Well you could admit that I'm right in everything I said:
1. The HoT and Barsen'thor are a clear cut above any NSW Jedi.
2. The Jedi of the TOR era are badass, well-versed in war and well trained.
3. A deep understanding of the Force leads to a deep connection to the Force.
4. The Sith Brotherhood ignored the past of their order and were weakened by it.
5. The Sith of the TOR era are badass, the millions of them are millions who are strong and the Dark Council makes the Brotherhood leaders look like laughable, limp-wristed feebs.
6. In a war, the TOR Sith would crush the Brotherhood.
7. And most importantly, you don't actually have the quotes of Lord Hoth cutting down dozens of Sith because he never actually does that.
1. HoT hasn't been proven to have defeated the real, fully powered Vitiate, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are special circumstances in Barsen'thor defeating the Sith who was drawing off of a hundred Jedi Masters (thx for the spoilers btw jerk).
2. Not as well versed as NSW.
3. If you acknowledge that the NSW Jedi and Sith, being at war, would have had widespread tutelage of the techniques/understanding that are effective in JvS war, and that the knowledge would have survived via the memebrs of the orders, and not have simply been unused and stored away.
4. Only in the sense of diluting their power over many. In such a case, ToR is even weaker.
7. He does.
1. Regardless if he did or not, the HoT is confirmed many times to be the strongest Jedi of the era (which automatically put him above any NSW Jedi given the likes of the Barsen'thor, Satale Shan, Tol Braga, Jaric Kaeden etc) has a ton of other great victories and feats and still fought through an entire city of soldiers, the Imperial Guard and defeated Vitiate. The only reason I haven't proven that it was either the real Vitiate or that the Voice is identical in terms of power is my reluctance to go into details due to spoilers. If you really want to see how powerful the Jedi Knight actually is just read my Respect thread. Oh wait, you conveniently can't because it has spoilers. And there are no circumstances favoring the Barsen'thor defeating Vivicar. In fact, the Barsen'thor was greatly weakened at the time and had to fight through an entire star destroyer to get to him and perform some straineous Force feats. She is a fawking boss. Did you even see some of her Force feats? Shes amazing.
2. In your opinion, though I will take that as a concession that I am right about them being good.
3. No. My point actually has support from examples of it being seen in practice. Yours has nothing supporting the idea at all.
4. Revan and all the ancient Sith Lords did the same yet Bane worshipped them. And no it is not only in that sense. Its in the sense I said it was.
5 + 6. I'll take your silence as a concession.
7. Prove it. Post the quotes.
1. We will reconvene once I have completed the class storylines sweetie pie.
2. They are good, just not as good, and their numbers are def. working against them (though working for the Jedi).
3. Assuming that they're not complete idiots, it wouldn't make sense not to do widespread tutelage of the knowledge that is effective in JvS wartime.
4. Revan per his teachings did not which is what Bane was inspired by. The Revan holocron explicitly states that there should just be 2.
5. Your opinion.
6. Don't care, and probably not. Hard to argue as we don't have exact numbers for NSW Jedi and Sith armies, but the conflict was just as big and the recruitment for Jedi and Sith would have been of even greater importance. Plus advances in tech.
7. I will get back to you on this later darling.
1. All of them? Thats gonna take a fawking long time bro. Trust me, I've completed 6 of them and I'm nearly done with the other 2 and it took over a year.
2. We're talking about the Jedi. About the Sith though their numbers are definitely NOT working against them. Considering we still have Most Powerful Sith Lord up to that point Vitiate and Darths "Shielded A Capital Ship From Destruction" Jadus, "Owned a Jedi Who Just Destroyed Two Buildings with TK" Malgus, "More Effective Than a Planetary Shield" Marr, "Literally As Powerful As 5 Ancient Sith Lords Put Together" Nox and the "Mindcontrol Armies and Destroy Entire Fleets" Dread Masters on top of numerous other powerful Sith I could mention. On top AGAIN of millions of extremely powerful Sith that I can prove via quotes are powerful. So basically cool story bro, but the Sith numbers didn't hinder them at all.
3. Other than if they had to rush Jedi training due to needing them on the field sooner. You know, like if they were sending untrained children into battle or something.
4. Yet Revan was still extremely powerful despite having his own army of Sith on top of Vitiates empire of millions of them chilling out in Deep Space. There seems to be exactly zero weakening through large numbers.
5. My fact that is backed up by the facts that I am presenting to you.
6. Doesn't matter. Vitiates Empire has at least 2 probably more fleet-destroying weapons. They have numerous Sith Lords who put the NSW ones to shame. Numerous Superweapons. Completely access to galactic information through two separate sources etc. And we have enough for an estimate for the NSW Jedi and Sith numbers since they all gathered for the battle on Ruusan and there DEFINITELY wasn't millions of them.
7. Be sure you do. With the quote.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]1. All of them? Thats gonna take a fawking long time bro. Trust me, I've completed 6 of them and I'm nearly done with the other 2 and it took over a year.
Well maybe just the Knight and Consular ones. But does it really take that long? Bear in mind I'll just be going through the class stuff only for the other characters and ignore everything else (except for the planets that I haven't done such as all the Sith ones, and Ord Mantell).
2. We're talking about the Jedi.
In that case I take back what I said, they were an order of peace loving Jedi that were taken bu surprise by the initial Sith assault and haven't had time to adjust. That they are winning or have won the war or whatever is probably more a result of the will of the force, or the great actions of a few special individuals, not a reflection of the entire orders.
About the Sith though their numbers are definitely NOT working against them. Considering we still have Most Powerful Sith Lord up to that point Vitiate and Darths "Shielded A Capital Ship From Destruction" Jadus, "Owned a Jedi Who Just Destroyed Two Buildings with TK" Malgus, "More Effective Than a Planetary Shield" Marr, "Literally As Powerful As 5 Ancient Sith Lords Put Together" Nox and the "Mindcontrol Armies and Destroy Entire Fleets" Dread Masters on top of numerous other powerful Sith I could mention. On top AGAIN of millions of extremely powerful Sith that I can prove via quotes are powerful. So basically cool story bro, but the Sith numbers didn't hinder them at all.
That they as a whole have reduced access to the darkside due to mass dilution among their numbers doesn't mean that they can't have powerful darksiders, those darksiders simply would have been even more powerful if there had been fewer numbers. But this isn't a fair comparison anyway, we don't know the best that the NSW had to offer.
3. Other than if they had to rush Jedi training due to needing them on the field sooner. You know, like if they were sending untrained children into battle or something.
This was only at the end of the war, and it's made clear that these are new emasures amde out of desperation numerous times in the book and comic.
6. Doesn't matter. Vitiates Empire has at least 2 probably more fleet-destroying weapons. They have numerous Sith Lords who put the NSW ones to shame. Numerous Superweapons. Completely access to galactic information through two separate sources etc. And we have enough for an estimate for the NSW Jedi and Sith numbers since they all gathered for the battle on Ruusan and there DEFINITELY wasn't millions of them.
Proof? And that was at the war's end. NSW was a thousand year long conflict, it may have been drastically different in the middle of the conflict for example.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Well maybe just the Knight and Consular ones. But does it really take that long? Bear in mind I'll just be going through the class stuff only for the other characters and ignore everything else (except for the planets that I haven't done such as all the Sith ones, and Ord Mantell).
Well you'll need to do side quests and planetary missions to keep up with levels and get gear otherwise you'll have trouble.
So can we maybe instead talk about the Sith characters? They're almost as powerful as the Jedi imo. The Inquisitor in particular does some insane stuff.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
In that case I take back what I said, they were an order of peace loving Jedi that were taken by surprise by the initial Sith assault and haven't had time to adjust. That they are winning or have won the war or whatever is probably more a result of the will of the force, or the great actions of a few special individuals, not a reflection of the entire orders.
Nah bro. I posted tons of proof indicating that the Jedi are hardly hippies with lightsabers. They've had plenty of freaking time to adjust. Do you even know the history of the war in TOR? The Sith attacked then the Great War was 40 years long. Then there was a 10 year rebuilding process until war breaks out again in the game.
The Jedi are winning the war because an army of Jedi pushed back the Sith on
Spoiler:under only the supervision of
Corellia
Spoiler:It isn't just the actions of a few heroes.
the Hero of Tython.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
That they as a whole have reduced access to the darkside due to mass dilution among their numbers doesn't mean that they can't have powerful darksiders, those darksiders simply would have been even more powerful if there had been fewer numbers. But this isn't a fair comparison anyway, we don't know the best that the NSW had to offer.
You ignored that I have two quotes spelling out that millions of the Sith were considered powerful. "Millions of the galaxies most powerful Sith were considered" for basically the second highest position in the Empire. And millions compete for the Dark Council seats. The power is not diluted at all.
Huh, we know about the best the NSW had to offer. Kopecz, Kaan, Kas'im, Qordis, Kaos Krul (why do they all begin with K or sound like it?). Who can't compare to the cream of the TOR era's Sith.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
This was only at the end of the war, and it's made clear that these are new emasures amde out of desperation numerous times in the book and comic.
That doesn't refute the point about their standards slipping and their training being lackluster.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Proof? And that was at the war's end. NSW was a thousand year long conflict, it may have been drastically different in the middle of the conflict for example.
But you're arguing that they're at their peak after a thousand years of 'refining' their skills. Are you going back on that? And all the Sith on Ruusan were gathered in a single camp. There were not millions of them.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well you'll need to do side quests and planetary missions to keep up with levels and get gear otherwise you'll have trouble.So can we maybe instead talk about the Sith characters? They're almost as powerful as the Jedi imo. The Inquisitor in particular does some insane stuff.
Nah bro. I posted tons of proof indicating that the Jedi are hardly hippies with lightsabers. They've had plenty of freaking time to adjust. Do you even know the history of the war in TOR? The Sith attacked then the Great War was 40 years long. Then there was a 10 year rebuilding process until war breaks out again in the game.
The Jedi are winning the war because an army of Jedi pushed back the Sith on
Spoiler:under only the supervision of
CorelliaSpoiler:It isn't just the actions of a few heroes.
the Hero of Tython.You ignored that I have two quotes spelling out that millions of the Sith were considered powerful. "Millions of the galaxies most powerful Sith were considered" for basically the second highest position in the Empire. And millions compete for the Dark Council seats. The power is not diluted at all.
Huh, we know about the best the NSW had to offer. Kopecz, Kaan, Kas'im, Qordis, Kaos Krul (why do they all begin with K or sound like it?). Who can't compare to the cream of the TOR era's Sith.
That doesn't refute the point about their standards slipping and their training being lackluster.
But you're arguing that they're at their peak after a thousand years of 'refining' their skills. Are you going back on that? And all the Sith on Ruusan were gathered in a single camp. There were not millions of them.
That's not all
Spoiler:
the Barsen'thor also deprives the Empire of the Children of the Emperor cutting the effectiveness of their intelligence virtually in half.