Originally posted by Lord Stark
Considering multiple pods were dodged by Yoda with little difficulty, and one pod was a near miss on Sidious it stands to reason Yoda's pod was meant to be faster.
Um, well either that or Sidious wasn't paying attention because he was laughing his ass off.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
He's talking about the final episode of Clone Wars Season 6.
Oh I think it is up. Lol @ Sidious shocking Yoda for like 10 seconds to basically no effect.
Originally posted by Arhael
That's bullshit. Force users anticipate Force attacks like any other attacks and form appropriate defense in response. Kenobi was simply caught off guard by that choke.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
The pod wasn't super slow though.
Nope.
Start watching at 2:44. Sidious' pods, with the exception of the trio he raises for more momentum, hurtle down towards Yoda with good speed. The sole pod Yoda returns, not counting actual time spent prepping the spin (which would get him killed in a real fight where the opponent doesn't just laugh at him pointlessly), it takes a full three seconds to go up at Sidious (before Sidious has to even react).
Now, go back to 3:08. Notice that the distance between them at this point is about 2-3 pod tiers. It takes a full second per pod tier (giving 3 as an estimate, which is generous) to reach Sidious!
"YODA leaps away from the pods. He uses the Force to hold one pod suspended in the air. The pod spins and YODA throws it back at PALPATINE, who leaps away at the last moment."
This doesn't contradict anything I've said, nor support your argument.
It was meant to be a near miss.
And it was, because Sidious spent like half a minute just laughing into his hand like an autistic child.
Considering multiple pods were dodged by Yoda with little difficulty, and one pod was a near miss on Sidious it stands to reason Yoda's pod was meant to be faster.
Little difficulty? Lol. Yoda was sprawled out from a bad jump right before he caught the pod. Watch the video again.
Not to mention the logic that tossing something like a frisbee is going to make it go a lot faster than it simply being tossed.
That's not logic. It's called being biased and not rewatching the video.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
-snip-
This is a ridiculous argument. The speed of the pod is irrelevant. The point is he tried to kill Sidious with it. He killed the Yinchorii warrior I posted below. Filoni blatantly states Yoda and the Jedi's view on using the force changed between ROTS and ESB. Just concede the goddamned point already.
Yoda kills the Barsen'thor then TKs HoT to the wall while Mace kills him.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
This is a ridiculous argument.
You made the assertion.
The speed of the pod is irrelevant.
It's relevant if you bring it up as evidence.
The point is he tried to kill Sidious with it.
He tried to kill Sidious period. He never did any real damage with the Force. Aside from defensive use against lightning (Which HoT and Barsenthor don't use) his TK is not any more deadly than is Obi'Wan's.
He killed the Yinchorii warrior I posted below.
And those Imperial guards never woke up. But none of them are Force users, who can canonically take far more abuse.
Filoni blatantly states Yoda and the Jedi's view on using the force changed between ROTS and ESB. Just concede the goddamned point already.
It's not really my whole point. Arguing that Yoda can kill anything or incapacitate anything with TK begs for proof. Proof which you haven't provided.
Yoda kills the Barsen'thor then TKs HoT to the wall while Mace kills him.
LOLNOPE.
Mace will be struggling with HoT, since the latter is a saber prodigy of the highest order on top of being a Force titan and Vaapad won't be very good against a light-sider. Meanwhile, Barsenthor can stalemate Yoda if not actually damage the little guy.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
He tried to kill Sidious period.
Concession accepted.
And those Imperial guards never woke up. But none of them are Force users, who can canonically take far more abuse.
And Yoda will use the appropriate force
It's not really my whole point. Arguing that Yoda can kill anything or incapacitate anything with TK begs for proof. Proof which you haven't provided.
Yeah Yoda has destroyed entire armies of droids, and massive starships with his force power. The Barsen'thor will be easy in comparison.
LOLNOPE.Mace will be struggling with HoT, since the latter is a saber prodigy of the highest order on top of being a Force titan and Vaapad won't be very good against a light-sider. Meanwhile, Barsenthor can stalemate Yoda if not actually damage the little guy.
Lol at the Barsen'thor stalemating Yoda. Yoda puts him down then goes to help Mace. And also wasn't the HoT DS?
If Dooku is able as you say to overpower Kenobi's protective aura, then he would be able to get read of Kenobi anytime. Yet, in tcw he had harder time against them and did not get read of Kenobi.
And Kenobi proved that he has strong Force defences, when he stalemated Anakin.
Jedi can be caught off guard by Force attack, silly to deny that:
He glimpsed a tall figure in a black pressure suit.
Then the figure flicked one of his hands, and Luke found himself flying backward, bouncing off YVH droids and tumbling out of control. He reached out in the Force, grabbing at passing hatches, the ceiling, even Raynar himself, but he was whirling too fast to catch hold of anything.
He hit the end of the corridor with a tremendous clung, unsure whether he was upside down or sideways, then crashed to the floor struggling to remain conscious.
You know what happened, when Thul tried to Force attack Luke again.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Concession accepted.
This isn't a brownie point for you since your assertion Yoda will win using just the Force remains unproven. Whether or not he's a total pacifist isn't my argument, and your strawmanning is ridiculous.
And Yoda will use the appropriate force
Proof?
Yeah Yoda has destroyed entire armies of droids, and massive starships with his force power. The Barsen'thor will be easy in comparison.
You mean in the 2003 CW series? The one where every Jedi can Force Push entire armies?
K.
Lol at the Barsen'thor stalemating Yoda. Yoda puts him down then goes to help Mace. And also wasn't the HoT DS?
Someone hasn't played TOR obviously.
And no, HoT is the Jedi Knight class protagonist.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This isn't a brownie point for you since your assertion Yoda will win using just the Force remains unproven. Whether or not he's a total pacifist isn't my argument, and your strawmanning is ridiculous.Proof?
You mean in the 2003 CW series? The one where every Jedi can Force Push entire armies?
K.
Someone hasn't played TOR obviously.
And no, HoT is the Jedi Knight class protagonist.
Yes it is. Its not like Yoda's more morally opposed to killing Force Users than non-force users.
Every Jedi cannot force push entire armies. Aayla and numerous other Jedi get trapped by crab droids, Kenobi struggles against Durge, ect. ect. Only Mace and Yoda dominate armies which is fine.
No I have. And the Barsen'thor also would rather talk someone down than use the force to kill someone. In fact by that logic the Barsen'thor has never used TK to kill someone either.
But Tol Braga is canonically dead.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes it is. Its not like Yoda's more morally opposed to killing Force Users than non-force users.
Are you intentionally missing the point or just accidentally?
[list][*] Yoda does not normally kill. Sidious is about the only real exception among Force users, and he does not kill him with the Force alone. Indeed, the large majority of Yoda's dominance is established with his lightsaber.
[*] In his battle against Dooku, Yoda could not/did not win through Force alone, but had to resort to using his lightsaber.
[*] Yoda has never killed a Force user just using the Force.
[*] Muggles don't have Force resistance, and are notably less tanky.
[*] You haven't shown evidence of Yoda killing or incapacitating a Force user. The only example I can think of is disarming Ventress, who is well below either hero Mace and Yoda are up against here.[/list]
Every Jedi cannot force push entire armies. Aayla and numerous other Jedi get trapped by crab droids, Kenobi struggles against Durge, ect. ect. Only Mace and Yoda dominate armies which is fine.
But you ignore that the series is both questionably no longer canon and grossly exaggerates feats. If Yoda and Mace had TK like that, all enemies of the Jedi would be thrown into orbit or smashed against the wall into pieces. Geonosis wouldn't have had a single fatality.
But wait, it did. And they didn't. So therefore it stands to reason they can't.
No I have.
Really? Then how could you confuse the Hero of Tython with a dark-sider?
And the Barsen'thor also would rather talk someone down than use the force to kill someone. In fact by that logic the Barsen'thor has never used TK to kill someone either.
But Tol Braga is canonically dead.
LS HoT can turn Tol Braga back to the light side, IIRC. In any case, you're strawmanning again, in an attempt to make my points seem ridiculous and 'win', despite the fact that what I took most issue with was your bogus "YODA POD IS FASTUR" comment that was explicitly bogus and disproven with canon evidence. If you're going to lie and misrepresent the most widely available source to us all about your favorite character, why should I believe your opinion of how he stacks up against these two?
I made the argument that the HoT is dark side canonically. What Stark means is that in the Imperial Agent storyline, someone says that Tol Braga is dead after Corellia. Since killing Tol Braga or getting him killed is a DS choice, it stands to reason the HoT is a dark sider.
Also Scourge says the HoT is touched by darkness when you first meet him, regardless of your gameplay alignment and his vision heavily implies the HoT becoming the next Sith Emperor IMHO.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I made the argument that the HoT is dark side canonically. What Stark means is that in the Imperial Agent storyline, someone says that Tol Braga is dead after Corellia. Since killing Tol Braga or getting him killed is a DS choice, it stands to reason the HoT is a dark sider.Also Scourge says the HoT is touched by darkness when you first meet him, regardless of your gameplay alignment and his vision heavily implies the HoT becoming the next Sith Emperor IMHO.
Hrm. Interesting. Hadn't gotten that far with my IA (I need to though, love that class) and I had forgotten the Scourge comment.
Originally posted by Intrepid37Anakin couldn't breach Kenobi's defense despite being empowered by rage. Dooku choked him during duel despite having Anakin behind, there was no time to focus extreme amount of concentration.
No, it's a lot harder to breach an aura than you think. It takes an extreme amount of concentration to do so.
This:
Luke extended himself toward the glow, slamming his Force presence into Welk. It was like trying to push Qoribu out of orbit. Welk continued to come, bringing his blade around in a brazen full-reach attack.
Luke didn't even try to block. The Dark Jedi was strong-even stronger than Saba had said-but great strength was like great power. It seduced those who had it, lulled them into relying on might when other tools were better. Luke reversed tactics, pulling his attacker toward him. Welk tumbled forward, his hoarse voice croaking in alarm, his scarred face dropping toward Alema's silver blade.
...
Luke reached out in the Force, bringing his thumb and forefinger together.
Welk's lipless mouth fell open. Dire gurgling sounds began to rise from his throat-and then Luke remembered Alema's sacrifice of the membrosia giver. Had he grown that casual about killing? So accustomed to the power he wielded that he would use it to kill when he had other means to defend himself?
This passage demonstrates well how Force defense works. Luke was umable to push Welk, yet succeeded in Force pulling. And while Force pushing Welk was compared to "trying to push Qoribu out of orbit", he was still able to catch him with Force choke without any extreme concentration. It's all about outwitting opponent.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
-snip-
Yoda's TK feats are better than the Barsen'thor. Also the Barsen'thor hasn't ever put someone down with the force either so your point is moot. At worst Yoda would just deflect all of the Barsen'thor's attacks back in his face with more power.
Also regardless of whether the HoT is a LS guy or a DS (personally I think he's a Lightsider with a ton of inner darkness not dissimilar to Mace himself) Mace's Vaapad will be useful against him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I made the argument that the HoT is dark side canonically. What Stark means is that in the Imperial Agent storyline, someone says that Tol Braga is dead after Corellia. Since killing Tol Braga or getting him killed is a DS choice, it stands to reason the HoT is a dark sider.Also Scourge says the HoT is touched by darkness when you first meet him, regardless of your gameplay alignment and his vision heavily implies the HoT becoming the next Sith Emperor IMHO.
I don't think that will ever happen. HoT will never become the next Emperor...it just wouldn't work story wise.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda's TK feats are better than the Barsen'thor. Also the Barsen'thor hasn't ever put someone down with the force either so your point is moot. At worst Yoda would just deflect all of the Barsen'thor's attacks back in his face with more power.Also regardless of whether the HoT is a LS guy or a DS (personally I think he's a Lightsider with a ton of inner darkness not dissimilar to Mace himself) Mace's Vaapad will be useful against him.
I don't think that will ever happen. HoT will never become the next Emperor...it just wouldn't work story wise.
Only his CW mini feats are superior imo. Also the Barsen'thor definitely has killed people with the Force. The class descriptions are all about the Consular fighting with 'startling feats of telekinesis' "manipulating massive forces to disable or even destroy their enemies" and "moving massive waves of energy that tear apart [opponents]". You can't really deflect TK.
Meh, I'm not so sure about that.
Again, I'm not so sure. I could see them going that route at the very end of game.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is misleading assessment.Yoda's supposed superiority over Barsen'thor appears to be superficial in the matters of the Force. On top of this, Yoda is restricted to use his lightsaber in this duel.
Mace have no advantage over HoT in any aspect either, I am not sure if Vaapad works against light-siders (most likely not).
I am leaning towards Team 2 after a good fight.
I concede that I didn't read the OP, so it seems Mace/HoT can't use Force Attacks, and Yoda/Barsen don't have their lightsabers. This fight got a bit more interesting.
However, Team 1 will still win. Yoda has smashed two C-9979 landing crafts into one another, pushed multiple armored assault tanks back into their cargo hold, sent dozens of troopers flying with a Force Wave, and easily broke the force defenses of Ventress--Disarming her casually. These telekinetic feats are just as potent as the Barsen's, and Yoda's ability in all other aspects of the Force (Foresight, Tutaminis, etc.) are all above the likeness of what the Barsen'thor has shown. He's also a better unarmed combatant.
As for the Hero of Tython and Mace--The Hero's best shot was his sheer raw power, which even Vitiate found admirable. In a contest of pure saber ability, the Hero honestly has little against Mace.
The Hero has defeated Praven, who was greater than even one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order, while still relatively early in the game. He's also beaten Scourge--Who even the Dark Council fears--Through merit of lightsaber skill, and he even cut down the Imperial Guard on his way to Vitiate. However, Mace is one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order's history and casually defeated Sora Bulq--Who was also one of the most experienced and skilled lightsaber instructors ever produced by the Order--And he has even matched Palpatine--A master of all 7 forms and the strongest of all Sith--in a bout of sheer skill.
In truth, this will be a pretty close battle--But Team 1 will win.