Revan/Bane v. Mace/Yoda

Started by Intrepid3711 pages
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yoda or Dooku or even Sidious have more mastery than Skywalker (who has more raw power).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In each of these cases, Force mastery has the edge if not the stomp in victory, assuming it is coupled with at least near-comparable power. Yoda and Sidious have enough mastery and sufficient power to defeat Skywalker.

Again, there's a difference. I was referencing Revan's mastery as superior because of his versatility, whereas Yoda and Palpatine's superior mastery over Anakin not only comes from their versatility but their mastery over raw telekinetic power (which Revan doesn't have). They possess superior raw power, mastery and versatility over Anakin; Revan lacks Mace's raw power.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Revan isn't a pure Sith, and as such, doesn't have the same inherent weaknesses as say, Sidious.

Vaapad would never help Mace regardless of Revan being a pure Sith or not, so this is agreeable.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. Shatterpoints aren't reliable enough to constitute victory. In fact, when faced with peers or superiors who weren't Dark Side, it did not net him victory (Jedi Master Dooku, Yoda).

Shatterpoint has never helped Mace, to my knowledge, without outside interference.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
3. Revan's more esoteric range of powers and such is a plus. PT era Jedi seldom use anything more than precog, speed, and TK, and the saber is their primary means of dispatching foes.

Revan's versatility as a Force wielder would just about never help him against Mace (I take it we are arguing Revan versus Mace). His feats with Absorption are irrelevant when Mace does not know lightning, and while Revan does know Drain (which Mace is susceptible to), he has no feats with it (and Bane, who learned the technique from Revan's holocron, pointed out that Drain was extremely hard to use in combat).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
4. Revan's dueling record is very solid. Defeated Yusanis, Malak twice (once while Malak was amped by the Star Forge and the collective energy of several captured Jedi Knights). Mandalore. Bandon (who had killed many Jedi according to his official bio). Nyriss. In an age when Sith numbered in the thousands and warred actively with Jedi, he was head and shoulders above them all.

Mace's feats are noticeably better. He has fought evenly with Tyranus, fought evenly with Bulq, driven off Ventress, fought evenly with Grievous, sparred evenly with Saesee Tiin, etc. By Attack of the Clones, he was the second best duelist in the Order, and as of Revenge of the Sith, he was among the five most skilled swordsmen at the time.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
5. It took the collective group of four champions of the Empire to defeat him in an epic fight: the Sith Warrior (who has a ton of dueling feats well above their station and is a master of the blade), the Sith Inquisitor (a Force prodigy with amped power), the Bounty Hunter (muggle, but a tough one despite it. Ask Neph, he has a boner for her), and the Agent. Again, during the fight, Revan chucks meteors to augment the fierce defense he's already giving the group.

I have no idea what to say about the strike team that beat Revan; so no comment.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Indeed?

Multiple huge meteors while fighting 4 people (and after an extended battle) >>> Mace pushing a tank after concentrating and at rest. There were a lot of meteors, Revan was holding off 4 people and he'd been fighting for a while already.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace also has other showings, such as obliterating droids with a Force push, crushing droids with doors, lifting multiple trees, etc. His feats seem at least marginally better to me.

I'm unaware of the tree one or him crushing droids with doors.

Revan threw a huge stone slab extremely quickly and collapsed an archway in Revan.

Also, Revan can counter Mace's Shatterpoint with his advanced Battle Precognition.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Multiple huge meteors while fighting 4 people (and after an extended battle) >>> Mace pushing a tank after concentrating and at rest. There were a lot of meteors, Revan was holding off 4 people and he'd been fighting for a while already.

Revan weren't throwing the meteors at the same time though, was he?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan threw a huge stone slab extremely quickly and collapsed an archway in Revan.

I'm well aware of the archway, but I don't remember the stone slab. Do you have a quote=

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Revan weren't throwing the meteors at the same time though, was he?

I'm well aware of the archway, but I don't remember the stone slab. Do you have a quote=

Yeah, pretty much. Not all at the same time, but if you watch the video at around 5.50:

YouTube video

Its obvious he's pulling multiple ones at a time. Plus I don't believe it matters. Pulling them in succession is still an amazing feat.

"Veela and the other two survivors scrambled back into the passage near the chamber entrance, ducking out of sight around the corner to regroup. A second later a trio of grenades skittered across the floor, bouncing and rolling to a stop near the base of the sarcophagus.

The instant before they detonated, Revan reached out with the Force and hurled the heavy stone lid of the sarcophagus toward the grenades. It acted as a shield, absorbing the worst of the blast before exploding into pebbles and dust."

He threw it in an instant.

Mace and Yoda win handily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, pretty much. Not all at the same time, but if you watch the video at around 5.50:

YouTube video

Its obvious he's pulling multiple ones at a time. Plus I don't believe it matters. Pulling them in succession is still an amazing feat.

"Veela and the other two survivors scrambled back into the passage near the chamber entrance, ducking out of sight around the corner to regroup. A second later a trio of grenades skittered across the floor, bouncing and rolling to a stop near the base of the sarcophagus.

The instant before they detonated, Revan reached out with the Force and hurled the heavy stone lid of the sarcophagus toward the grenades. It acted as a shield, absorbing the worst of the blast before exploding into pebbles and dust."

He threw it in an instant.

I forgot about the slab, and those meteors are coming down more rapidly than I remember.

It's a nice showing, but not better than Mace's.

Yes it is.

No, it isn't. I see none bigger than an AT-TE, and metal almost certainly weighs more than whatever the meteors consists of.

Except that the tank is hollowed out to allow transport and stuff whereas the meteors are solid rock.

Also Mace was concentrating and amping himself up for a few seconds before he moved it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that the tank is hollowed out to allow transport and stuff whereas the meteors are solid rock.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also Mace was concentrating and amping himself up for a few seconds before he moved it.

So, basically what you're saying is...

4x4 boulder with little difficulty >>> 13x5 tank with moderate difficulty.

😐

I'd say so. Revan was hurling multiple meteors at very vast speeds in rapid succession while in the middle of a duel. That requires not only incredible power but control as well. Mace, by contrast, took some time and concentration to push an AT-TE off a cliff. Nothing to scoff at, surely. But it doesn't come off as nearly as impressive.

Of course, Windu's micro-series feats are on an entirely different scale than either. But that's a different discussion.

In that case, Yoda sends everyone into orbit.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So, basically what you're saying is...

4x4 boulder with little difficulty >>> 13x5 tank with moderate difficulty.

😐

More like dozens of 6x4 boulders over a minute, 2 or 3 at a time while fending off 4 attackers and after already engaging in a lengthy duel, with little difficulty >>> 13x5 tank with moderate difficulty and charge time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
More like dozens of 6x4 boulders over a minute,

What does the speed of it have to do with the amount of power necessary to operate the feat in question?

Originally posted by Nephthys
2 or 3 at a time while fending off 4 attackers

It never looked as if multiple were thrown at the same time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and after already engaging in a lengthy duel,

Mace was hardly ''fresh'', either.

edit: read it wrong

That... was convincing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What does the speed of it have to do with the amount of power necessary to operate the feat in question?

It never looked as if multiple were thrown at the same time.

Mace was hardly ''fresh'', either.

Continuously exerting yourself is very difficult. In some ways its more difficult than doing so in a bigger way for a shorter time. Throwing a large rock is hard. Throwing 20 smaller rocks in a minute is probably even harder.

Look again.

Yes he was. He'd just climbed out of a tank. He was fully rested.

edit