Originally posted by Stealth Moose
[B]This has nothing to do with what I was saying.You implied that the Drain could be physically dodged, even though it is never dodged in any way throughout KotOR 2. This is an unproven assertion on your part and you failed to prove it, so it can be dismissed as a possibility. Otherwise, things might have gone like this:
ANAKIN: How do I shot Dark Reaper?
ULIC: Have you tried dodging? I hear it's effective, because this ability is just like Force Lightning, which travels in a slow visible arc, and Force Push, which is TK actually shoving compressed air or something instead of actually exerting actual force on the individual, thus making it undodgable.
ANAKIN: Wait a second; why the hell would I make a Force push dodgable? The Force is a galaxy-wide presence. And if it was compressed air, why can't we see the physical effects of the displaced air? I mean, it presumably can toss a human being like a ragdoll. WTF?
ULIC: Because Star Wars writers are ****ing morons, Anakin. Now, I'm going to teach you a special ability to block the Dark Reaper, even though I never demonstrated this knowledge or ability in the primary media in which I appeared...
Game mechanics are non-canon. And if we wanna go with that. Mandalore can resist Nihilus' force drain.
You keep using this term, but I don't think you know what it means. You just think it's some catch-all defense for an ability your argument can't defeat, so you dismiss it as being impractical.Let's review the definition again:
[list]The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomenon can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful. [/list]
"Giga drain can't be beat" is a no limits fallacy. The idea that because Kreia an in verse source says 'there is no defense' and defeats three Jedi Masters with it it is unblockable is a no limits fallacy. You are literally saying there is no limit to who it can kill in the Star Wars universe.
This might make more sense if, in light of the definition, Force Drain was a shield we were saying could take infinite hits, or an ability that can murder infinite Jedi. But nobody's saying that. The ability explicitly kills Force users by not only sapping their connection to the Force but by sapping their life energy as well.
Uh no. If I say "There is no defense against this gun" and then kill three people with it. That doesn't mean no one in say a fictional universe cannot dodge/ counter it.
[list] "As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."
―Kreia[/list]
What's your point?
It's a visual representation of a potent attack. Watch it again:Hell, it's faster than the TK shown by either her or Yoda, and it's also ridiculously impossible to dodge, given that it covers the distance between them near-instantly and is made up of an arcing spider web.
Your point? Yoda and Mace push an army of droids across a much larger distance in the same time. Also Yoda tagged Sidious...who can make his arms look like 24 arms at the same time. Kreia has nothing like this.
I might give you the benefit of the doubt if this attack was ever physically dodged, but it's not.
The attack has never been used against someone as fast as Yoda, Mace, or hell even Kenobi so your point is annulled.
There you go again, assuming it's a paintball gun or something. Unless you think Yoda will be going Mach V as soon as the fight begins, and Traya cannot possibly lock on (which again, is an unsupported assumption at best; the ability is never shown requiring a lock-on and is used successfully by a blind Sith of all things) she can TK him while he's moving and force him to react or fly into a wall.
Yoda is far faster than Kreia, her TK isn't going to tag him.
Or if you want me to play dirty, then Traya can tag him easily, because Sidious tagged him with Force lightning before the guy could drop his staff. Might as well low-ball it, if you're going to be silly.
Sidious' lightning is faster than Kreia has ever displayed.
That's the point; she was explicitly above all of them. These were the same three Jedi who froze the Exile in stasis while giving her a lecture, and furthermore had a few minutes while Traya was backtalking them to formulate an offense/defense. And they still lost horribly.
Allow me to make this simpler for you. In the history of the Star Wars universe Force Drain has never been used against someone more powerful than themselves. Assuming that it will work the same way is pretty ridiculous.
So tell me, why are you believing that Yoda is inherently superior to a person who treated three Jedi Council members as Sidious treats named mooks like Fisto, Tiin, and Koth?
Because Fisto Tiin and Kolar are the most celebrated swordsmen in the Jedi Order's 25,000 year history, not 3 Jedi Council members during a time there were less than 100 students left.
Hestizo Trace begs to differ, but that's irrelevant. Neither Sidious or Yoda show the ability to uber-dodge attacks with as little telegraphy as "I wave my hand back and forth". Yoda got tagged by Sids' lightning early on, and later while I give him due credit for soaking and redirecting superior lightning, he still lost his saber and nearly his balance from the blast.
In an inferior position. Sidious outmanuvered him. Also Sidious' lightning tagging Yoda is a feat for Sidious' lightning not a negative for Yoda.
Yoda is not infallibly fast just because he can perform tons of flips. I don't think you understand this concept very well. And this all hinges on Yoda being blitz-fast, against an attack that's near-instant.
Yoda matched Sidious blow for blow and disarmed him. He is as fast or even faster than Sidious...the man who can do 24+ blows per second.
See above dialogue about the stupidity of dodging TK, but in any case, Yoda's TK is not inherently faster. It also seems likely that you're just slinging shit out there in a vague attempt to refute the facts that you don't like, because god forbid Yoda lose a fight or anything.
Lol no. TKs are faster.
For example Grievous can dodge Mook 1 and Mook 2's force push, but cannot dodge Shaak Ti's.
Possibly. It's not an issue of her being conclusively more powerful than Yoda so much as him not having the precise defense for an ability she knows, that can kill someone.
Let me say this again. Force Drain has never been shown to be capable of killing someone more powerful than the user, nor has it been shown to tag someone as fast as Yoda. So the burden of proof is on you to prove it can tag Yoda, or to show me an instance where Kreia has killed someone she
Raw power alone doesn't prevent the attack. If it did, pretty sure this means Nihilus is more powerful than a planetful of Force-users, including Vandar and co, and that sounds far more ridiculous than what you take objection to here.
That means absolutely nothing. You act as if the planetful of Force Users even knew they were being attacked.
Quite a few did. Tulak Hord, IIRC, is noted as draining Jedi, Malak used it on fallen Jedi, Vitiate used it and some of his circle may have, the ancient True Sith did (Ragnos' sceptre drains, as does Sadow's Dark Reaper), Sidious uses it via ritual in DE, and Kun used it via ritual in TSW. It seems to be an ancient art, and not well understood to most, which is why anytime someone starts using it, they immediately catapult to the top of the Sith food chain.
Not well understood is the operative phrase here. Malak had to use it on people who could not fight back. In fact that example begs the question, why didn't Malak simply drain Revan when he approached him? Why did Vitiate not just drain Revan when he walked into his throne room?
The simplest answer is that GL never intended for Sidious to possess such a power. But an EU answer would be that potentially Sidious didn't know the ability well enough to attempt it, or at that point in his life lacked the mastery of it.
Completely defeats the purpose of Sidious who was the most knowledgeable and powerful Sith Lord in history.
Ockham's Razor lends to the conclusion that either he didn't know the ability during RotS, lacked the specific knowledge to use it in combat (again, hence the later ritual), or he was afraid to use it for some unknown reason. The idea that he knew it, but didn't use it to spite himself is simply retarded and should not be entertained.
Unlikely, Plagueis knew full well that Vitiate was the closest Sith Lord in history to discovering the secret to immortality. It stands to reason he knew exactly how he reached immortality and passed that onto Sidious. This is likely where Palpatine reached his conclusion that body swapping is the way to immortality.
The Gatekeeper of the holocron didn't like Krayt. A scan here made that abundantly clear.
Nihilus spoke in a dialogue he couldn't understand.
This would imply that he communed with Ulic's ghost, since the spirit itself gave Anakin the knowledge. Again, you're reaching here. Either you have definitive proof, or you have baseless conjectures. You can't have both.
Again there was a Jedi Temple on Rhen Var. Yoda stationed Jedi on the world to protect it for a reason. And if anyone in the order did commune with Ulic's spirit it would be Yoda.
Considering she's the one who taught Nihilus to refine his drain and taught Sion and his mooks the same, I'd say her knowledge on the matter is bordering on expert.But this was a red herring in the first place. Traya would never stupidly drain Nihilus, and it was foolish to even bring it up.
Why is it ridiculous that Traya would never drain Nihilus but Nihilus would drain the Exile. Nihilus was the Lord of Hunger and the ultimate master of the technique in the Triumvirate.
Considering Tulak Hord dragged Endar Spire-sized ships out of orbit and killed whole armies of Jedi with just his cleft-face man-servant for company, I highly doubt this. You also completely missed the point of the example. [/B]
You can doubt it all you want. Tyranus is one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history, and its quite possible his cleft face man servant exaggerated his feats.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Game mechanics are non-canon. And if we wanna go with that. Mandalore can resist Nihilus' force drain.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
The use of the Drain in cutscenes is not "game mechanics". Stop using vague terms to invalidate canon which threatens your argument and be fair about things.
The Drain is used in cutscenes.
It is not dodged ever, and in fact is represented as being near-instant, or at least too fast for even Force users to simply evade.
There is nothing to suggest a proper defense besides being a wound in the Force or knowing how to emulate one.
Conclusion: Force Drain can adequately tag Yoda, who has been nearly squashed by senate pods and tagged solidly with lightning which was at least comparable in speed, if not slower.
"Giga drain can't be beat" is a no limits fallacy. The idea that because Kreia an in verse source says 'there is no defense' and defeats three Jedi Masters with it it is unblockable is a no limits fallacy. You are literally saying there is no limit to who it can kill in the Star Wars universe.
No, I'm not. You're strawmanning. I've said repeatedly that it requires a specific defense, which you have not conclusively shown Yoda to have, so it seems to be a huge leap in logic to assert that Yoda wins by virtue of... being Yoda.
The statement "Gigadrain can't be beat" which Neph said, was hyperbole. We've both acknowledged it can be beat, but you haven't demonstrated that it can be beat by Yoda.
Uh no. If I say "There is no defense against this gun" and then kill three people with it. That doesn't mean no one in say a fictional universe cannot dodge/ counter it.
Strawman.
What's your point?
To reinforce that the Sith use it to kill, not just 'make weak'.
Your point? Yoda and Mace push an army of droids across a much larger distance in the same time. Also Yoda tagged Sidious...who can make his arms look like 24 arms at the same time. Kreia has nothing like this.
Lol.
24 arms at the same time? Do you have any more hyperbolic nonsense for me? In G-canon film source material, I can visibly see Sidious, and he doesn't have 24 arms. Stop using Stover-style hyperbole to fluff up Sids in an attempt to make Yoda look better and ignore my argument.
1. You haven't shown that the Drain can be avoided.
2. Evidence doesn't even imply the possibility.
3. Yoda has been tagged by stuff slower than Traya's Drain with obvious prep and telegraphy (Senate pod, anyone?)
The attack has never been used against someone as fast as Yoda, Mace, or hell even Kenobi so your point is annulled.
No, it's not. You're just simply asserting that they are too fast and then using this unsupported assumption as grounds for ignoring a feat which you don't like.
Yoda is far faster than Kreia, her TK isn't going to tag him.
Kreia doesn't fight with Ataru. In fact, I think she badmouths it as a form in-game. In any case, her power is so good she doesn't have to flip around like a demented monkey to hammer away at people.
You are so impressed by Yoda's flippy shit that you completely ignore all the times he's tagged by stuff slower than her TK/Drain.
Sidious' lightning is faster than Kreia has ever displayed.
Proof by assertion/wishful thinkin. Rewatch the clip.
Allow me to make this simpler for you. In the history of the Star Wars universe Force Drain has never been used against someone more powerful than themselves. Assuming that it will work the same way is pretty ridiculous.
Proof by assertion. Implication that Nihilus is more powerful than billions of Force users, and Traya is more powerful than 6-10 Sith mooks and 3 Elite Jedi Masters.
There's never a correlation between raw power and resisting Force Drain.
Because Fisto Tiin and Kolar are the most celebrated swordsmen in the Jedi Order's 25,000 year history, not 3 Jedi Council members during a time there were less than 100 students left.
No, they're just survivors from the Great Sith Wars and Jedi Civil Wars, who survived the purges of Revan, Malak, and the Sith Triumvirate, masters of all of the lightsaber forms, known demostraters of Force Sever, Force Stun, Mass Force Stun, and considered great threats by their enemies.
But feel free to fluff up the competition.
In an inferior position. Sidious outmanuvered him. Also Sidious' lightning tagging Yoda is a feat for Sidious' lightning not a negative for Yoda.
Lol.
Yoda matched Sidious blow for blow and disarmed him. He is as fast or even faster than Sidious...the man who can do 24+ blows per second.
Sidious never does 24+ blows/second, ever.
Lol no. TKs are faster.
For example Grievous can dodge Mook 1 and Mook 2's force push, but cannot dodge Shaak Ti's.
Proof by assertion.
Let me say this again. Force Drain has never been shown to be capable of killing someone more powerful than the user, nor has it been shown to tag someone as fast as Yoda. So the burden of proof is on you to prove it can tag Yoda, or to show me an instance where Kreia has killed someone she
Proof by assertion. Shifting the burden of proof.
That means absolutely nothing. You act as if the planetful of Force Users even knew they were being attacked.
They did. The entire planet was aware of him when he spoke. But he was able to level most of the planet and kill all of them anyways, save for Visas whom he spared (and she was nearly dead all the same).
Not well understood is the operative phrase here. Malak had to use it on people who could not fight back. In fact that example begs the question, why didn't Malak simply drain Revan when he approached him?
Probably because Malak's ability to drain may have had to do with the Star Forge, and it was insufficient enough to drain active, fighting Jedi.
Why did Vitiate not just drain Revan when he walked into his throne room?
Why would he? Far better to mind-rape him and make him an ally.
Completely defeats the purpose of Sidious who was the most knowledgeable and powerful Sith Lord in history.
So you're disputing that GL didn't want Force Drain in the PT series? Or just assuming on behalf of your bias again?
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Unlikely, Plagueis knew full well that Vitiate was the closest Sith Lord in history to discovering the secret to immortality.
Except that Vitiate and Krayt's methods were far superior. Technically, Kun's plan almost worked, and Sadow lived for an extremely long time. Ragnos' walking stick could revive his spirit and presumably his body.
It stands to reason he knew exactly how he reached immortality and passed that onto Sidious. This is likely where Palpatine reached his conclusion that body swapping is the way to immortality.
Red herring. Relevance?
Nihilus spoke in a dialogue he couldn't understand.
The tongue of the ancient Sith. And yet Nihilus was able to impart his thoughts and instructions to Visas.
Because he wanted to do so.
Again there was a Jedi Temple on Rhen Var. Yoda stationed Jedi on the world to protect it for a reason. And if anyone in the order did commune with Ulic's spirit it would be Yoda.
But you haven't proven that he did so, at all. So it remains an unproven assertion.
Why is it ridiculous that Traya would never drain Nihilus but Nihilus would drain the Exile. Nihilus was the Lord of Hunger and the ultimate master of the technique in the Triumvirate.
Because she knew what draining him would do, and she isn't stupid.
Not sure why you would insist on this, despite evidence to the contrary and wasting more time with red herrings.
Traya taught Nihilus how to Drain; his nature simply allowed him to use it on an unprecedented scale.
You can doubt it all you want. Tyranus is one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history, and its quite possible his cleft face man servant exaggerated his feats.
MOST POWERFUL EVAH = definitive debate technique.
If I kept a tally of your fallacies, I'd need a damn spreadsheet.
Moose
Stop using Stover-style hyperbole to fluff up Sids in an attempt to make Yoda look better
mmm
Moose, with some minor edits
Stop using Karpyshyn-style hyperbole to fluff up Vits in an attempt to make Revz look better
131
Seriously, what's your beef with film-oriented grandiosity? It's looking very much that, for a guy who professes to hate wank, you only hate wank when it's not surrounding an EU character.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Khem adores Hord, but Khem only respects superior strength. It's not like Tulak Hord used to nibble his ear and he just can't resist talking his old master up.
And while Hord may indeed possess superior strength to Khem, there's no reason to conclude that Khem is beyond exaggerating when it comes to those whom he idolizes.
If anything, it would only serve to make Khem himself more impressive: Yeah, the only guy I've ever prostrated myself before was SO L33T THAT HE COULD YANK STARSHIPS OUT OF THE SKY LOL SEE HOW MUCH OF A BADASS I AM?!
I mean, again, we could do the same thing with Dooku. Dooku, arrogant elitist that he is, respects superior strength, does he not? So are we to take everything he says and thinks about Sidious as the gospel?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmm131
Seriously, what's your beef with film-oriented grandiosity? It's looking very much that, for a guy who professes to hate wank, you only hate wank when it's not surrounding an EU character.
So instead of actually cite some kind of specific issue with my post, you just bait me from the sidelines? At least have the balls to be reasonable, instead of trolling me while I duke it out with M. Yoda here.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And while Hord may indeed possess superior strength to Khem, there's no reason to conclude that Khem is beyond exaggerating when it comes to those whom he idolizes.If anything, it would only serve to make Khem himself more impressive: Yeah, the only guy I've ever prostrated myself before was SO L33T THAT HE COULD YANK STARSHIPS OUT OF THE SKY LOL SEE HOW MUCH OF A BADASS I AM?!
I mean, again, we could do the same thing with Dooku. Dooku, arrogant elitist that he is, respects superior strength, does he not? So are we to take everything he says and thinks about Sidious as the gospel?
Your point might mean something if there was good reason to be suspicious of Khem's statements. There aren't. Tulak Hord's abilities are not the subject of live-action material, so everything about him must be extrapolated from anecdotal evidence and hearsay, or else nothing can be known about him.
No one asserts "Tulak Hord is absolutely 100% whatever Khem says". But they do say "If Khem is correct, and I find no reason at this point to really challenge his views, then Tulak Hord is an effin' beast".
I get that you can't accept that kind of evidence. But at the same time I won't validate your stance by pretending the evidence is utterly unbelievable. Your opinion might have more weight if you had actually played the game, or shown sufficient knowledge of all of Khem's dialogue and how it's portrayed; you don't. So you're being skeptical of evidence which says something you don't like, from source material you haven't personally reviewed. It'd be like reading your movie review about a movie you heard about from someone else, which you had already decided you didn't want to see.
Real enlightening.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Your point might mean something if there was good reason to be suspicious of Khem's statements. There aren't. Tulak Hord's abilities are not the subject of live-action material, so everything about him must be extrapolated from anecdotal evidence and hearsay, or else nothing can be known about him.No one asserts "Tulak Hord is absolutely 100% whatever Khem says". But they do say "If Khem is correct, and I find no reason at this point to really challenge his views, then Tulak Hord is an effin' beast".
I get that you can't accept that kind of evidence. But at the same time I won't validate your stance by pretending the evidence is utterly unbelievable. Your opinion might have more weight if you had actually played the game, or shown sufficient knowledge of all of Khem's dialogue and how it's portrayed; you don't. So you're being skeptical of evidence which says something you don't like, from source material you haven't personally reviewed. It'd be like reading your movie review about a movie you heard about from someone else, which you had already decided you didn't want to see.
Real enlightening.
👆
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not well understood is the operative phrase here. Malak had to use it on people who could not fight back. In fact that example begs the question, why didn't Malak simply drain Revan when he approached him? Why did Vitiate not just drain Revan when he walked into his throne room?
Presumably because it wouldn't be effective. I think you are confused, there is a clear difference between a regular Force Drain that the majority of practicioners use and Nihilus and Kreia's version of the technique.
There are numerous different kinds of Force Drain and they are all different. Some drain life and vitality like Bane's version in DoE, some simply siphon a little Force to rekindle their own. Nihilus' version is very different than the other versions, completely sapping all Force from a target and leaving a Void in the Force. In Unseen, Unheard his technique is shown to resemble a vast black cloud rather than how it is depicted in the game as orange lightning. The Exile and the Triumvirate Assassins use this technique as well in ways completely unique to the ways that Force Drain is used everywhere else.
Krayt doesn't form Force bonds and dominate the wills of those around him, siphoning their power into his own or bring his allies back to life through force of will. He does not get consumed by his hunger and start draining everything in sight. Because his Force Drain technique is different. Presumably so is Malak's and Vitiates (which was a ritual). Malak, Krayt, Sidious, Bane, Vitiate etc cannot instakill any opponent because they do not possess the same ability that Nihilus and Kreia does.
Edit: Vitiates technique is very very similar though and he actually does need to feed his hunger in some manner. He really is a complete rip-off.
Stealth Moose
So instead of actually cite some kind of specific issue with my post, you just bait me from the sidelines? At least have the balls to be reasonable, instead of trolling me while I duke it out with M. Yoda here.
😐
First, I addressed your argument on the previous page and you have yet to respond.
Second, you pull stunts like these all the damn time with everyone else. The times you've snarked and bemoaned about PT/movie bias is endless. I'm simply doing to you what you've done to me and others time and time again.
So I suggest you grow a pair and dispense with the double standards. If you can dish it out, you can sure as hell take it.
Stealth Moose
Your point might mean something if there was good reason to be suspicious of Khem's statements. There aren't. Tulak Hord's abilities are not the subject of live-action material, so everything about him must be extrapolated from anecdotal evidence and hearsay, or else nothing can be known about him.
And until such a time that you would fairly consider anecdotal evidence and hearsay about characters other than the EU characters about which you fantasize, we'll talk. Until then, I'll be a constant pain in your ass about this. Your double standards are unacceptable bro.
Stealth Moose
No one asserts "Tulak Hord is absolutely 100% whatever Khem says". But they do say "If Khem is correct, and I find no reason at this point to really challenge his views, then Tulak Hord is an effin' beast".
And yet there are reasons to challenge his views. The same reasons you used to challenge Dooku's worshipful, extravagant opinions of Sidious.
Welcome to the No Double Standard Zone, bro.
Stealth Moose
I get that you can't accept that kind of evidence. But at the same time I won't validate your stance by pretending the evidence is utterly unbelievable. Your opinion might have more weight if you had actually played the game, or shown sufficient knowledge of all of Khem's dialogue and how it's portrayed; you don't. So you're being skeptical of evidence which says something you don't like, from source material you haven't personally reviewed. It'd be like reading your movie review about a movie you heard about from someone else, which you had already decided you didn't want to see.Real enlightening.
Your anger is gratifying; I know I've struck a nerve.
Anyway, I don't have to have personally played the game to question your arguments or to poke holes in it, just as an attorney doesn't need to have medical expertise to question a medical examiner.
Use your head for something other than a seat cushion, bro. 👆
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Are you being deliberately obtuse?The use of the Drain in cutscenes is not "game mechanics". Stop using vague terms to invalidate canon which threatens your argument and be fair about things.
The Drain is used in cutscenes.
Lol when has anyone dodged any force power in KOTOR or KOTOR II? They didn't. Because the game's mechanics didn't allow for it to be shown.
It is not dodged ever, and in fact is represented as being near-instant, or at least too fast for even Force users to simply evade.There is nothing to suggest a proper defense besides being a wound in the Force or knowing how to emulate one.
Concession accepted, you have no proof it can tag someone as fast as Yoda. The burden of proof is on you to prove it can.
Conclusion: Force Drain can adequately tag Yoda, who has been nearly squashed by senate pods and tagged solidly with lightning which was at least comparable in speed, if not slower.
Lol the movies portray an essentially slowed down version of how the fights actually take place. And lol at Force Drain being fast as lightning.
No, I'm not. You're strawmanning. I've said repeatedly that it requires a [b]specific defense, which you have not conclusively shown Yoda to have, so it seems to be a huge leap in logic to assert that Yoda wins by virtue of... being Yoda.
No it doesn't it requires a specific person.
The statement "Gigadrain can't be beat" which Neph said, was hyperbole. We've both acknowledged it can be beat, but you haven't demonstrated that it can be beat by Yoda.
Strawman.
Not at all. Replace gun with force drain, and people with Jedi Council members and that's exactly the same scenari.
24 arms at the same time? Do you have any more hyperbolic nonsense for me? In G-canon film source material, I can visibly see Sidious, and he doesn't have 24 arms. Stop using Stover-style hyperbole to fluff up Sids in an attempt to make Yoda look better and ignore my argument.
"Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once. The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?"
1. You haven't shown that the Drain can be avoided.
Yes I have. I can physically see drain cross the distance. Unless something is instantaneous it can be dodged.
2. Evidence doesn't even imply the possibility.
Not on the scale of Nihilus because the attack is simply too big do dodge unless you have a starship.
3. Yoda has been tagged by stuff slower than Traya's Drain with obvious prep and telegraphy (Senate pod, anyone?)
The movies obviously occur at a slower frame rate to accommodate people watching the movie. No one wants to watch two blurs fighting each other.
Biased fluff
More bias against Yoda.
You are so impressed by Yoda's flippy shit that you completely ignore all the times he's tagged by stuff slower than her TK/Drain.
Nope.
Proof by assertion. Implication that Nihilus is more powerful than billions of Force users, and Traya is more powerful than 6-10 Sith mooks and 3 Elite Jedi Masters.
Billions? Painful exaggeration. There were far less than a hundred Jedi on Katarr, and a bunch of untrained Force sensitives who'd hardly be able to defend against his power. And considering Nihilus ripped his flagship from orbit as well as his entire fleet, yes it stands to reason he could just as easily have thrown the Ravager at the conclave and they couldn't do shit to stop him.
There's never a correlation between raw power and resisting Force Drain.
So you think a random Sith mook using it could defeat Yoda? Do you not see the problem with this line of thinking?
No, they're just survivors from the Great Sith Wars and Jedi Civil Wars, who survived the purges of Revan, Malak, and the Sith Triumvirate, masters of all of the lightsaber forms, known demostraters of Force Sever, Force Stun, Mass Force Stun, and considered great threats by their enemies.
There were less than a hundred Jedi left after the Jedi Civil War. The Triumvirate's "purge" was a joke. Vrook, and the others simply hid it out.
But feel free to fluff up the competition.
The idea that Kavar, Zek Kai El and Vrook can hold a candle to Yoda, Mace, and Kenobi is lol worthy.
Sidious never does 24+ blows/second, ever.
Uh yes he does. And Grievous does 20+ and Kenobi keeps it up.
Proof by assertion.
Do you even know what this means? Also I never shifted the burden, the burden has always been on you.
They did. The entire planet was aware of him when he spoke. But he was able to level most of the planet and kill all of them anyways, save for Visas whom he spared (and she was nearly dead all the same).
Nihilus' technique is on an entirely different scale than Kreia's. I'm not arguing Yoda can dodge something on a planetary scale and massively hypersonic+.
Probably because Malak's ability to drain may have had to do with the Star Forge, and it was insufficient enough to drain active, fighting Jedi.
Hmm seems to lean towards the idea that someone sufficiently powerful (Revan, Yoda, ect.) could defend against it.
Why would he? Far better to mind-rape him and make him an ally.
After Revan put him on his ass twice and proved to be a viable threat? Uhh to live.
So you're disputing that GL didn't want Force Drain in the PT series? Or just assuming on behalf of your bias again?
What?
Except that Vitiate and Krayt's methods were far superior. Technically, Kun's plan almost worked, and Sadow lived for an extremely long time. Ragnos' walking stick could revive his spirit and presumably his body.Red herring. Relevance?
Sidious knew full well about Force Drain.
The tongue of the ancient Sith. And yet Nihilus was able to impart his thoughts and instructions to Visas.
It is a simple matter for a Sith of sufficient power to burn a language into a force sensitive's mind to make them understand. *see Revan and first contact with the Rakatans
But you haven't proven that he did so, at all. So it remains an unproven assertion.
More of a logical deduction.
Because she knew what draining him would do, and she isn't stupid.Not sure why you would insist on this, despite evidence to the contrary and wasting more time with red herrings.
Traya taught Nihilus how to Drain; his nature simply allowed him to use it on an unprecedented scale.
You just said it cannot be taught. Also doesn't explain why she didn't drain Sion.
MOST POWERFUL EVAH = definitive debate technique.If I kept a tally of your fallacies, I'd need a damn spreadsheet.
Two things are considered here. Hype and Feats, both of which Dooku has en masse. Tulak Hord has hype. And also lol at you calling me out on red herrings when a line later you are doing just that.
Move aside the fact that Kreia has never used FD on an opponent as fast as Yoda, more importantly, he's never used it on an opponent as powerful. I just don't buy that she can drain the shit out of anyone she wants, even less so someone who is unquestionably ages ahead of her in terms of combat, power, skill, technique, swordsmanship, knowledge, etc.
Besides, Jinn taught Anakin how to defend against the DR and Yoda's been talking to the guy ever since he died. You think he didn't share this knowledge with him at some point? I certainly think it is highly likely that he did.