where the Kubik/Shaper/CCU pic is at, under FF-Annual I#23/3)

"Kubik welcomed her and led her on a tour of the universe, the multiverse and beyond, showing how it all cycled in a full circle."

🙂

Further down the page below "Clarifications" they confirm what I already knew ...
... Beyonders' universe (Beyond Realm) is OUTSIDE the Multiverse!

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/beyondersw.htm

"Beyonders, enigmatic race outside of the mulitverse"

Originally posted by operator616
Also, we have High Evolutionary visit the museum of the Beyonders in their own universe (going outside the omniverse itself, apparently, even though evidently, there was still stars/planets just like any regular universe), HE/Beyonders handbooks:
http://i.imgur.com/Jog7wfA.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/I9Uu3Wp.jpg?1
on panel, from Avengers Annual #17:
http://i.imgur.com/g1EtjeS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2QSyBK4.jpg
Seems also like normal space, certainly not beyond the omniverse, imo.

"Apparently the HE visited their dimension if he was their "museum."

That bone-head handbook writer doesn't even know HE went insane from the magnificence he witnessed and it had nothing at all with HE trying to comprehend the Beyonders or their realm.

Also, I may have to go back to those books
but I remember this planetary display was at the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy.
Yea, that was a "sector of space" in the Milky Way Galaxy the Beyonders were using to display their collection:

Also, one of the he base of operations of the "Movers of Tarkus" is .. the Milky Way Galaxy:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/sphnxr.htm#Ring

I'll flip some pages though to be sure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Although, I'm almost sure the Beyonders' arm was all that penetrated into Galaxy,
and the Beyond Realm is outside of the Multiverse. Beyond All There IS!

Originally posted by operator616
So tell me, do you acknowledge that HE, Kubik and Kosmos can travel beyond the omniverse???

Originally posted by operator616
Also, i know that there isn't an issue saying that the Beyonders realm is beyond the omniverse, so puttiing that aside........are you really basing this off the fact that Eternity dwindles into insignificance?
So that means you think that Eternity is the embodiment of the omniverse according to you? Which is......just wrong (isn't debatable), and you know it.

Anyway, my opinion comes from this:

When Dr Doom and the FF went looking for Beyonder's Universe
they passed by the BeyonderS Realm, it was lightless, and void.

When Kubik/Kosmos went into the Beyond Realm (Outside All There IS) it looks like a vast infinite Nothingness:

The TVA dumps parts of realities and entire universeS into the Nothingness "Beyond"
which is at the edge of their headquarters. Which means ... (edge of the omniverse)

Because as we know, the TVA headquarters is as long as the Omniverse,
that's a fact, and they are dumping Realities at the end/edge of their headquarters
through a doorway (door of discontinued universeS) that's Beyond their headquarters that is as long as the Omniverse,
therefore the "door of discontinued universeS" leads to ... Beyond the Omniverse.

Now, yea, I may be wrong ... Interesting though isn't it,
eerily familiar looking to the Beyond Realm too[/b], a white void of nothingness ... labelled .... the "Beyond."

This, coupled with the fact that the Beyond Realm was depicted as being the Final ascendence,
literally outside/beyond All There IS ... where All Eternity/infinity becomes insignificant/infinitesimal,
meh, one has to wonder about the coincidence here.

It also makes sense that this debris or even entire universes are not noticed getting dumped in here,
since even All There Is (All Eternity/Infinity) is an insignificant speck in here.

Just sayin ...

Originally posted by operator616
Hmm.........

i remember in that same arc, in Warlock chronicles #3 (Written by Starlin as well), it's stated that a cosmic cube is as all powerful as the infinity gems used in unison:
http://i.imgur.com/4VETzD6.jpg

..........just saying

This is also theoretical, (concerning CCU equating to the IG)
although there's no doubt a CCU can make one god-like.

Originally posted by operator616

.........Thanos was called God many times, as you know. So that Marvel Age interview isn't teaching us something new.
On another note though here's a Marvel age issue which says: Thanos was the supreme being in the universe:
http://i.imgur.com/dshi1ej.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/XGAtVqW.jpg?1
"Dominate a dimension"..........??
That's from Marvel Age #99, after Starlin's silver surfer run (or at least issue #44) prior to IG (where Thanos' "supreme in all universes" claim happened).........interesting, no?

Anyway ... Starlin (as narrator) also stated this: (on panel)

"Supreme being of This Universe ... and Reality" (differentiating two items there)

🙂

Originally posted by operator616

And like i said before, if anything the fact that it was a universal event as opposed to a multiversal one, should be proof enough. The "Beyond universal" feat that Thanos had was (as you know) from Warlock & the infinity watch #4, which wasn't even a tie-in......Warlock & The Infinity Watch began after IG.

I posted the scans already.

We simply didn't know how far reaching these inter-dimensional changes and space-time shift went,
this is where W&IW#4 comes in.

This, is no way takes away from the feat, if that's what your trying to spin now.

Originally posted by operator616

Also, not sure how the UN showing, is multiversal?

I was posting feats, you know, feats that stand out. (you decided to quote & challenge everything I posted)

Anyway, Incomplete IG tanking then owning with a thought the most powerful weapon (UN) was one of em.

Originally posted by operator616

Perhaps. Though there's no confirmation. But in any case, affecting the future doesn't prove that it's fully multiversal in scope. Recently in ultimate comics ultimatum, Kang (invisible woman of this reality), was going to save that alt. Earth's future with the Infinity Gems (which are limited to their native reality):
http://i.imgur.com/zj9GP6m.jpg
So.....

What does this mean, prove or have to do with Warlock/Magus operating across infinite universeS,
and a residual affect of "Time Ripples" lingering afterwards 1000+ Years in the Future?

Also, the effect wasn't situated in the Future, Dr Strange never said that,
it just so happens that Strange was leaving Reality-691 when he noticed.

Dr Strange made it seem like this affect was across all of Time.
(since he never alluded to a limit)

-------------------------------------------------------------

That aside,
your scan makes no sense. I also never read where that came from.
How is that IG able to function in parallel universes,
if it's constricted to its native reality?

What's the plot?

Originally posted by Galan007

I don't think a single use of the word "countless"

is enough to solidify the IG as a true multiversal artifact, given the
slew evidence that puts it in the multi-universal class.

[img=http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17507856_IG_beyond_universe_7.jpg]

That's an Incomplete IG (a taste of the complete IG)

[img=http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17507858_Incomplete_IG_Taste.jpg]

🙂

The effects of this Incomplete IG feat involving infinite universeS was felt 1000+ Years in the Future:

[img=http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17507943_Alternate_Futures.jpg]

a.) The exact word used was "countless", not "infinite".
b.) I do not need to prove a negative. If Thanos never acquired a legitimate multiversal feat with the IG, then he never acquired a legitimate multiversal feat with the IG. Simple. Speculating what you think he might have been able to do based on the verbiage used in a single scan/panel from an unrelated arc is an overtly faulty line of logic, imo.
c.) See Bran's post. If an incomplete IG is a multiversal power(iyo), it means that Eternity/Infinity would be >> a multiversal power, given that they ultimately beat Magus. Suffice to say, I [still] disagree.

Anywho, you can clutch onto that one word/panel if you want to. As I said, I could care less about this topic-- I'm really just not interested. So yeah, you can have the last word. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007

a.) The exact word used was "countless", not "infinite".
b.) I do not need to prove a negative. If Thanos never acquired a legitimate multiversal feat with the IG, then he never acquired a legitimate multiversal feat with the IG. Simple. Speculating what you think he might have been able to do based on the verbiage used in a single scan/panel is an overtly faulty line of logic, imo.
c.) See Bran's post. If an incomplete IG is a multiversal power(iyo), it means that Eternity/Infinity would be >> a multiversal power, given that they ultimately beat Magus. So yeah, I [still] disagree.

b) I never said the Incomplete IG was multiversal, I said what's been proven on panel,
it operated across Countless UniverseS, and did other things aside from that.
Based on this though, Complete IG has to be far more, than "countless" is?

c) That was Eternity/Infinity merged (all of space-time-matter) as one,
attacking Magus, after Magus had just struggled with Warlock across an infinitude of universeS.

Heck, Warlock even waited for the right moment.

Evidently, Eternity/Infinity merged were more powerful at that point after Magus' struggling with Adam.
Although imo, Eternity/Infinity merged > Incomplete IG.

Originally posted by Galan007

Anywho, you can clutch onto that one word/panel if you want to. I could care less.

Originally posted by Mr Master

I always felt that Juggy scene depicts possibly the Omniverse being flipped.
If not, at-least the the two multiverseS involved in this story: (Prime and Ultraverse)

It shows that the final Wave remade even UniverseS
that exist Between Realities, like the Crimson Cosmos:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16039031/N_Waves1.jpg.html

"This World between Worlds ...
a [b]Wave of energy unknown suddenly sweeps across him
from Everywhere and Nowhere at once ...

... through All That Is or Ever Was ... As Reality ends."

-------------------------------------------------------

The IG's power (Nemesis) had already performed a multi-Multiversal feat:

Evidently after Nemesis obliterated the entire 616 Universe & the entire Ultraverse Universe,
she tried to create a small reality with parts from both UniverseS,
but since the Gems were hampering her, she was losing control,
because of this, Nemesis' power also broke down the walls between all realities.

Which lead to ALL Realities merging! (those belonging to the Prime Multiverse and Ultraverse Multiverse)

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985851_IG_Nem_merges_Uni3.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985853_IG_Nem_merges_Uni4.jpg]

"Nemesis is still tinkering with Reality, and All the Walls have fallen down"

"Whatever -- Alternate versions of UltraForce & Avengers are coming from everywhere"

I submit, I don't think this was a pre-mediated act on Nemesis' part
but rather a consequence of her continuing to create withIN the Ultraverse.

But, this madness of infinities of meshed UniverseS had to get fixed right?
The only power that put everything back was Nemesis' Creative Energies/Force at the end.

It's annoying that the writer didn't include that specific.
[/B]

Actually, the Crimson Cosmos exists inside the gem of cyttorak, here's Jean along with Scott getting pulled into the gem, and end up in the Crimson Cosmos, back in Uncanny X Men #33:

http://i.imgur.com/1y10rfb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7u7r8bP.jpg

It's been confirmed several times (including the handbook), though i recall something different during Infinity War, regarding the Crimson Cosmos

Moving on:

I disagree, because the term "omniverse" has to be referenced for me to consider it an omniversal feat. Unless there's heavy context alluding to it being omniversal (like in the case of Owen/Beyonder). This isn't the case here. Sure, it dealt with 2 multiverses, but there's no confirmation at all of it being omniversal.....or even 2 multiverses for that matter.

So, you're saying that Nemesis remade 2 multiverses in the end? I disagree, that wasn't mentioned. Also, the 1990s Marvel legacy handbook outright says: in that other multiverse........Nemesis wrecked havoc across 2 dimensions (universes). Let me know if you need the proof.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Anyway, wasn't trying to teach ya, just highlighting my perspective.
You may have posted it yesterday, but I posted that scan years ago, several times.
(I can get ya links)

So yea, I really did enjoy how Starlin differentiates the potential of an Alternate IG, with the 616 IG.

Alright. Ill take your word for it, i didn't know you posted it before.

Don't think so. Starlin was trying to say that each IG makes one supreme in one reality, imo. He may have began the event intending it to be multiverse (with that Silver Surfer issue), but certainly didn't follow up on that statement, afterwards.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This has nothing to do with the classic IG I'm discussing.

So, no need for me to go into a side debate.

It doesn't interest me what the New Retconned IG can and cannot do concerning Starlin's IG.

I disagree.

Thanos never ever said his supremacy was limited or constricted, like we've heard about the new Retconned IG.

Anyway, Any Timeline was accessible to Thanos' IG with a thought: (he jumped across Two extremes)

[img=http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17506863_IG_Time.jpg]

Heck, even Incomplete IG/Magus had equal access to other periods in Time outside 616:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17506862/IG_beyond_universe_4.jpg.html

I know you don't believe Starlin didn't know Dinos were extint. (obliviously an alternate-earth)

But it has everything to do with the classic IG. Current IG -- just like the classic -- has a time gem (which can make one pop into different time-periods), and yet its limited to its native reality. See, i told you that time-periods = alternate realities, is not always used by all the writers, and i already proved it in another thread.

Do you see me arguing that the IG is incapable of accessing other time-periods? Because i thought i made it quite clear that it does. Im arguing that this wasn't intended to be an alternate earth just like in the case of Sise-Neg which you brought up a while ago. So, I am not arguing that Thanos couldn't do that, merely saying that your interpretation of that scan, imo.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Good ol' handbooks. They did tour the Multiverse, and Beyond the Multiverse too.
Did you really think the artist was going to illustrate more? (they gave us a general idea)

Kaminski only had 10 Pages to work with son, (it was a back story)
to explain the feakin Marvel Universe in 10 pages ... not easy.
Shit's gonna be left out ... of course!

Dude, you should know, that the term "omniverse" is seldom used,
and most stories ignore it all together making the Multiverse/s all there is.
Also, Kaminski has never used the term, "omniverse" anyway that I know of.
He'll use the phrase ... "infinite multiverses," but that's it.

But that aside ....

Kaminski highlighted the knowledge of "Other MultiverseS" via Kubik:

[img=http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17507181_LT_infinite.jpg]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Kaminski also told us that All There IS, including the LT, who operates in all MultiverseS simultaneously, is all withIN Eternity:

[img=http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17507272_Eternity_Exit1.jpg]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then Kaminski has Kubik/Kosmos exit, All There IS ... and the final
Ascension is the Beyond Realm, OUTSIDE All Eternity: (All There Is)

There's nothing left beyond the Beyond Realm, except to return to "All There IS" (Eternity/infinity)

[img=http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/17507342_Eternity_exit2.jpg]

Next to the Beyond Realm (Beyonders) ... All There IS (All Eternity/Infinity) is an insignificant speck.

So, how in the hell did you interpret this as a reality withIN Eternity?

That's not true. ... Proven right above, or below. Kubik/Kosmos [b]were outside All There IS (Eternity)

"Handbook" you say, "better than nothing?" ... Perhaps, but there's something more.

Interesting. I have a "handbook" too, it's updated nearly Two years after yours was published.

Well, ... Marvunapp agrees with me that its Beyond the Multiverse!

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/beyondersw.htm

(scroll down to the middle where the Kubik/Shaper/CCU pic is at, under FF-Annual I#23/3)

"Kubik welcomed her and led her on a tour of the universe, the multiverse and beyond, showing how it all cycled in a full circle."

Further down the page below "Clarifications" they confirm what I already knew ...
... Beyonders' universe (Beyond Realm) is OUTSIDE the Multiverse!

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/beyondersw.htm

"Beyonders, enigmatic race outside of the mulitverse" [/B]

Yeah, i already know that the term omniverse is rarely used (though there are a few exceptions, like Captain Britain/Exiles), and i also know that some writers aren't aware of the term (or perhaps don't care for it). And "multiverses" (plural), is used just as rarely as the term "omniverse". "Multiverse" (singular) is the most frequently used term out of all three.......this is common knowledge. This is why trans-multiversal feats are so rare, and that's what differentiates trans multiversal beings from mere multiversal. Because for a certain character to achieve such feats you should have a writer aware/mention those terms in a comic.

Also, Kaminski was one of the writers of the OHOTMU Master Edition (vol. 3), up until issue #18, and here's a reference to the omniverse from issue #15 (Saturnyne's entry) of the handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/81yEXEC.jpg?1

That means he's aware of the term, imo.

Also i take back my statement that the Beyonders' universe is within the mainstream multiverse, not because of your marvunapp bios but i recalled a statement of Kubik's from FF annual #26.

We both know that Kaminski is aware of multiple multiverseS, you posted a scan of Kubik from Fantastic Four Annual #23, and here's Kubik hinting that the realm of the Beyonders (which he along with Kosmos visited back in issue #23), is beyond the multiverse:

http://i.imgur.com/8XLUiEP.jpg?1

"outside the multiverse entirely, perhaps even from the realm of those unknown beyonders'

Though it should be noted: Kaminski hinted that it's beyond the singlular mainstream multiverse as opposed to all the multiverses (omniverse)

Then in the next year's annual (#27), Kaminski referenced "myriad multiverseS" yet again:

http://i.imgur.com/YxI9oGv.jpg?1

So.......had Kaminski intended to portray the realm of the Beyonders beyond the omniverse (all multiverses), he would have said that the realm of the Beyonders is outside the multiverses (plural instead of singular)......you follow?

Which is why id say, the realm of the Beyonders is outside the mainstream multiverse, but still inside the omniverse.

Also, regarding LT existing in all multiverses simultaneously and all of that being within Eternity: There's no Eternity/cosmic hierarchy outside the mainstream multiverse (I thought you knew this?):

http://i.imgur.com/kW3ijee.jpg?1

Notice it specifies Eternity as being part of the hierarchy, and then the 2 other handbooks, confirm this further:

http://i.imgur.com/cldF2nP.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/5njhq1p.jpg?1

And it also makes sense, we know that the universes outside the mainstream multiverse (one example being the New Universe) does not contain Eternity. In fact the whole point of Marvel having realities outside the mainstream multiverse is to try to dissociate them.

So what you're suggesting is impossible, imo. Not to mention that was 616 Eternity so im not sure how can you say that he embodies infinite multiverses.

-------------------

Even initially, i never said anything about the Beyonders' realm being inside Eternity to begin with. It would be stupid of me to say that considering that i think it was 616 Eternity who we saw in Fantastic Four annual #23, as opposed to some non-existent omniversal one.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Handbooks ... Handbooks which give info doubt:

"Apparently the HE visited their dimension if he was their "museum."

That bone-head handbook writer doesn't even know HE went insane from the magnificence he witnessed and it had nothing at all with HE trying to comprehend the Beyonders or their realm.

Also, I may have to go back to those books
but I remember this planetary display was at the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy.
Yea, that was a "sector of space" in the Milky Way Galaxy the Beyonders were using to display their collection:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17507629/Beyonders_space_sector.jpg.html

Also, one of the he base of operations of the "Movers of Tarkus" is .. the Milky Way Galaxy:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/sphnxr.htm#Ring

I'll flip some pages though to be sure.

Well, if you want further confirmation all you have to do is ask.

Avengers, Thor & Captain America Official Index to the Marvel Universe #9: Confirms that the issue (Avengers Annual #17) does have a location of "Beyonders' space, and Beyonders' lair (see 2nd story)

http://i.imgur.com/V4K9poi.jpg?1

Location/items: Beyonders' lair, Beyonders' space

+

the handbooks which i posted prior:

http://i.imgur.com/Jog7wfA.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/I9Uu3Wp.jpg?1

= Undeniable proof, imo.

Also, HE didn't go mad because of the magnificence he saw, it was because he realized how insignificant he is when compared to the Beyonders' (or their realm). Apart from it being confirmed in the handbook and the index, here's a retelling from a 1998 Quicksilver issue, which confirms that it was because of the Beyonders:

http://i.imgur.com/CuOyypR.jpg?1

That's exactly what happened in the Avengers annual. The madness (depression) drove him to

......and then comes asking the Hulk trying to destroy his armor, just like in the Avengers Annual:

http://i.imgur.com/GJp1LAa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8hEbYOv.jpg

So the writer is perfectly aware of what he's talking about 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master

I'm not absolutely certain about that. Bt it is my opinion based on other facts.
But I'm 100% certain they can travel outside the prime Multiverse, since they've done it on panel.

You're better off asking me questions than trying to figure out what's on my mind.

Anyway, [b]my opinion comes from this:

When Dr Doom and the FF went looking for Beyonder's Universe
they passed by the BeyonderS Realm, it was lightless, and void.

When Kubik/Kosmos went into the Beyond Realm (Outside All There IS) it looks like a vast infinite Nothingness:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12726710/Huh.jpg.html

The TVA dumps parts of realities and entire universeS into the Nothingness "Beyond"
which is at the edge of their headquarters. Which means ... (edge of the omniverse)

Because as we know, the TVA headquarters is as long as the Omniverse,
that's a fact, and they are dumping Realities at the end/edge of their headquarters
through a doorway (door of discontinued universeS) that's Beyond their headquarters that is as long as the Omniverse,
therefore the "door of discontinued universeS" leads to ... Beyond the Omniverse.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12726711/huh2.jpg.html

Now, yea, I may be wrong ... Interesting though isn't it,
eerily familiar looking to the Beyond Realm too, a white void of nothingness ... labelled .... the "Beyond."

This, coupled with the fact that the Beyond Realm was depicted as being the Final ascendence,
literally outside/beyond All There IS ... where All Eternity/infinity becomes insignificant/infinitesimal,
meh, one has to wonder about the coincidence here.

It also makes sense that this debris or even entire universes are not noticed getting dumped in here,
since even All There Is (All Eternity/Infinity) is an insignificant speck in here.

Just sayin ... [/B]

But how can you acknowledge one without acknowledging the other? If the realm of the Beyonders is beyond the omniverse (which it isn't imo) then Kubik/Kosmos should be able to go outside the omniverse as well. Simple. No one is arguing that they can travel beyond the mainstream multiverse at this point.

I don't think so.

1. Shaper also explained in FF 319 the Beyonders' universe, and we see it lightless:

http://i.imgur.com/5kOPGno.jpg?1

btw, the handbook confirms:

http://i.imgur.com/5Y8N7Ac.jpg?1

2. Those issues are written by different writers, though. The Kubik/Kosmos by Kaminski, while the TVA by Simonson. Not to mention that Kaminski's FF annual, came a year before Simonson's FF 353, so Kaminski couldn't have made the connection and it was never his intention. Had it been written by the same writer and after FF 353, id consider it.

3. Plus, Kaminski's fantastic four annual #26 (2 years after Simonson's FF #353), confirms that the universe of the Beyonders is outside the mainstream multiverse instead of "the multiverseS" (omniverse). A point which i explained in detail already.

4. And honestly, how do you expect a "void" to be like? it'd be either plain white or black/lightless. It's just a coincidence that the realm of Beyonders (in one depiction) was white, just like , and i don't see anything to believe there's a connection between the two, tbh.

The Eternity who became insignificant in comparison with the Beyonders' realm, was 616-Eternity, no reason to believe otherwise. Though you do have a point that the their realm was the final transcendence, because after the Beyonders' realm, Kubik/Kosmos descended on to the Quantum level. But, someting to consider: In the end, the final lesson is that the universe (omniverse, in this case) is a great wheel:

http://i.imgur.com/20bmYNq.jpg

So after ascending to the highest plane (Beyonders' realm), you ascend to the infinitesimal level, and so on.....and all of this is inside the omniverse (evidently).

Originally posted by Mr Master

The first link doesn't say shit. The second link states: "Supreme being of the universe."
You enjoy interchanging the term "universe" with all (multiverse and/or more) when it suits you friend.

Anyway ... Starlin (as narrator) also stated this: (on panel)

"Supreme being of This Universe ... [b]and Reality" (differentiating two items there)

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17507678/Thanos_Supreme_Starlin.jpg.html

Actually, in the original IG saga, it was portrayed on panel Thanos releasing his psychic wave.
it caused "inter-dimensional changes ... and "shifted the Space-Time Continuum""

I posted the scans already.

We simply didn't know how far reaching these inter-dimensional changes and space-time shift went,
this is where W&IW#4 comes in.

This, is no way takes away from the feat, if that's what your trying to spin now.

[/B]

The first link was only to post the full paragraph, because the part in the first link was at the bottom of the page, while the part of the 2nd link was at the top of the page, hence why i edited them and post them indendently. Here's the entire page:

http://i.imgur.com/i8HIz20.jpg

Notice then afterwards, it says that Thanos planned to kill half population of the universe, so we know that the universe in the context of the sentence: "Thanos has achieved the mantle of supreme being in the universe"......refers to a single universe. That is, unless you're willing to argue that Thanos planned to kill half the population of the multiverse/omniverse.

What? When did i ever interchange the term "universe" with the multiverse/omiverse when it suits me. Go ahead id really like to know.

That scan proves that Thanos is the supreme being of one reality/universe, nothing more. So not sure why post it. I should thank you i guess, for proving my point.

Anyway, here's random scans proving that Thanos was a threat to a single universe:

http://i.imgur.com/p5ahr8Z.jpg?1

"This universe"

http://i.imgur.com/Kq4ZlZG.jpg?1

"your reality"

http://i.imgur.com/9pnbi5r.jpg?1

"This universe"

Those are from the main issues of IG

in a Silver Surfer tie-in, Thanos himself declaring: I have a universe to dominate:

http://i.imgur.com/oeqU5qF.jpg?1

Interesting isn't? cause that's exactly what the interview mentioned:

http://i.imgur.com/DaSHlF1.jpg?1

Yes, read the arc and saw the scans. The point is that Thanos affecting the Beyonders' universe wasn't in the IG arc, not sure what you're arguing here.

No, i am not saying that this takes away Thanos feat in any way. I mentioned this feat myself at the beginning of the thread.

Originally posted by Mr Master

I never said it did. Enuff with the circles friend.

I was posting feats, you know, feats that stand out. (you decided to quote & challenge everything I posted)

Anyway, Incomplete IG tanking then owning with a thought the most powerful weapon (UN) was one of em.

Well, considering that UN is a multiversal weapon, i thought you were implying that.

I ignored some the feats you posted because they were irrelevant, i only dealt with the ones that "prove" him as being fully multiversal. My original position is that it wasn't, which is why im arguing about it now. I have no problem with not replying if you want, though.

Originally posted by Mr Master

What?

What does this mean, prove or have to do with Warlock/Magus operating across infinite universeS,
and a residual affect of "Time Ripples" lingering afterwards 1000+ Years in the Future?

Also, the effect wasn't situated in the Future, Dr Strange never said that,
it just so happens that Strange was leaving Reality-691 when he noticed.

Dr Strange made it seem like this affect was across all of Time.
(since he never alluded to a limit)

-------------------------------------------------------------

That aside,
your scan makes no sense. I also never read where that came from.
How is that IG able to function in parallel universes,
if it's constricted to its native reality?

What's the plot?

My bad, i should've explained it more detailed. But it was the last point and i was tired.......

Anyway, if you want all the details go read ultimate comics ultimates #25-30.

Basically, Kang wants to prevent the destruction of the future of th ultimate-verse, and she (invisble woman-Kang) is hoping to achieve that through the infinity gems.

The point is that (like in Infinity War) using the gems in the present and them affecting a future reality doesn't prove it's multiverse because well, it's the future, it's gonna have effects/consequences.

But let's focus on the important part of that Warlock/Magus scan:

http://i.imgur.com/HADIfo8.jpg?1

"countless planes........for the fate of the universe"

I posted that before. You must have missed it. It's an ambiguous feat.

Originally posted by operator616
But let's focus on the important part of that Warlock/Magus scan:

http://i.imgur.com/HADIfo8.jpg?1

"countless planes........for the fate of [B]the universe"

I posted that before. You must have missed it. It's an ambiguous feat. [/B]

If it were a multiversal feat(as some have claimed), then the outcome wouldn't have simply decided the fate of 'a' universe-- it would have decided the fate of 'infinite' universeS. So yeah, ambiguous is right. Lol.

Mind citing the issue # so I can be sure to reference this scan in the future?

^ Fantastic Four #370.

Thanks. 👆

I'll make sure to highlight that comic for ease of future reference.

Originally posted by operator616
Yes, read the arc and saw the scans. The point is that Thanos affecting the Beyonders' universe

Did I overrate Mandrakk? I thought Mandrakk is metafictional or metaconceptual character, and at least metaversal. and I saw many thread mandrakk defeat multiversal being like chaos king in this forum. Was it wrong? I'm really confused.

Originally posted by CatL18
Did I overrate Mandrakk? I thought Mandrakk is metafictional or metaconceptual character, and at least metaversal. and I saw many thread mandrakk defeat multiversal being like chaos king in this forum. Was it wrong? I'm really confused.

The problem with Mandrakk is that its easier to say he beats (insert multiversal DC Character's name here) by eating his/her story.A lot of people assumes Mandrakk's concept of eating stories can also be applied to Marvel Characters.But does Marvel view their story concepts the way DC does?I honestly don't know if Marvel views the story of a character the same way DC does.But it will be false to claim/assume w/o proof that Marvel views their story the same way DC does.And if we apply this to Mandrakk Vs (Insert Multiversal Marvel Character here), who can say Mandrakk will eat a Marvel Multiversal Character's story if no one has proof Marvel views their story concept the same way DC does?There is no character in Marvel who eats a character's story the same way Mandrakk does.If there is, we're not even certain if that is the same concept DC uses.That becomes a problem against Mandrakk.The eating story ability becomes a no limit fallacy if that is also applied to Marvel Characters.And no limits fallacy isn't allowed in the forums.Only panel vs panel discussion is allowed in Vs Forums settings.Take away Mandrakk's eating story concept and just place on panel vs a Marvel Multiversal character's on panel.Mandrakk would suddenly lose his advantage.His lack of appearances becomes a bit of a hindrance to him.The only thing Mandrakk has going for him is statements by other characters and people on every other forum like "he will drain the bleed dry".And only a writer can create a story that destroys a multiverse.I guess Fred Hembeck stomps all then.He's a character and a writer who can destroy a character or an omniverse by writing a story of being killed by Crackers the clown.Only TOAA himself stopped Fred Hembeck(since he's almost TOAA level) from accomplishing this.And if TOAA states "Let my characters(Marvel) be immune to Mandrakk's story eating", what's left for Mandrakk then?

As for Chaos King, he gets a lot of hate here.