Originally posted by Zenwolf
If they were the size of small cars, why is it great then? I mean TKing something the size of a car, is kinda tame compared to other TK feats.
Well I did say "at the very least" and I was making an extremely conservative estimate...don't want to push feats too hard from the get go when they aren't explicitly quantifiable.
Originally posted by nfactor1995
Well I did say "at the very least" and I was making an extremely conservative estimate...don't want to push feats too hard from the get go when they aren't explicitly quantifiable. Also, a solid rock the size of a car would way a TON, so it's not like that's an unimpressive TK feat anyways.
I mean it's not unimpressive, it's just not something that I feel would be impossible for others to do.
But fair I guess if you're being conservative, though I think it's about right, watching the fight, the asteroids floating up look far bigger than the ones you see coming down during the fight.
Wow, while I consume my free time with responses to both skills and nfactor I'll address @tenebrousway:
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
SWTOR Scourge is, at minimum, the best swordsmen and most powerful force user of the last 300* years as he defeated every Jedi and Sith that grew either too powerful or ambitious to annoy Vitiate.And he's still only Act HoT 2 level.
Revan also scales above Malgus, whose unmatched battlefield feats as a warrior also makes him greater than "one of the best in history"
On another note, Revan at the Foundry was said to have become "more powerful than any Jedi ever dreamed of." So, unless kbro can prove every Jedi that came after Revan is more powerful than him, his "but he' just one of the best of his era" is pure shit.
*Not counting Vitiate and Revan
2. And Scourge has nothing putting him in Kenobi's ballpark rendering the point moot.
3. ❌ Being noted for his unmatched battlefield accomplishments(you know leading the empire to countless military victories, sacking the jedi temple) doesn't make him one of the best in history with it comes to single encounter engagements. His battlefieled skills would have more to do with his ability to kill fodder.
4. Nice strawman bruh, I was talking about lightsaber skill.
But yea, Sor revan is one of the most powerful jedi in history.
So is Plo Koon, 👆
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Wow, while I consume my free time with responses to both skills and nfactor I'll address @tenebrousway:1. No , this doesn't place him above all the other jedi/sith of the era because it only accounts for force users who had the potential to threaten vitiate. You don't need to be able to threaten vitiate to be>the scourge.
Errr...what you're saying doesn't even make sense.
Entire generations of the Sith Dark Council have passed under the watchful eyes of the Emperor's personal executioner, the grim Lord Scourge. As the feared "Emperor's Wrath," Scourge enforced his Master's will for more than three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat.
Regardless, which noteworthy people does this place him over?
The basis of your argument is that Revan only fought some of the best of their eras when it's factually untrue when you factor the Hero of Tython is superior to Scourge, who dominated the scene for at last 300 years.
2. And Scourge has nothing putting him in Kenobi's ballpark rendering the point moot.
Ignoratio elenchi.
3. ❌ Being noted for his unmatched battlefield accomplishments(you know leading the empire to countless military victories, sacking the jedi temple) doesn't make him one of the best in history with it comes to single encounter engagements. His battlefieled skills would have more to do with his ability to kill fodder.
Again, for n-th time: Sidious praised Malgus' abilities as a warrior not a general. To compliment, as a general, Malgus actually lost at last two battles, the Battle of Aldeeran and the 1st Ord Radama. To further compliment, during the Sack of Coruscant, Malgus was the subcommander and not the commander of the mission. Your opinion doesn't conform with the concordance of Sidious' affirmation, does not conform with Malgus' military record and does not conform with the roles he played during the GGW. To further corroborate my point, the HoT considered Malgus form to be flawless.
4. Nice strawman bruh, I was talking about lightsaber skill.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The same applies with the scaling you're trying to pull off here force wise.
😮
You don't read your own posts?
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Errr...what you're saying doesn't even make sense.
So this I don't get, Vitiate is suppose to be the biggest and baddest guy around in the era...yet Jedi and Sith are able to grow powerful enough to be threats to him?
I get if like 1 or 2 were ok fine, but that quote implies many more than that. It just seems strange frankly.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That's not what the quote even says. The quote just says "if a jedi became too powerful, or a sith too ambitious." Doesn't necessarily mean they're threats to Vitiate in one on one combat, lol. Scourge being able to defeat them means that they're ants to Vitiate.
But Scourge was then sent to eliminate the threat. Maybe not then, but eventually.
I mean unless the threat part means the one in question was a threat to the SE...which Vitiate didn't really seem to care about.
I guess though, just something I was wondering on.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
So this I don't get, Vitiate is suppose to be the biggest and baddest guy around in the era...yet Jedi and Sith are able to grow powerful enough to be threats to him?I get if like 1 or 2 were ok fine, but that quote implies many more than that. It just seems strange frankly.
That's not incompatible with their personality at all. Sidious, for example, also hunted tons of low tier Jedi. They're meticulous sociopaths.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Wow, while I consume my free time with responses to both skills and nfactor I'll address @tenebrousway:
Translation: "Since I don't want to respond to those two arguments, nor do I plan to, I'll indefinitely dodge by investing myself in a debate I think I have a decent chance in."
We've all done it, but since we've all done, you're BS is pretty apparent. Respond to Skillz and nfactor. 👆
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Errr...what you're saying doesn't even make sense.
[i]
The basis of your argument is that Revan only fought some of the best of their eras when it's factually untrue when you factor the Hero of Tython is superior to Scourge, who dominated the scene for at last 300 years.
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Sorry, what? Surpassing someone who was the best of his era only makes you the best of said era. That Hot>Scourge still proves nothing in relation to Kenobi who has hype, feats, and scaling that position him well above some of the best swordsmen in history, rather than merely the best of his specific era.
[i]
Ignoratio elenchi.
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[i]
Again, for n-th time: Sidious praised Malgus' abilities as a warrior not a general.
[/B]
[i]
the HoT considered Malgus form to be flawless.
[/B]
[i]
😮You don't read your own posts?
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How bout not taking my words out of context?
[i]The same applies with the scaling you're trying to pull off here force wise. While Revan may be incredibly impressive for his own era, you're going to need to quantufy why that scaling means jack cross-era via feats
[/B]
I didn't say jack about revan not being among the most powerful jedi in history. I specifically asked for a feat based argument here since both Kenobi and Revan are obvs among the most powerful in history(revan has it explicitly stated, Kenobi's inferior in Plo Koon also has it explicitly stated)
Since my post is apparently too long, I'll post it in two parts
1:
Originally posted by nfactor1995
1. The part of the text I was referencing at the beginning of my post never makes use of the word "sheared." The exact quote is "a knife-shaped slab that had balanced for eons slid off the formation, plummeting toward him." This pretty explicitly makes clear that the slab was balanced, and Kenobi merely had to push it hard enough for it to become un-balanced and fall off of the formation.
Originally posted by nfactor1995
2. Yeah, Kenobi's feat is a little bit better than a bantha-herd groundquake. But the fact that Orrin initially thought that it was being caused by a herd of banthas really doesn't paint the feat in a great light. It obviously means that they are loosely comparable occurrences, though Kenobi's is obviously a bit better according to Orrin. Still, not an impressive comparison in the slightest.
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Originally posted by nfactor1995
3. That's exactly what the text implies. The text makes note that the first slab that was pushed off the formation was "massive" (also this is un-quantifiable, we have no idea what "massive" means). Then the text says that pebbles and chunks fell off afterwards. There is a quite obvious distinction between the massive chunk that initially fell, and the pebbles and chunks that fell afterwards. Regardless of semantics, the fact remains that this feat is completely un-quantifiable, which makes it quite difficult to adequately use. I'd also like to know what exactly is so impressive about cracking stone and breaking off pieces of stone.
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2. 🙁 Bruh, Kenobi isn't pushing off the pebbles, pebbles are falling as a result of the towers being cracked, the pebbles have absolutely nothing to do with the chunks which are falling coz Kenobi's cracking the towers.
3. Regardless, when Kenobi is done cracking the towers and proceeds to SIMULTANEOUSLY tear off and push chunks off the towers, the text explicitly states the are "huge":
Orrin coughed as nuggets pelted his back. Another HUGE shard struck just ahead, and then another, behind.
[i]
Also, the text never states or implies that Kenobi was keeping the formation upright while throwing the stones; I'm not sure where you're getting this from.
[/B]
Part 2:
Originally posted by nfactor1995
4. Ok, explain what exactly makes Revan's feat less impressive, let alone significantly less impressive than Kenobi's. Keep in mind that Revan's feat is much more quantifiable than Kenobi's. Revan was pulling down asteroids that visually appear to be at the very least the size of small cars. He pulled down like 30-40 of them, and was pulling them down with such force that they were shattering upon impacting the ground. Not to mention that this version of Revan was significantly weakened due to having just been freed from 300 years of mental torture, AND he was doing all of this mid-combat against the Imperial protagonists. So this is the weakest notable version of Revan performing this feat mid-combat, vs prime Kenobi performing the feat out of combat.
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1. What? The asteroids Revan threw(the ones with yellow circles) aren't even that much bigger than Revan himself(look at the size of the asteroid when it strikes the ground next to Revan). If you're referring to the asteroids that don't have yellow, Revan had nothing to do with those ones(that was the gravity of a machine). I shouldn't have to explain to you why cracking and keeping upright rows of 500 meter towers is more impressive than holding up and throwing down big rocks.
2. Regardless what you seem to have missed is that while Revan threw said rocks down, one by one, Kenobi tore off and pushed chunks of the 500 m towers simultaneously which is why they started "striking all around".
3, Additionally, while Revan threw said rocks straight down, Kenobi demonstrated precision and control making sure the chunks landed just near, but not on Orrin.
Even just tearing and pushing apart the chunks is more impressive than Revan throwing down and holding up the asteroids. Add in his cracking and holding of the towers and Revan's showing is comparatively pathetic.
Originally posted by nfactor1995
5. Revan deflected like 3 of Vitiate's initial attacks, and even managed to land a Force hit on Vitiate that sent him flying across the room. I'd call that some Force based success. And yeah, Vitiate "one-shot" Revan with a charged attack on a dark side nexus so. It wasn't like Revan was going to defeat Vitiate alone, but he held his own quite well given all of the unfavorable circumstances he was facing. Also, it doesn't matter that he ultimately lost given Vitiate is vastly superior to Kenobi (if you disagree with this assertion, defend and explain why).
[/B]
Prove Revan wouldn't have gotten stomped force-wise on even ground or stop bragging about how Revan got one-shotted.
4. That's not how debating works. You think novel vitiate is vastly more impressive than someone who can stalemate attacks from hindered yoda/sids level force users, and see through a galaxy spanning cloud of darkness created by the most powerful sith lord of all time? Then prove it. You make the assertion, you have to prove the assertion.
Not that proving said assertion would mean squat given that Revan was literally one-shottable fodder to him.
Originally posted by nfactor1995
6. No Kenobi has never used lightning. Nyriss's lightning has the power to ash two of her soldiers, both Meetra and Scourge together, and herself even when she has her barrier up. That is far beyond any in-combat Force showing that Kenobi has performed. I'd say that ashing powerful Force users is more impressive (honestly much more so) as a holistic Force feat than breaking off stones from a formation. With the protags, the Hero of Tython's Dromund Kaas feat where he tore through a bunch of the Emperor's guards before defeating the Emperor's Voice, all on a double dark side nexus, is sufficient to at the absolute worst put him roughly on Kenobi's level.
[/B]
Also, you didn't address quite a few points from my original post that are very relevant to the discussion. I'll post them below again for you to address.
Then we have actually in-combat force feats such as rag-dolling the SoR strike team, and contending with all 8 protagonists at the Temple of Sacrifice (even managing to kill some of them, only for Spirit Revan to resurrect them back into the fight). All the while he was being hindered and drained by the Temple of Sacrifice device itself, yet this didn't stop him from contending with the protags. We also have Revan's Star Forge feat in which he tears through hundreds of Dark Jedi and Sith Apprentices, defeats a majorly amped Bastila Shan (who was constantly being healed by the Star Forge), before finally defeating a majorly amped Darth Malak who could draw on the lifeforce of captive Jedi to restore his health mid-combat. All the while Revan would be extremely hindered Force wise by the dark side nexus which is the Star Forge.
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[i]
He has scaling above Darth Nihilus given the Meetra quote from the Revan novel (which states that Mando Wars Revan was more powerful than Darth Nihilus, let alone Darth Revan, KOTOR Revan, and SoR Revan, all of whom are vastly more powerful than Mando Wars Revan), meaning he is more powerful than someone who can telekinetically rip capital ships from the surface of a planet all the way out into orbit, and can hold his ship together telekinetically. He vastly scales above each and every one of the protagonists as of Shadow of Revan. All of this puts him vastly above Kenobi as a Force user. It's really not even much of a contest. [/B]
2. FYI Nihlus didn't telekinetically hold the fleet together:
with the Ravager – I mostly wanted Nihilus to have a ghost ship in keeping with his personality. It wouldn’t immediately fall apart without Nihilus, but his presence there and his ties to it make minor changes and upkeeps to its function and hull that keep it intact – if barely. When killed, the ship would slowly begin to fall apart into wreckage, although it’s not held together by any sort of super Telekinesis.
[i]Originally posted by DarthAnt66
TB, don't respond to the above. Give kbro the "free time" to respond to Skillz and nfactor. Respond after he writes a response to them.Otherwise he'll just continue this debate and their responses will be lost in back pages.