Revan Vs Mace Windu

1. I feel that I shouldn't have to explain what the Hero of Tython has done. He was the most powerful jedi in the galaxy by the end of Act 1, (Above Barsen'thor, who while in an immensely weakened state defeated an ancient sith lord being amped by hundreds of jedi masters), and he only grows more powerful in Act 2 and Act 3. By the end of Act 3, he's fighting through Kaas City, Vitiate's Royal Guard, saves his apprentice, which gives Vitiate more time to gather his power, and then defeats Vitiate himself, (who was so powerful even in his immensely weakened state that Scourge knew he'd get mentally dominated in his presence, Scourge being powerful enough to essentially shit on Dark Council Members). HoT proceeds to grow more powerful in the events leading up to SOR. At this point he's considered a legendary swordsman.

Darth Marr is generally considered to be one of the absolute top members of the Dark Council, having been elected at age 20, his abilities are "second to none," etc. Implications matter just as much as feats. 👆

Satele is relative to Marr and actually has saber feats of her own.

Lana is meh. Point being, taking them all head-on simultaneously, coupled with Kenobi's defensive/conservative style, and I ultimately don't see that being the deciding factor in the fight.

2. Where in the thread you linked earlier does it state that Kenobi was holding the megaliths upright and completely demolished them chunk-by-chunk? I'm also not sure how taking them apart chunk-by-chunk is vastly more impressive than Revan bombarding the protags with asteroids while in an immensely weakened state.

Revan casually reflecting Nyriss's lightning storm after having been comatose/imprisoned, drugged, and tortured for 3 years is combatively far more impressive than any of Kenobi's force feats as well.

There's also Nihilus scaling. Nihilus lifted his capital ship, and arguably his fleet, out of the gravity wells of Malachor V, and he's inferior to Mando Wars Revan according to Meetra. 🙂

3. I never said Revan resisting Vitiate's TP was relevant to fighting Kenobi.

With the megalith feat, the chunk that Kenobi pushed off of the stone feature was described as "a knife-shaped slab that had balanced for eons" (which would indicate that not much force really would be taken to "unbalance" this slab). So it wasn't like Kenobi just outright broke off this huge chunk from the slab and threw it down. All he did was give it enough of a push to unbalance it, and it fell on its own.

Then the passage makes pretty explicitly clear that the cracks that formed on the rock fixture could have been caused by a groundquake caused by a herd of banthas...so its really not made out to be a super impressive feat. Then what Kenobi actually brakes off are described to be "pebbles" and "chunks," completely undefined as to how large the pieces were (although pebbles really makes it sound like the pieces were tiny, and the chunks obviously wouldn't be very big because the passage previously describes an actually large piece of rock as a "massive chunk"😉. Regardless, the most important fact about this feat is it is undefined. Tbh I don't see any reason why this feat is even superior to something like Satele's mountain feat where she blows apart a portion of the side of a mountain with a Force push.

This is really nothing compared to what Revan's done. As noted already by others, Revan has his asteroid feat which at the absolute worst...is still better than Kenobi's feat. Revan was significantly weakened at that point, had just come out of 300 years of mental torture, and even still was pulling them down with such force that they shattered upon impacting the ground. Mid-combat, which makes it even more impressive.
Then we have actually in-combat force feats such as rag-dolling the SoR strike team, and contending with all 8 protagonists at the Temple of Sacrifice (even managing to kill some of them, only for Spirit Revan to resurrect them back into the fight). All the while he was being hindered and drained by the Temple of Sacrifice device itself, yet this didn't stop him from contending with the protags. He also deflected some of Vitiate's force attacks despite being on a dark side nexus and literally on Vitiate's home turf. He even manages to land a push that knocks Vitiate across the room. We also have Revan's Star Forge feat in which he tears through hundreds of Dark Jedi and Sith Apprentices, defeats a majorly amped Bastila Shan (who was constantly being healed by the Star Forge), before finally defeating a majorly amped Darth Malak who could draw on the lifeforce of captive Jedi to restore his health mid-combat. All the while Revan would be extremely hindered Force wise by the dark side nexus which is the Star Forge.

Then we have scaling for Revan: Revan lolstomps Darth Nyriss, whose lightning ashes common soldiers, would've ashed Meetra and Scourge, and actually did ash herself. Yet Revan casually caught and deflected this lightning. This showing alone puts Revan entirely out of Kenobi's paygrade when it comes to Force power. He has scaling above Darth Nihilus given the Meetra quote from the Revan novel (which states that Mando Wars Revan was more powerful than Darth Nihilus, let alone Darth Revan, KOTOR Revan, and SoR Revan, all of whom are vastly more powerful than Mando Wars Revan), meaning he is more powerful than someone who can telekinetically rip capital ships from the surface of a planet all the way out into orbit, and can hold his ship together telekinetically. He vastly scales above each and every one of the protagonists as of Shadow of Revan. He scales off of Novel Vitiate given he could hold his own for a good amount of time against him in a fight on a dark side nexus. Heck, it can legitimately be argued that the Force sensitive protagonists as of SoR can defeat Kenobi for a majority. All of this puts him vastly above Kenobi as a Force user. It's really not even much of a contest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95SYdjRVCR0

👆

You first extreme.

1. As you've accurately pointed out, the characters who revan dealt with were among the best of their era. However that doesn't mean all that much when we're making cross era references which feature characters and scaling in regards to the best in HISTORY. Reminder, lets assume Revan is one of the best swordsmen in history and is at the peak of lightsaber combat, that still gets him only to tier 7 with say kit fisto or arguably qui-gon. Kenobi gets scaling over tier 8's via maul. Also, lets not act like Kenobi's offense isn't incredibly high level. His ataru was suffecient to outmatch Maul, who as a tier 8, is a tier above the best in history. If Kenobi wants to wither down Revan with his offense, he can do so.

The same applies with the scaling you're trying to pull off here force wise. While Revan may be incredibly impressive for his own era, you're going to need to quantufy why that scaling means jack cross-era via feats(as tor gets nothing in scaling from the pt era). Why should I care if vitate is so powerful for scourge? What has the ooponents Revan massively outmatched individually have that makes massively outmatching them impressive?

2. We can tell Kenobi's holding them together, because they don't fall after he cracks all of them. And what you seem to have missed is that he was throwing thse chunks simultaneously, unlike revan who threw it one by one, hence why they were "striking all around" in the next instant.

On second thought, I exaggerated with "completely demolished" however afterwards people start specualting that an avalanche hit, suggetsing he wrecked the towers.

3. Then why bring it up?

Nfactor you're next, I'd advise staying away from sw legend impressions.

1. Cherry picking like usual, the text notes the slabs were "seared off".

2. What? the text implies the exact opposite. THe guy watching all this INITALLLY thinks it's a bantha quake, but when he sees the damage caused, he realzies that this couldn't be a bantha quake because a bantha quake couldn't cause that much damage.

3. Bruh, this isn't hard. The "pebbles" falling were a result off the "chunks being seared off". And no, one the chunk being labed as massive doesn't at all imply the other chunks were't massive. If anything, it would suggest that all the other chunks were also massive as they too were described as "chunks". And Kenobi was tearing thse chunks away at the at the same time, which is why "they were stiking all around" which is why the chunk tearing part(which isn't even the best part of the feat) is more impressive than Revan individually bringing down rocks in quick succession.
You've also ignored Kneobi cracking all these megaliths an dthen holding them upright which makes revan's showing look like childplay.

4. Nope no, Revan's asteroid feat isn't in the same ball park. You selectively chose one part of Kenobi's showing, and then lowballed it by drawing conclusions contradicted by the text.

5. Vitiate one-shot revan, Ant's fanon aside, Revan didn't do jack against Vitiate. You might have a point if Revan had any degree of force based success on vitiate, but he didn't.

6. Not sure how you're drawing this cmaprison. Has Kenobi ever use dlighting? What has nyriss done that stops her from being ragdoll fodder to Kenobi? As usual you baselessly assert characters which nothing putting them in Kneobi's stratosphere are comparable as a basis for your flawaed scaling. The protags are comparable to Kenobi? Then give me comparable showings.

Your scaling based on an absolutely arbitrary and rather baseless assertion that character x is~ character y is rather bunk. None of the protags touch the feats Kenobi was pulling off a year post aotc, let alone rots(note Kenobi has shown he can grow much more powerful over the course of a couple of months).

Lel, kbro absolutely destroys Skillz and Ant 😂

The megalith feat isn't even the best way to scale Kenobi lol.

it's the best quantifiable way

Can someone inform me as to wut the megalith feat even is?

that feat is way overrated lol breaking some stone isn\t even that good lmfao

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You first extreme.

1. As you've accurately pointed out, the characters who revan dealt with were among the best of their era. However that doesn't mean all that much when we're making cross era references which feature characters and scaling in regards to the best in HISTORY. Reminder, lets assume Revan is one of the best swordsmen in history and is at the peak of lightsaber combat, that still gets him only to tier 7 with say kit fisto or arguably qui-gon. Kenobi gets scaling over tier 8's via maul. Also, lets not act like Kenobi's offense isn't incredibly high level. His ataru was suffecient to outmatch Maul, who as a tier 8, is a tier above the best in history. If Kenobi wants to wither down Revan with his offense, he can do so.

The same applies with the scaling you're trying to pull off here force wise. While Revan may be incredibly impressive for his own era, you're going to need to quantufy why that scaling means jack cross-era via feats(as tor gets nothing in scaling from the pt era). Why should I care if vitate is so powerful for scourge? What has the ooponents Revan massively outmatched individually have that makes massively outmatching them impressive?

2. We can tell Kenobi's holding them together, because they don't fall after he cracks all of them. And what you seem to have missed is that he was throwing thse chunks simultaneously, unlike revan who threw it one by one, hence why they were "striking all around" in the next instant.

On second thought, I exaggerated with "completely demolished" however afterwards people start specualting that an avalanche hit, suggetsing he wrecked the towers.

3. Then why bring it up?

1. I feel that you didn't wholly address the point I was making here, but here's the thing:

The whole "best in history" quote thing is irrelevant, because Revan doesn't have a quote like that. What is relevant in this particular discussion, however, is Revan's feats, which shit all over Qui Gon's and Kit Fisto's. The feat the Hero of Tython has at the end of Act 3:

[list]
[*]Fighting through Kaas City to even reach the shuttle to get to Vitiate's Temple.
[*]Fighting through Vitiate's elite Temple Guards within the Dark Temple, a nexus so powerful that numerous sith lords and slave armies have been driven insane just by being in its presence.
[*]Going out of his way to fight through more temple guards save his apprentice, which gave Vitiate further time to recover. Keep in mind that even without letting Vitiate recover, he was still so powerful that Lord Scourge, the Emperor's Wrath, felt that he would be enslaved just by being in the Emperor's presence. Keep in mind that in the Revan Novel, far from his peak in SWTOR, Scourge was noted to be an expert swordsman that even Revan noted had incredible potential. By SWTOR, Scourge is causing Dark Council Members to shit their pants, and he nigh stalemated the Hero of Tython at the end of Act 2, who by that time was the most powerful member of the jedi order, above the likes of Satele Shan and the Barsen'thor.
[*]Defeating Vitiate in the heart of his power after fighting through all his numerous defenses on a powerful dark side nexus.
[/list]

So yeah, Qui Gon and Fisto get shit on by end of Act 3 Hero of Tython. The Hero also grows even more powerful from the events leading up to SOR. And the Hero still can't hope to stand up to Revan alone, receiving the help of Shan/Marr/Lana/Shae Vizla/Theron. So yeah, Kenobi's saber skills won't be the deciding factor in this fight.

As for the force scaling...I actually did give you specific evidence in terms of scaling/feats as to why Revan lolstomps Kenobi:

[list]
[*]Revan Reborn, after waking up from a coma and being imprisoned/tortured/drugged by drugs that literally weakened his connection to the force for 3 years, was capable of "easily" catching Nyriss's charged lightning storm and reflecting it back at her. This lightning storm was so powerful that it was capable of ashing Meetra, Scourge, and Nyriss herself, even after she'd thrown up a force barrier. Kenobi under no circumstances is "easily" catching and reflecting Nyriss's charged lightning storm, much less in the horrible conditions Revan was in.
[*]Darth Nihilus, who is powerful enough to drain entire planets of life, ragdoll his capital ship, and possibly his whole fleet, from the immense gravity wells of Malachor V, isn't even as powerful as Mandalorian Wars Revan, according to Meetra. Revan has gotten "far more powerful" since the mandalorian wars by the Novel, much less SOR.
[*]Jadus, who is the greatest sith the empire has ever produced according to Valkorion, (which would include Nyriss and Malgus) held his dreadnought together from destruction, shook his dreadnought by getting angry, etc, is inferior to the sith protags at the start of KotFE, who in turn are far weaker than Revan.
[/list]

2. Why do the cracks have to be so substantial that it would cause the entire megalith to crumble, forcing Kenobi to hold them upright? That isn't even implied at all in the text. And "shearing off" the chunks isn't the same thing as Kenobi throwing the chunks, like at all. The actual definition of shear in this context is:

"break off or cause to break off, owing to a structural strain."

So the slabs that were falling were broken off due to the cracks Kenobi was causing in the megaliths, (again, these cracks dont have to be so substantial that it would cause the entire megaliths to collapse). And it could be likened to an avalanche because a lot of shit was falling really fast, not because all the megalith columns were decimated, lol.

Also, the whole "unafraid" thing doesn't imply Kenobi performed the feat easily at all. The quote just implies that he performed the feat:

Orrin could hear more Tusken children yowling in the maze as the debris landed. But he was more interested in Ben's reaction. The man had seemed completely unafraid of the earlier phenomenon-almost as if he'd orchestrated the whole thing. But now, one hand on the clinging Tusken youngling, Ben looked worried.

Originally posted by toplel
that feat is way overrated lol breaking some stone isn\t even that good lmfao

👆

Revan slaughters.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Skillz slaughters.

SWTOR Scourge is, at minimum, the best swordsmen and most powerful force user of the last 300* years as he defeated every Jedi and Sith that grew either too powerful or ambitious to annoy Vitiate.

And he's still only Act HoT 2 level.

Revan also scales above Malgus, whose unmatched battlefield feats as a warrior also makes him greater than "one of the best in history"

On another note, Revan at the Foundry was said to have become "more powerful than any Jedi ever dreamed of." So, unless kbro can prove every Jedi that came after Revan is more powerful than him, his "but he' just one of the best of his era" is pure shit.

*Not counting Vitiate and Revan

I can see why TOR wank is considered unfavorable these days.

This is frankly getting ridiculous at this point, the OR era was fine up until TOR came around and started pulling ridiculous themes in and movieish related stuff.

The Kotor games didn't need to hinge on any of that.

Damn, Skillz. an brutal :>

Kbro, Y U arguing Obi>Revan?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Nfactor you're next, I'd advise staying away from sw legend impressions.

1. Cherry picking like usual, the text notes the slabs were "seared off".

2. What? the text implies the exact opposite. THe guy watching all this INITALLLY thinks it's a bantha quake, but when he sees the damage caused, he realzies that this couldn't be a bantha quake because a bantha quake couldn't cause that much damage.

3. Bruh, this isn't hard. The "pebbles" falling were a result off the "chunks being seared off". And no, one the chunk being labed as massive doesn't at all imply the other chunks were't massive. If anything, it would suggest that all the other chunks were also massive as they too were described as "chunks". And Kenobi was tearing thse chunks away at the at the same time, which is why "they were stiking all around" which is why the chunk tearing part(which isn't even the best part of the feat) is more impressive than Revan individually bringing down rocks in quick succession.
You've also ignored Kneobi cracking all these megaliths an dthen holding them upright which makes revan's showing look like childplay.

4. Nope no, Revan's asteroid feat isn't in the same ball park. You selectively chose one part of Kenobi's showing, and then lowballed it by drawing conclusions contradicted by the text.

5. Vitiate one-shot revan, Ant's fanon aside, Revan didn't do jack against Vitiate. You might have a point if Revan had any degree of force based success on vitiate, but he didn't.

6. Not sure how you're drawing this cmaprison. Has Kenobi ever use dlighting? What has nyriss done that stops her from being ragdoll fodder to Kenobi? As usual you baselessly assert characters which nothing putting them in Kneobi's stratosphere are comparable as a basis for your flawaed scaling. The protags are comparable to Kenobi? Then give me comparable showings.

Your scaling based on an absolutely arbitrary and rather baseless assertion that character x is~ character y is rather bunk. None of the protags touch the feats Kenobi was pulling off a year post aotc, let alone rots(note Kenobi has shown he can grow much more powerful over the course of a couple of months).

1. The part of the text I was referencing at the beginning of my post never makes use of the word "sheared." The exact quote is "a knife-shaped slab that had balanced for eons slid off the formation, plummeting toward him." This pretty explicitly makes clear that the slab was balanced, and Kenobi merely had to push it hard enough for it to become un-balanced and fall off of the formation.

2. Yeah, Kenobi's feat is a little bit better than a bantha-herd groundquake. But the fact that Orrin initially thought that it was being caused by a herd of banthas really doesn't paint the feat in a great light. It obviously means that they are loosely comparable occurrences, though Kenobi's is obviously a bit better according to Orrin. Still, not an impressive comparison in the slightest.

3. That's exactly what the text implies. The text makes note that the first slab that was pushed off the formation was "massive" (also this is un-quantifiable, we have no idea what "massive" means). Then the text says that pebbles and chunks fell off afterwards. There is a quite obvious distinction between the massive chunk that initially fell, and the pebbles and chunks that fell afterwards. Regardless of semantics, the fact remains that this feat is completely un-quantifiable, which makes it quite difficult to adequately use. Also, the text never states or implies that Kenobi was keeping the formation upright while throwing the stones; I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I'd also like to know what exactly is so impressive about cracking stone and breaking off pieces of stone.

4. Ok, explain what exactly makes Revan's feat less impressive, let alone significantly less impressive than Kenobi's. Keep in mind that Revan's feat is much more quantifiable than Kenobi's. Revan was pulling down asteroids that visually appear to be at the very least the size of small cars. He pulled down like 30-40 of them, and was pulling them down with such force that they were shattering upon impacting the ground. Not to mention that this version of Revan was significantly weakened due to having just been freed from 300 years of mental torture, AND he was doing all of this mid-combat against the Imperial protagonists. So this is the weakest notable version of Revan performing this feat mid-combat, vs prime Kenobi performing the feat out of combat.

5. Revan deflected like 3 of Vitiate's initial attacks, and even managed to land a Force hit on Vitiate that sent him flying across the room. I'd call that some Force based success. And yeah, Vitiate "one-shot" Revan with a charged attack on a dark side nexus so. It wasn't like Revan was going to defeat Vitiate alone, but he held his own quite well given all of the unfavorable circumstances he was facing. Also, it doesn't matter that he ultimately lost given Vitiate is vastly superior to Kenobi (if you disagree with this assertion, defend and explain why).

6. No Kenobi has never used lightning. Nyriss's lightning has the power to ash two of her soldiers, both Meetra and Scourge together, and herself even when she has her barrier up. That is far beyond any in-combat Force showing that Kenobi has performed. I'd say that ashing powerful Force users is more impressive (honestly much more so) as a holistic Force feat than breaking off stones from a formation. With the protags, the Hero of Tython's Dromund Kaas feat where he tore through a bunch of the Emperor's guards before defeating the Emperor's Voice, all on a double dark side nexus, is sufficient to at the absolute worst put him roughly on Kenobi's level.

Also, you didn't address quite a few points from my original post that are very relevant to the discussion. I'll post them below again for you to address.

Then we have actually in-combat force feats such as rag-dolling the SoR strike team, and contending with all 8 protagonists at the Temple of Sacrifice (even managing to kill some of them, only for Spirit Revan to resurrect them back into the fight). All the while he was being hindered and drained by the Temple of Sacrifice device itself, yet this didn't stop him from contending with the protags. We also have Revan's Star Forge feat in which he tears through hundreds of Dark Jedi and Sith Apprentices, defeats a majorly amped Bastila Shan (who was constantly being healed by the Star Forge), before finally defeating a majorly amped Darth Malak who could draw on the lifeforce of captive Jedi to restore his health mid-combat. All the while Revan would be extremely hindered Force wise by the dark side nexus which is the Star Forge.

He has scaling above Darth Nihilus given the Meetra quote from the Revan novel (which states that Mando Wars Revan was more powerful than Darth Nihilus, let alone Darth Revan, KOTOR Revan, and SoR Revan, all of whom are vastly more powerful than Mando Wars Revan), meaning he is more powerful than someone who can telekinetically rip capital ships from the surface of a planet all the way out into orbit, and can hold his ship together telekinetically. He vastly scales above each and every one of the protagonists as of Shadow of Revan. All of this puts him vastly above Kenobi as a Force user. It's really not even much of a contest.