Originally posted by Sin I AM
Other than Otto/Norman is there any PP villian that would be considered crafty or a genius?
Depends on the area you have in mind
Kingpin (Crime / Scheming)
Jackal (Science / Scheming)
Morbius (Science)
Alistair Smythe (Science)
Mr. Negative (Crime)
Lizard (Science) (Depending on incarnation)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except....the comic made it explicitly clear that it was because of Sentry, lol.
......That didn't stop Doom from making his own plans:
Moreover, the one time Osborne said no to Doom, this happened, lol:
Doom utterly humiliated Osbourne in combat.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I got it wrong.It wasn't the Sentry. It was the Void:
Not that it helped him.
In Dark Avengers 14 Norman Osborn is screaming at the top his lungs telling Sentry...I mean The Void to calm down cos if he doesn't Dr Doom will kill him. Now if Osborn thinks that Dr Doom can kill The Void I'm pretty sure Dr Doom thinks he can as well.
I don't think there is any quote of any of those major supervillains saying that they are scared cos Norman is the head of HAMMER but do I need it? What you're saying is:
Having vast resources + army of well trained agents + vast amount of hi tech weapons + plus team of supervillains (sure he can get more or and other superheroes to work for him) = nothing
That don't make no sense. Not to mention that at that time he was trusted by the public. How much trouble do you think Norman could make for Doom if he just got on TV and said that Dr Doom was a threat and that America needed to invade Latveria? Or Norman got on TV and mentioned one of those other guys and put them in a bad light?
Fact of the matter is that the reason why they agreed to meet with him was because had a lot of power and influence. If he was just a regular guy with The Sentry all of those guys probably have means to possibly take The Sentry out or at least to go into hiding. Even if he didn't have The Sentry when you have that much power and influence it helps to at least work with that person to an extent and Norman didn't get that power from Tne Sentry he got it through scheming.
Also I'm not arguing against Doom having his own plans or Norman getting owned by him in the end. My point is it's a big deal that they even go together in the first place. I could also say that if it wasn't for Norman's help Dr Doom would have gotten killed during Dark reign.
Originally posted by Deadline
In Dark Avengers 14 Norman Osborn is screaming at the top his lungs telling Sentry...I mean The Void to calm down cos if he doesn't Dr Doom will kill him. Now if Osborn thinks that Dr Doom can kill The Void I'm pretty sure Dr Doom thinks he can as well.I don't think there is any quote of any of those major supervillains saying that they are scared cos Norman is the head of HAMMER but do I need it? What you're saying is:
Having vast resources + army of well trained agents + vast amount of hi tech weapons + plus team of supervillains (sure he can get more or and other superheroes to work for him) = nothing
That don't make no sense. Not to mention that at that time he was trusted by the public. How much trouble do you think Norman could make for Doom if he just got on TV and said that Dr Doom was a threat and that America needed to invade Latveria? Or Norman got on TV and mentioned one of those other guys and put them in a bad light?
Fact of the matter is that the reason why they agreed to meet with him was because had a lot of power and influence. If he was just a regular guy with The Sentry all of those guys probably have means to possibly take The Sentry out or at least to go into hiding. Even if he didn't have The Sentry when you have that much power and influence it helps to at least work with that person to an extent and Norman didn't get that power from Tne Sentry he got it through scheming.
Also I'm not arguing against Doom having his own plans or Norman getting owned by him in the end. My point is it's a big deal that they even go together in the first place. I could also say that if it wasn't for Norman's help Dr Doom would have gotten killed during Dark reign.
I don't know where you get the idea that Sentry isn't smart? In Dark Reign he was being severely affected by his mental health, and the fact that Norman was feeding him a serum that intentionally destabilised him. Norman could say any character would kill you and Robert likely would have stopped. He was trying to keep Bob stable to a point so of course his plans wouldn't go awry but he was specifically destabilising him.
So it isn't anything to do with him "not being smart", he's actually an intelligent character. Not gonna say he's on Dooms level or anything because he isn't. Combine the face that Sentry also dealt with Doom on more than one occasion quite easily.
Originally posted by Deadline
In Dark Avengers 14 Norman Osborn is screaming at the top his lungs telling Sentry...I mean The Void to calm down cos if he doesn't Dr Doom will kill him. Now if Osborn thinks that Dr Doom can kill The Void I'm pretty sure Dr Doom thinks he can as well.I don't think there is any quote of any of those major supervillains saying that they are scared cos Norman is the head of HAMMER but do I need it? What you're saying is:
Having vast resources + army of well trained agents + vast amount of hi tech weapons + plus team of supervillains (sure he can get more or and other superheroes to work for him) = nothing
That don't make no sense. Not to mention that at that time he was trusted by the public. How much trouble do you think Norman could make for Doom if he just got on TV and said that Dr Doom was a threat and that America needed to invade Latveria? Or Norman got on TV and mentioned one of those other guys and put them in a bad light?
Fact of the matter is that the reason why they agreed to meet with him was because had a lot of power and influence. If he was just a regular guy with The Sentry all of those guys probably have means to possibly take The Sentry out or at least to go into hiding. Even if he didn't have The Sentry when you have that much power and influence it helps to at least work with that person to an extent and Norman didn't get that power from Tne Sentry he got it through scheming.
Also I'm not arguing against Doom having his own plans or Norman getting owned by him in the end. My point is it's a big deal that they even go together in the first place. I could also say that if it wasn't for Norman's help Dr Doom would have gotten killed during Dark reign.
Except the comics literally spell it out. Doom defeats Norman in combat, and tells him that he will do nothing against Doom. Norman brings up the very point you make - that Doom is declaring war against the USA etc.
Doom's response? That Norman would be entering into an unwinnable war. And that the next time they meet, he wouldn't be so forgiving.
IOW:
Having vast resources + army of well trained agents + vast amount of hi tech weapons + plus team of supervillains (sure he can get more or and other superheroes to work for him) = nothing. At least, to Doom.
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
I don't know where you get the idea that Sentry isn't smart? In Dark Reign he was being severely affected by his mental health, and the fact that Norman was feeding him a serum that intentionally destabilised him. Norman could say any character would kill you and Robert likely would have stopped.
Heres the problem we got you just stated that Sentry was quite an intelligent character and knew that Osborn was trying to manipulate him but you're assuming that the only reason why he stopped was because of the drugs. Now if The Sentry knew what Osborn was doing how do you know he stopped because of the drugs? The answer is that you can't say for sure. I actually didn't remember that he had had been drugged but you're not helping yourself by pointing out that Sentry knew what he was doing. You're entitled to your opinion but if you can't see the problem with you're argument I'm done with this point.
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
He was trying to keep Bob stable to a point so of course his plans wouldn't go awry but he was specifically destabilising him.
Originally posted by One_Angry_ScotThen mission complete he's stopped/manipulated, what does he then do, tell Bullseye to kill Lindy.
Defintiely trying to keep him stable...
Scot this is what I said
Originally posted by Deadline
In Dark Avengers 14 Norman Osborn is screaming at the top his lungs telling Sentry...I mean The Void to calm down
I'm not even going to elaborate, just read it again.
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
So it isn't anything to do with him "not being smart", he's actually an intelligent character. Not gonna say he's on Dooms level or anything because he isn't. Combine the face that Sentry also dealt with Doom on more than one occasion quite easily.
Contradicitng yourself. At any rate it's irrelevent that Sentry has handled Doom before. I know at least I think in Mighty Avengers Sentry owned Doom and Tony specifically said to Doom if you don't stop messing with Sentry Sentry would kill him. I'm obvioulsy not talking about a 1 on 1 confrontation I'm talking about prep.and Norman was obviously talking about prep as well. That's why Norman mentioned Tony, Reed and Doom what all those guys have in common is that they're all science genuises.
So Sentry is smart enough to figure out that Norman is trying to manipulate him but he's not smart enough to figure out that those guys are capable of building stuff to kill him? Doesn't Sentry know Reed? So Sentry isn't smart enough to figure out why he's mentioning Reed and Doom together.
Even if you want to argue that Sentry didn't think Doom could kill him I think Norman does. You also have to bare in mind I'm not saying that Norman is saying that it would be easy but at some point down the line one of those guys will find a way.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except the comics literally spell it out. Doom defeats Norman in combat, and tells him that he will do nothing against Doom. Norman brings up the very point you make - that Doom is declaring war against the USA etc.Doom's response? That Norman would be entering into an unwinnable war. And that the next time they meet, he wouldn't be so forgiving.
IOW:
Having vast resources + army of well trained agents + vast amount of hi tech weapons + plus team of supervillains (sure he can get more or and other superheroes to work for him) = nothing. At least, to Doom.
No it doesn't. You're also contradicting yourself. If were going to take you're argument at face value that means that Doom didn't even see the Void as a threat, which is what you've been arguing.
Doom talks that way to everybody so that doesn't mean anything, I wouldn't be suprised if he's talked that way to Galactus. The fact of the matter is that if it wasn't for Norman Doom would have died because Morgan Le Fay was trying to kill Doom. Bare in mind Sentry got taken out during the battle so both Norman and Doom had to come up with a plan to stop Morgan Le Fay. Not to mention the Mighty Avengers raided Latveria and nearly defeated Doom and I think during that arc Doom was genuinely scared. Yes Sentry was involved during the raid but he didn't do it on his own. So despite Doom beating him that doesn't negate what Norman could do.
The argument isn't wether Doom is capable of beating Norman the argument is that Norman is a threat and even without The Sentry he obviously was.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Norman barely held it together. Everyone was pretty much waiting for him to crack while sticking it to the heros. The only smart thing he did iirc was capitalise off the breakdown of CW and idiocy of SI.
Helping save Doom's life, killing The Punisher? Lead a team of superheroes think he saved the earth a couple of times.
Barely holding it together? Whatever. It's still impressive what he did.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Lol without Sentry Norman would have gotten wrecked. Cant be serious. He was his own personal nuke.
Wanna elaborate on what circumstance you're refering to? He did lots of stuff without Sentry...
EDIT: I even gave an example...
Sentry was the ace in Ozzy's sleeve, that was established clearly as ****.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/40/1018645-_10.jpg
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https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/40/1157239-prv4656_pg3.jpg
Not really following this convo because of too much text just saw Sin's short readable post.
Originally posted by Parmaniac
Sentry was the ace in Ozzy's sleeve, that was established clearly as ****.https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/40/1018645-_10.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/40/1018644-image.png
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/40/1157239-prv4656_pg3.jpg
Not really following this convo because of too much text just saw Sin's short readable post.
Ok not sure I'm going to disagree with that but Sentry didn't kill The Punisher, Daken did. In fact when Sentry encountered The Punisher he got away. It also wasn't Sentry that saved Dooms life.
Originally posted by Deadline
Helping save Doom's life, killing The Punisher? Lead a team of superheroes think he saved the earth a couple of times.Barely holding it together? Whatever. It's still impressive what he did.
Wanna elaborate on what circumstance you're refering to? He did lots of stuff without Sentry...
EDIT: I even gave an example...
He didn't kill Punisher. Daken did.
Norman during Dark Reign was consistently falling under the influence of his Goblin persona. The only reason he was able to have the appearance of control is because he kept Sentry on a leash. That's what I'm getting at...if you take Sentry out of the equation he would have been killed or beaten long before Siege. Hell given Ares perfomance during Siege he could've done it himself.
I mean look at his Cabal roster. Doom didn't follow him, neither did Namor, neither did Frost...Loki only cared to sew mischief and Hood is just a criminal who got lucky.
Granted Norman did use the death of the Skrull Queen to propel himself to that level of power. But once there it was a tenuous hold at best. Only reason it lasted so long was the impact from civil war and shields dismantlement.
Originally posted by Deadline
No it doesn't. You're also contradicting yourself. If were going to take you're argument at face value that means that Doom didn't even see the Void as a threat, which is what you've been arguing.
Doom talks that way to everybody so that doesn't mean anything, I wouldn't be suprised if he's talked that way to Galactus.
The fact of the matter is that if it wasn't for Norman Doom would have died because Morgan Le Fay was trying to kill Doom. Bare in mind Sentry got taken out during the battle so both Norman and Doom had to come up with a plan to stop Morgan Le Fay. Not to mention the Mighty Avengers raided Latveria and nearly defeated Doom and I think during that arc Doom was genuinely scared. Yes Sentry was involved during the raid but he didn't do it on his own. So despite Doom beating him that doesn't negate what Norman could do.
And it is interesting that you mention the incident with Morgan Le Fay. Doom says how Norman only got to his position by sheer luck - and Norman agrees:
So no, he's not skilled, or a physical, technological, or even psychological threat to Doom. The only time he went up against Doom, his home was trashed, all his buddies fled, and none of his resources were of any use. The only big stick he had - Void - WAS a threat, but I NEVER said it wasn't.
The argument isn't wether Doom is capable of beating Norman the argument is that Norman is a threat and even without The Sentry he obviously was.
Even Parker Robbins, the weaseliest of the Cabal, only fled because Loki told him to:
Osborne commanded nothing of any consequence, except the Void/Sentry. He's the equivalent of that snotty kid in the playground whose big brother is a Marine MMA champion - no one would touch him, but that says nothing about the kid.
Osborn stepped his game significantly, but he's not a REAL big league player on the large MCU scale. That was made abundantly clear.
Loki was manipulating him through the entire Dark Reign saga, and through him, the Sentry for his own means. Doom is a lot more prideful than Loki, so he used a more brute force tactic, but it was still clear, that Reynolds was literally the only reason Osborn had the balls to step into a room with any of the Cabal members such as Doom, Loki or Namor.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Osborn stepped his game significantly, but he's not a REAL big league player on the large MCU scale. That was made abundantly clear.Loki was manipulating him through the entire Dark Reign saga, and through him, the Sentry for his own means. Doom is a lot more prideful than Loki, so he used a more brute force tactic, but it was still clear, that Reynolds was literally the only reason Osborn had the balls to step into a room with any of the Cabal members such as Doom, Loki or Namor.
👆
When Norman told Namor to do something he didn't want to, he just told him to go phuck himself:
..........
And once again, nothing that Osbournne could do.
Hell, this is how much respect the Cabal give to him, his resources, HAMMER etc:
Parker wouldn't even give him the time of day.
