Originally posted by Nephthys
No. Just.... no.
Who?
Edit - Not sure why you guys are even disagreeing with this, I thought it was fairly obvious that arguably the most skilled bounty hunter in the galaxy would be more dangerous (and certainly more skilled) than any Forceless Jedi/Sith. What am I missing here that makes that claim somehow laughable?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Outspeeding a non-force sensitive through Force speed isn't as impressive as outdueling a Sith Lord without Force Speed.
Muggles who are said to be a match for Sith/Jedi in close combat. (Oh, look at that more muggles who can match force users in close combat.)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Really? The fact that he can make up for his lack of Force powers through sheer skill and physical ability suggests otherwise to me.
And like I said earlier, I would never put his technical skill on a level with the top tiers. This is the point we disagree on then.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]And how many of them actually won those fights? Zero. Apart from that thing with Jaina, which was just Travis-wank and heinously stupid.
They were also fighting characters who have actual impressive combat feats.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Who?
You.
That was just dumb. Your logic makes no sense. Not every being in the galaxy is a Bounty Hunter or fighter. Only a tiny, tiny portion is. Meanwhile every Jedi or Sith is a highly trained warrior monk, with some of the best training in the galaxy and peak physical fitness.
Originally posted by ares834
Muggles who are said to be a match for Sith/Jedi in close combat. (Oh, look at that more muggles who can match force users in close combat.)
And they're rightly said to be the most skilled fighting force in the galaxy because of it.
Originally posted by ares834
And like I said earlier, I would never put his technical skill on a level with the top tiers. This is the point we disagree on then.
Well, how the hell do you think he beat those Jedi unless
a) He's really really fantastic at H2H combat or
b) They were shite.
Originally posted by ares834
They were also fighting characters who have actual impressive combat feats.
And they are all said to be incredibly skilled combatants. As you need too be to match a Jedi or Sith in melee. Although Mandalore was using a Basalisk for most of the fight and as rather swiftly beaten without it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And they're rightly said to be the most skilled fighting force in the galaxy because of it.
👆
Which is why Revan quickly dispatching one is impressive.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, how the hell do you think he beat those Jedi unlessa) He's really really fantastic at H2H combat or
b) They were shite.
Huh? I'm not saying he isn't skilled, just that he is not as skilled as the top tiers.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And they are all said to be incredibly skilled combatants. As you need too be to match a Jedi or Sith in melee.
And all were facing incredibly skilled Jedi.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Neph, how many Bounty Hunters do you think there are in the Galaxy?
How the heck would I know.
Also, it sounds like you'd really like the TOR Bounty Hunter. That badass motherf*cker defeated the Jedi Battlemaster. And one of the top Sith Lords in the Empire. And a Jedi Master War Hero who killed a hundred veteran Mando's in a single battle. The TOR BH is pretty much up there with Grievous as the best non-force sensitive in the mythos imo.
A conservative and realistic estimate would be in the trillions.
Also, it sounds like you'd really like the TOR Bounty Hunter.
Non-Force Using class I'm most looking forward to. But I'm planning on doing all the republic classes first (knight -> consular -> smuggler -> trooper), and then the imps (inquisitor -> warrior -> bounty hunter -> agent).
Edit - They should have made the Bounty Hunter and Smuggler allegiance neutral imo.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
A conservative and realistic estimate would be in the trillions.
That seems excessive.
Originally posted by ares834
👆Which is why Revan quickly dispatching one is impressive.
But he out-sped him, not out-skilled him.
Originally posted by ares834
Huh? I'm not saying he isn't skilled, just that he is not as skilled as the top tiers.
Well his skill would have to be greatly in excess of those Jedi or else he couldn't have beaten them. He is at a natural disadvantage against a Jedi and can only make up for it in certain ways.
Originally posted by ares834
And all were facing incredibly skilled Jedi.
So what exactly is it that you think? That they were equally as skilled except that the Jedi also had Force Speed, Force Strength, precognition and enhanced reflexes but that somehow the muggles were holding their own through pixie wishes and bubblegum raindrops? How did they make up for these disadvantages?
Originally posted by Nephthys
But he out-sped him, not out-skilled him.
So Revan out-sped a Jedi-level opponent... Yeah, still a decent feat.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well his skill would have to be greatly in excess of those Jedi or else he couldn't have beaten them. He is at a natural disadvantage against a Jedi and can only make up for it in certain ways.
Sure. He is more skilled than those Jedi. Just as Nox is more skilled than this Sith Lord. The problem is, as I said in the beginning, we don't know how skilled this Sith Lord is. He doesn't have any real combat feats.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So what exactly is it that you think? That they were equally as skilled except that the Jedi also had Force Speed, Force Strength, precognition and enhanced reflexes but that somehow the muggles were holding their own through pixie wishes and bubblegum raindrops? How did they make up for these disadvantages?
I was merely listing examples of non-force users holding their own against force users in melee combat. You said you couldn't remember it happening anywhere else.
As for how they make up for it, I don't think the disadvantages are quite as severe as you make it out to be.
Ares is right about my interpretation of Force users being generally superior to muggles. Any time a Force user gets their ass handed to them despite having precog that lets untrained Annie basically forecast his way through pod races that no human can do otherwise, it's shit writing and jobbing at work.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its better than anything Revan has done.About Jango:
1. Thats Jango Fett. He's really dang skilled (In hand to hand, not swords. Duh).
2. Those were Jedi fodder as you said. We're talking about a Sith Lord. A Sith Lord is a solid tier above Jedi trash.
3. It isn't "characters like Jango". Its Jango. Its that one scene. That is the only time in the mythos where something like that has happened. Its wildly inconsistent with Jedi capabilities and really dumb. The only way to explain it is that those were some really shitty Jedi.
I always head-canoned Mandalorians to either have some significant cybernetic/ bioenhancement kinda like Spartans but even better in Halo. I mean honestly I've always thought clone troopers and pretty much all soldiers in Star Wars are modified with improved reflexes and such. Otherwise it really doesn't make any sense, sans Grievous who is just that brilliant of a machine.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Stealth Moose, your thoughts on Jango's skill level please.
In what way? Jango is probably one of the most dangerous bounty hunters in the galaxy, and his skillset involves that entirely. But he's also a Mando, and they have an entire thousand plus year history dedicated to martial training, including multiple firearms, melee weapons, and hand to hand. They are also taught survival training in hostile environments. The main reason why the clones have him as a template is because he is the uber-soldier. I'd bet on him against most non-Force using combatants simply because of the above.
But there's no point in evaluating him besides a Force user. Saying he could beat a Force user who wasn't using the Force is like saying I can beat Bruce Lee if his limbs were numb and clumsy. There's no merit because the bounty hunter is best among muggles, and Jedi are relative to their own station of a monkish group that has horribly inconsistent precognition (Ani can use it at will for pod racing and Jedi use it all the damn time to deflect blaster bolts, but in combat, Jedi repeatedly act as if they can't predict anything and wail away like fools) and seeming uber speed (which never translates into combat speed) and TK (which they never use pragmatically).
The idea that muggles can kill Jedi, without being crazy prepared or due to lazy writing, boggles the mind. This isn't to say it hasn't happened; it's to say it shouldn't happen but most writers are morons. If I had to rewrite Star Wars, one of the things I'd change would be the idea that Jedi and Sith fight as if they don't have precog. Hell, I might even remove precog entirely and just make Jedi super fast.
Why else could you dodge a Force push from life energy that permeates the galaxy? Derp.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and Jedi are relative to their own station of a monkish group that has horribly inconsistent precognition (Ani can use it at will for pod racing and Jedi use it all the damn time to deflect blaster bolts, but in combat, Jedi repeatedly act as if they can't predict anything and wail away like fools) and seeming uber speed (which never translates into combat speed) and TK (which they never use pragmatically).
Beg your pardon but I don't really see much inconsistency. Some are just better at precognition than others. In your example of Anakin, recall he was a prodigy with an abnormally high potential. Hence he could pod-race despite having no training.
Regarding blaster deflection vs. melee combat, I see it like this; a blaster bolt is a non-sapient object moving in only one direction and thus is quite easy to predict. A living opponent is sapient and can attack/defend from numerous angles, making it harder to accurately predict what they'll do millisecond to millisecond.
Basically, Kas'im got it right.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Why else could you dodge a Force push from life energy that permeates the galaxy? Derp.
When a Force-user does a Force push he/she is "firing" a psychokinetic wave from their hand in basically a straight line. I don't see why that should be impossible to dodge if one is fast enough.
To put it another way, the energy may permeate the galaxy but the target only needs to dodge the wave passing through that galaxy-permeating energy, not the energy itself.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Gay representation in Star Wars is cool.
Absolutely.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Regarding blaster deflection vs. melee combat, I see it like this; a blaster bolt is a non-sapient object moving in only one direction and thus is quite easy to predict. A living opponent is sapient and can attack/defend from numerous angles, making it harder to accurately predict what they'll do millisecond to millisecond.
Which is bull shit. If a Jedi actually has precog like Qui-Gon claims ("see things before they happen"😉 then it shouldn't make a bit of difference between whether or not they are easy to predict as the Jeid aren't predicting at all but acting to what they know is going to happen.
Of course, the majority of authors of SW have no clue how precog would actually work so characters are performing "feints" and attacking from "unexpected" angles in their duels.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
When a Force-user does a Force push he/she is "firing" a psychokinetic wave from their hand in basically a straight line. I don't see why that should be impossible to dodge if one is fast enough.To put it another way, the energy may permeate the galaxy but the target only needs to dodge the wave passing through that galaxy-permeating energy, not the energy itself.
Which is also dumb as hell. When a force user chokes someone they don't send a magic invisible fast out from their hand to their opponents throat...
Basically, if the force user performing the force push has even half a brain they won't send "magic missiles" flying form their hands like they do in video games, but instead have the force applied directly to their target.