Planet Busting vs.. Combat Related Feats

Lolz at the Firelord and GL owning. 😛

PIS is indeed a constant issue. But PIS also applies to non-combat Feats. I've seen characters that are well below Class 100 lift things that they have no business trying to budge.

That's why I always go with "consistent" or "repetitive" as a precursor for gauging what is PIS, and what is simply part of a character's power set. If they do something idiotic once, it is likely PIS. If they do something idiotic several times... then it probably isn't as idiotic as I thought, and I may need to re-assess just where on the "comic food chain" said character truly sits.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Combat related feats easy

Originally posted by JBL
Planet destroying or planet lifting feats wins every single time. Combat feats can and HAS fell under pis. Surfer and firelord have a good fight in the comics ( has happened ) Thor and firelord have a good fight ( has happened ) Spiderman comes along and beat firelord in a fight, Now using combat feats, i can claim that spiderman can stand up to both thor and surfer going by his BS combat feat. Superman benches the earth weight, gladiator destroys a planet but combat wise they both have lost to characters they should outright destroy with their powerset. You can go back and forth all day with combat feats where A beats B, B beats C, C beats A. We know that superman benched the earths weight and gladiator destroyed a planet with his fists, But do you see them using that kind of strength in combat??? No you do not, and when people make threads about characters at their best, superman will use that STRENGTH feat to send someone into outer space or to the grave and so will gladiator.

And this is why this is the best of both worlds :

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Both with some common sense added to the mix.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I often-times read post that proclaim character "A" should be able to stomp character "B" simply because "A" has destoyed a planet and "B" has not (even though they are within the same tier/peer group). This line of reasoning imo needs to be verified.

Which is more valid? Planet destroying (Planetoids, moons, giant asteroids, etc) or actual combat feats?

Generally me thinks a little bit of everything said character is capable of.

As a mod, this is how I view things:

Both count, but at the end of the day, how you do against your peers is always going to count more than any single feat.

You destroy a planet? Great; let's see how you do in combat against the other heralds in your tier. Combat rankings are a much easier, more exact line of reasoning imo, and they, when taken over time, give us a far better idea of how powerful a character is.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Lol...

I'll see your Slade> Kyle and raise u a Spidey>Firelord

Guys, the Firelord stuff is already invalid on the board.

Originally posted by jaxthejester
Both count.

But I find combat Feats that have repetition (i.e.- not "one off" showings, but repetitive CONSISTENT performance) are the Gold Standard for really placing a character.

A big reason for me to pick this as my preferred weighing mechanism is based in the visual style variations of (primarily) Marvel and DC.

Note: The following is my opinion based on my view of industry "averages"; and I know that exceptions certainly apply. 😉

Marvel tends to be more "combat feat" rooted for its higher end Feats. Sure, there are "Splash Page Moments" from time to time, but planet pushing is not a typical means for a Marvel Write/Artist to express the power level of their Earth-Bound Herald Class characters.
Or put simply- A character does not need to literally "push a planet" for me to know that they are capable of pushing a planet. Simply (repetitively) matching strength with other foes that themselves have pushed planets is enough to make the basic deduction.
Hulk rarely (for example) blows up a planet. But he has a VERY long history of "consistently" matching well in combat against foes that are obvious planet poppers (such as Thor, Gladiator, Hyperion, etc).
Thus I could deduce that Hulk was a Herald Class Striker waaaaaay before Pak had him pop a planet.
Marvel just tends to be more combat oriented, IMHO, when it comes to showing how its "Supermen" size up against each other.

DC, by contrast, seems far more liberal with its over the top "Splash Page" non-combat visuals.
Wonder Woman, MM, and Supes tugging a planet using a giant chain... this is more of a DC medium than a Marvel medium. Again- I get that exceptions apply.
But overall; we are far more likely to see Superman push a planet than, say, Sentry or Gladiator. This doesn't mean that Gladiator is not capable of pushing a planet (Gladiator matched up almost identically with Hyperion in a grapple, and Hyperion is now famous for planet catching).

As long a character shows me consistent ability to match up with Planet Pushing Star Smashers in combat, then I don't require a separate Splash Page Picture of them also pushing a Planet of their own.

Common sense and repetitive comparative combat analysis are a better indicator for me.
After all... both Superman and Black Adam can push a planet. But it's not until you see them lock up with each other a few times that one can truly tell which of them is stronger than the other.

Nice thread! 🙂

Characters power levels fluctuate in comics depending on the story and plot. Hulk matching Gladiator doesn't mean he has the strength to push or destroy a planet. This is because Gladiator didn't have planet pushing or destroying power when he fought Hulk. The same goes with other characters. Characters who can move and react at speeds greater than light have problems with beings who are not even bullet fast. And that is very consistent thing in comics, a gold standard.

So for the most part, the power levels in a forum fight can be different than the ones in a particular comic. This is because we don't allow PIS.

Originally posted by h1a8
Most combat feats are PIS. There is no gold standard for the most part. Thing has went toe to toe with Namor as almost peers but Namor has went toe to toe with Hulk, Thor, etc.

Characters power levels fluctuate in comics depending on the story and plot. Hulk matching Gladiator doesn't mean he has the strength to push or destroy a planet. This is because Gladiator didn't have planet pushing or destroying power when he fought Hulk. The same goes with other characters. Characters who can move and react at speeds greater than light have problems with beings who are not even bullet fast. And that is very consistent thing in comics, a gold standard.

So for the most part, the power levels in a forum fight can be different than the ones in a particular comic. This is because we don't allow PIS.

We DO however use CIS. So Gladiator, not being a killer, doesn't go around shattering every opponent he faces like he did that planet. Ditto with Superman. Were they incapable during that fight? Yes, because their mental states act as a limiter. They hold back. Bloodlusted is another matter.

Superboy Prime, however? Does.

I lean toward combat feats. I have a definite bias against planetbusting (goes along with surviving supernovas and black holes). Although I know it's ridiculous to apply RL physics to comics, whenever I see a character bust a planet (especially with a single punch or blast), I take it as an over-the-top, done-for-effect feat because of the sheer amount of power required to explode a planet (minimally, 500x what the Sun puts out per second). Unless it's been well established that a character (eg, Galactus) has that much power, planetbusting is an outlier feat, imho (same with surviving supernovas or black holes).

Both are valid with enough logic and common sense.

Wow. Respectfully, a lot of you don't seem to 'get' comics.

You can't try to filter the PIS out of comics. Comics ARE PIS. The relative rankings of characters are much more important and ingrained in comic 'reality' than what characters 'should' be capable of based on their powers and feats.

Remember, without PIS, most of the physically-based characters would be very low on the food chain. But comics has always been about extolling physical characters whose powers resemble augmented human abilities.

Essentially, feats are virtually 100% irrelevant with respect to their objective or empirically measured magnitude. Writers don't really care much about the implications of their space cheese and other big feats. The only time a feat tells you much is when one character is able to do something that another character cannot. And only then when it is happening under the same writer in the same arc.

Relative showings, combat results, comparative comments, etc. tell you where characters stand. Feats don't matter.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Wow. Respectfully, a lot of you don't seem to 'get' comics.

You can't try to filter the PIS out of comics. Comics ARE PIS. The relative rankings of characters are much more important and ingrained in comic 'reality' than what characters 'should' be capable of based on their powers and feats.

Remember, without PIS, most of the physically-based characters would be very low on the food chain. But comics has always been about extolling physical characters whose powers resemble augmented human abilities.

Essentially, feats are virtually 100% irrelevant with respect to their objective or empirically measured magnitude. Writers don't really care much about the implications of their space cheese and other big feats. The only time a feat tells you much is when one character is able to do something that another character cannot. And only then when it is happening under the same writer in the same arc.

Relative showings, combat results, comparative comments, etc. tell you where characters stand. Feats don't matter.

So if you can't/don't filter it out.....

Where would you stand on Firelord/Spidey, Panther/Surfer et al?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So if you can't/don't filter it out.....

Where would you stand on Firelord/Spidey, Panther/Surfer et al?

Panther/Surfer didn't happen...the Firelord and Spiderman showing has happened too many times for anyone to call it PIS. It's what Spiderman does. Look at the Masterson showing, look st his showing against a pissed Absorbing man. It's too consistent. Spiderman strength fluctuates anyways. The guy was punching holes in Ironman armor as if he was punching through paper.

Comics are inconsistent--even when just dealing with relative showings, comments, etc. (Although these are a model of consistency compared to empirical measurements of feats)

Spidey vs. Firelord is just an outlier. This stuff happens. You can average them out, or just kind of ignore the outliers the way figure skating used to drop the highest and lowest scores.

But what makes Spidey vs. Firelord an outlier is not the fact that Firelord has incinerated continents, but rather that Firelord has typically and normally shown strength and raw power in Thor's league.

So Spidey is a herald buster?

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Comics are inconsistent--even when just dealing with relative showings, comments, etc. (Although these are a model of consistency compared to empirical measurements of feats)

Spidey vs. Firelord is just an outlier. This stuff happens. You can average them out, or just kind of ignore the outliers the way figure skating used to drop the highest and lowest scores.

But what makes Spidey vs. Firelord an outlier is not the fact that Firelord has incinerated continents, but rather that Firelord has typically and normally shown strength and raw power in Thor's league.

See Masterson Thor/Spidey as per carver's comments, additionally note his showing against Phoenix 5 Colossus and Magik (he got beaten, sure, but he wasn't smeared into paste).

Ignoring it as an outlier throws up further problems, though. Flash, for example, has only thrown an IMP once. Twice, if you count his 'I'm hitting with the mass of a white dwarf star' comment. Do we ignore that as well?

Am just curious.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So Spidey is a herald buster?

Not a Herald buster, I just think his powerset allows him to hang with most and sometimes beat them, in time. It's like a child vs a grown man. Of course the hits from a kid will not drop someone at his prime but if it's consistent and coming at that person at a rapid/fast pace...it will take it's toll and that is what happened during every scene I brought up....Spiderman speed blitzed them until he wore them out.

Look at Wolverine...his powerset allows him to do better against bricks that teams/Heralds are having fits against. It's just how it is and it honestly makes sense imo.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
See Masterson Thor/Spidey as per carver's comments, additionally note his showing against Phoenix 5 Colossus and Magik (he got beaten, sure, but he wasn't smeared into paste).

Ignoring it as an outlier throws up further problems, though. Flash, for example, has only thrown an IMP once. Twice, if you count his 'I'm hitting with the mass of a white dwarf star' comment. Do we ignore that as well?

Am just curious.

Colossus was holding back and admitted he didn't want to kill Spiderman. The stuff you are naming have circumstances.

It's not a science. But yeah, things that only happen once or twice and don't get picked up by multiple writers tend to disappear from a character's repertoire. Superman, for example, can't really be expected to whip out T-Vo anymore, etc.

Originally posted by carver9
Not a Herald buster, I just think his powerset allows him to hang with most and sometimes beat them, in time. It's like a child vs a grown man. Of course the hits from a kid will not drop someone at his prime but if it's consistent and coming at that person at a rapid/fast pace...it will take it's toll and that is what happened during every scene I brought up....Spiderman speed blitzed them until he wore them out.

Look at Wolverine...his powerset allows him to do better against bricks that teams/Heralds are having fits against. It's just how it is and it honestly makes sense imo.

True....but the Firelord example is different, as he's not just a brick. He has his own superspeed as well, right? Plus, durability showings far far above being punched by the proportional strength of a spider.