Darth Nox vs Revan

Originally posted by ares834
Which is bull shit. If a Jedi actually has precog like Qui-Gon claims ("see things before they happen"😉 then it shouldn't make a bit of difference between whether or not they are easy to predict as the Jeid aren't predicting at all but acting to what they [b]know is going to happen.

Of course, the majority of authors of SW have no clue how precog would actually work so characters are performing "feints" and attacking from "unexpected" angles in their duels. [/B]

The "feints" and "unexpected angles" thing makes sense when it's two or more Force-users dueling (although not when it's a Jedi vs. a non-Force user I admit). Remember both can "see things before they happen" and both can block or at least obscure the other's precognition. If their abilities cancel each other out then feints, unexpected angles etc make perfect sense.

Plus Force abilities (at least precognition) could be like magic. Sometimes it just doesn't work, even if you do everything right.

Originally posted by ares834
Which is also dumb as hell. When a force user chokes someone they don't send a magic invisible fast out from their hand to their opponents throat...

Basically, if the force user performing the force push has even half a brain they won't send "magic missiles" flying form their hands like they do in video games, but instead have the force applied directly to their target.

Not necessarily. It may be that the "magic missile" approach is the preferred method as its quicker/easier to do than direct application.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The "feints" and "unexpected angles" thing makes sense when it's two or more Force-users dueling (although not when it's a Jedi vs. a non-Force user I admit). Remember both can "see things before they happen" and both can block or at least obscure the other's precognition. If their abilities cancel each other out then feints, unexpected angles etc make perfect sense.

Plus Force abilities (at least precognition) could be like magic. Sometimes it just doesn't work, even if you do everything right.

It shouldn't matter if it's two Jedi/Sith fighting unless they can't blunt each others precog which is never really seen outside Sidious's shroud of the dark side. Typically though, it's just PIS but that's par for the course when it comes to Star Wars.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Not necessarily. It may be that the "magic missile" approach is the preferred method as its quicker/easier to do than direct application.

Which is never implied or stated. Characters seem to be able to use force "grip" just as easily as a push. Frankly, making the force a "missile" seems to be either a complete misunderstanding of the material or done for "cool" visuals/gameplay reasons.

Edit: Not saying that this isn't done. Many times force pushes are shown to be pressurized air or whatever, just saying that this is more PIS that authors pile onto the Jedi.

Absolutely. Force is inconsistently fleshed out, and precog was mangled even by GL.

Originally posted by ares834
So Revan out-sped a Jedi-level opponent... Yeah, still a decent feat.

Yes it is.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. He is more skilled than those Jedi. Just as Nox is more skilled than this Sith Lord. The problem is, as I said in the beginning, we don't know how skilled this Sith Lord is. He doesn't have any real combat feats.

The Sith's level of skill is irrelevent since just by being a Sith Lord he can reasonably be assumed to have superhuman attributes that Nox had to have overcome through sheer skill. You would need a significant amount of skill to overcome this advantage, which is why the feat is a fantastic skill feat.

Originally posted by ares834
I was merely listing examples of non-force users holding their own against force users in melee combat. You said you couldn't remember it happening anywhere else.

As for how they make up for it, I don't think the disadvantages are quite as severe as you make it out to be.

No, I said I couldn't remember a non-force user beating a Force user in melee other than Jango. Or superhuman aliens.

Well obviously I don't. Moose has given some good rhetoric for why the disadvantage would be rather severe and overcoming it is an significant achievement.

Originally posted by ares834
It shouldn't matter if it's two Jedi/Sith fighting unless they can't blunt each others precog which is never really seen outside Sidious's shroud of the dark side. Typically though, it's just PIS but that's par for the course when it comes to Star Wars.

I thought a key part of all lightsaber combat was trying to blunt your opponents precog. I think PoD mentions it during Bane's training.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought a key part of all lightsaber combat was trying to blunt your opponents precog. I think PoD mentions it during Bane's training.

You are correct. I have the quotes right here:

"As this ability grew, he was able to devote less and less of his mental energy to the physical actions of thrust, parry and counterthrust. This allowed him to keep his mind focused so he could use the Force to anticipate his opponent's moves, while at the same time obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses."

"Guarding against the Force powers of your enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe."

Also this line from Scout vs. Hanna in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous:

"It was as if the Arkanian were muddying the Force, the way a Quarren might squirt ink into the sea."

In short, there is no PIS at all.

It wouldn't have to even be stated in the source material anyway.

Precog vs precog is not that different from the irresistible force paradox. If you can predict the future, you can change it. If two precogs are actively working against eachother, it effectively creates an infinite loop. A predicts X and changes it to Y. B predicts Y and changes it to Z. Rinse and repeat.

Precog simply either wouldn't work in such an engagement, or whoever's quicker to detect the changes would have the upper hand.

Interesting. I haven't read PoD in years so I didn't recall that.

The line from Y: DR, however, has nothing to do with dulling Scout's precog. She was simply unable to sense Hanna's location. Heck, when Hanna attacks it triggers Scout's precog.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
It wouldn't have to even be stated in the source material anyway.

Precog vs precog is not that different from the irresistible force paradox. If you can predict the future, you can change it. If two precogs are actively working against eachother, it effectively creates an infinite loop. A predicts X and changes it to Y. B predicts Y and changes it to Z. Rinse and repeat.

Precog simply either wouldn't work in such an engagement, or whoever's quicker to detect the changes would have the upper hand.

It depends on how their precog works. From what I've seen and read it appears to warn the force-user of impending danger and the direction rather than have the FU actually see the future a few seconds before it happens.

If it is the former, then there is no paradox.

Well I'm not really sure how it works but I assumed you'd be able to get an impression of where your opponent might be blocking as well for example. In other words, A senses an attack directed at his right shoulder and plans to block it. B senses that he will be guarding that area and aims to attack his torso instead. A senses the change and decides to guard that area instead. etc.

Perhaps.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Sith's level of skill is irrelevent since just by being a Sith Lord he can reasonably be assumed to have superhuman attributes that Nox had to have overcome through sheer skill. You would need a significant amount of skill to overcome this advantage, which is why the feat is a fantastic skill feat.

And like I said earlier it's a good feat that shows Nox is skilled. However, I don't view it as highly impressive. Other characters such as Jango and Pre Vizla, have similar but more impressive feats yet I still don't consider them amongst the most skilled melee combatants in the mythos.

This is an interesting fight. I'd ultimately give it to Revan, though. Nox, accompanied by the 2nd Wrath, the Champ, and Cipher were able to take on Revan, but even then I doubt anyone would think they took him down even easily. He was throwing giant meteorites down at them, whilst dueling them. At least based on the FP, I would lean over at Revan's side for this one. I do believe, however, that Nox is a powerhouse and would give Revan probably the toughest time of his life in a straight battle.

Yeah but FPs are so inconsistent you don't even know what the **** is up. It also takes Nox, Wrath, Ciphy and Champ to destroy HK, and based on what we see, we wouldn't be able to say it was an easy fight, either, and yet, you'd have no problem saying Nox or anyone of those guys would kick the shit out of HK's metallic balls without much trouble based on their feats and HK's lack thereof.

Originally posted by ares834
And like I said earlier it's a good feat that shows Nox is skilled. However, I don't view it as highly impressive. Other characters such as Jango and Pre Vizla, have similar but more impressive feats yet I still don't consider them amongst the most skilled melee combatants in the mythos.

Jango and Pre Vizla are Mandalorian leaders. The Mandalorians are a group of warriors skilled enough to go toe to toe with a Jedi in a fight due to their combat skill, tactics, firepower and gear and they are the stand outs amongst them. I don't see why you're so resistant to them being so highly skilled when they are the cream of the greatest warrior society in the mythos, with millennia of Jedi combat in their history.

Anyway, different subject: What about the quote that suggests that Nox is equally as skilled with a lightsaber as with the Force? Wouldn't that put them above Revan?

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
This is an interesting fight. I'd ultimately give it to Revan, though. Nox, accompanied by the 2nd Wrath, the Champ, and Cipher were able to take on Revan, but even then I doubt anyone would think they took him down even easily. He was throwing giant meteorites down at them, whilst dueling them. At least based on the FP, I would lean over at Revan's side for this one. I do believe, however, that Nox is a powerhouse and would give Revan probably the toughest time of his life in a straight battle.

That was Nox before s/he consumed a bunch of ghosts and vastly increased his or her power. By the end of the game Nox would have easily caught up with him.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah but FPs are so inconsistent you don't even know what the **** is up. It also takes Nox, Wrath, Ciphy and Champ to destroy HK, and based on what we see, we wouldn't be able to say it was an easy fight, either, and yet, you'd have no problem saying Nox or anyone of those guys would kick the shit out of HK's metallic balls without much trouble based on their feats and HK's lack thereof.

Good point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, different subject: What about the quote that suggests that Nox is equally as skilled with a lightsaber as with the Force? Wouldn't that put them above Revan?

Like I said earlier, I don't actually consider the classes or their descriptions as canonical. They are their for gameplay reasons, and contradict actual canon material.

Originally posted by ares834
The line from Y: DR, however, has nothing to do with dulling Scout's precog. She was simply unable to sense Hanna's location. Heck, when Hanna attacks it triggers Scout's precog.

I stand corrected.

Originally posted by ares834
Like I said earlier, I don't actually consider the classes or their descriptions as canonical. They are their for gameplay reasons, and contradict actual canon material.

The classes absolutely are canon. They're referenced with the characters in the source material and through quest conversations etc. Even if you don't think the descriptions are talking about the characters specifically, Nox is a Sith Inquisitor and the descriptions still apply to them.

How do you think they contradict canon?

Well, the obvious one is the Jedi Knight. The rank of Jedi Knight is for all Jedi, not merely those that primarily brandish a lightsaber.

Jedi Guardians don't necessarily use one lightsaber or wear heavy armor rather they merely focus on combat. Guardians are the primary warriors of the Jedi Order.

Consulars, meanwhile, don't focus on combat or even force based combat. Rather they focus on diplomacy and visions.

Jedi Sentinels don't necessarily focus on Jar'kai, instead they tend to focus on things other than lightsaber combat or a deeper connection to the force such as hacking and intelligence gathering. Also Jedi Shadows branch off of the Sentinels rather than Consulars. Shadows are sent out to retrieve dark side artifacts and vanquish remaining dark side cults not neccesairly to sue a double bladed saber.

Originally posted by ares834
Well, the obvious one is the Jedi Knight. The rank of Jedi Knight is for all Jedi, not merely those that primarily brandish a lightsaber.

Jedi Guardians don't necessarily use one lightsaber or wear heavy armor rather they merely focus on combat. Guardians are the primary warriors of the Jedi Order.

Consulars, meanwhile, don't focus on combat or even force based combat. Rather they focus on diplomacy and visions.

Jedi Sentinels don't necessarily focus on Jar'kai, instead they tend to focus on things other than lightsaber combat or a deeper connection to the force such as hacking and intelligence gathering. Also Jedi Shadows branch off of the Sentinels rather than Consulars. Shadows are sent out to retrieve dark side artifacts and vanquish remaining dark side cults not neccesairly to sue a double bladed saber.

That doesn't necessarily contradict anything. It just means that over the years the definitions and meanings of the various terms changed.

It's a complete contradiction specifically the Jedi Knight. I mean, Jedi Consulars are still referred to as Jedi Knights throughout the game.

It seems pretty clear to me that the class description are gameplay mechanics just as they were in the KotOR games.