Mace and Yoda vs HoT and Barsenthor

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is misleading assessment.

Yoda's supposed superiority over Barsen'thor appears to be superficial in the matters of the Force. On top of this, Yoda is restricted to use his lightsaber in this duel.

Mace have no advantage over HoT in any aspect either, I am not sure if Vaapad works against light-siders (most likely not).

I am leaning towards Team 2 after a good fight.

I concede that I didn't read the OP, so it seems Mace/HoT can't use Force Attacks, and Yoda/Barsen don't have their lightsabers. This fight got a bit more interesting.

However, Team 1 will still win. Yoda has smashed two C-9979 landing crafts into one another, pushed multiple armored assault tanks back into their cargo hold, sent dozens of troopers flying with a Force Wave, and easily broke the force defenses of Ventress--Disarming her casually. These telekinetic feats are just as potent as the Barsen's, and Yoda's ability in all other aspects of the Force (Foresight, Tutaminis, etc.) are all above the likeness of what the Barsen'thor has shown. He's also a better unarmed combatant.

As for the Hero of Tython and Mace--The Hero's best shot was his sheer raw power, which even Vitiate found admirable. In a contest of pure saber ability, the Hero honestly has little against Mace.

The Hero has defeated Praven, who was greater than even one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order, while still relatively early in the game. He's also beaten Scourge--Who even the Dark Council fears--Through merit of lightsaber skill, and he even cut down the Imperial Guard on his way to Vitiate. However, Mace is one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order's history and casually defeated Sora Bulq--Who was also one of the most experienced and skilled lightsaber instructors ever produced by the Order--And he has even matched Palpatine--A master of all 7 forms and the strongest of all Sith--in a bout of sheer skill.

As for the Vaapad bullshit, you do know it's primary purpose is to channel Mace's own inner darkness, yes? A secondary conduit is not needed.

In truth, this will be a pretty close battle--But Team 1 will win.

EDIT: Crap, accidental double post. Sorry.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda kills the Barsen'thor then TKs HoT to the wall while Mace kills him.

When have Yoda ever managed to kill an individual of great power?

For all his power, Yoda is not as effective combatant as he should be. In-fact, Yoda is disappointing IMO.

Also, you think that Barsen'thor is easy to overwhelm?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Smashes through a huge blast door.

Have a good look at the damage that Barsen'thor inflicted with a gesture without any difficulty and this event occurred during the early phase of his story arc. By the end of his story arc...

In addition, Barsen'thor have excellent combat record, defeated dark side prodigies such as Vivicar and First Son.

Yoda needs much more then this TK abilities to overwhelm Barsen'thor and I don't think he is as smart as Barsen'thor in the matters of combat.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Every Jedi cannot force push entire armies. Aayla and numerous other Jedi get trapped by crab droids, Kenobi struggles against Durge, ect. ect. Only Mace and Yoda dominate armies which is fine.

CW mini series is not a reliable medium for assessment of capabilities of Jedi. Some actions in it are not acknowledged in written literature.

You're asking for Yoda's showings against opponents of great power? How about stalemating the most powerful Sith Lord that ever lived? 🙄

That blast door feat isn't as good as the ones I've aforementioned on Yoda's case. Also--You're saying Yoda will need much more than TK to defeat the Barsen'thor? The Barsen has nothing *but* TK feats, dude.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's bullshit. Force users anticipate Force attacks like any other attacks and form appropriate defense in response. Kenobi was simply caught off guard by that choke.

Beg your pardon but no, it is not.

Shatterpoint pg. 243:

"Jedi Padawans learn to counter Force kinesis before they even begin lightsaber training."

Darth Bane Path of Destruction pg. 128

"One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them."

That being said, a smart fighter can breach the shield by attacking from an unexpected angle, like your example of Luke vs. Welk.

Anyway, regarding Yoda vs. Barsen'thor, keep in mind that she fought Vivicar after fighting through a ship full of soldiers, while she had previously drained her own power by shielding several Jedi from the Dark Plague (it was specified that the energy she spent shielding said Jedi would only return to her when Vivicar was dead) and Vivicar was siphoning power from hundreds of Jedi.

And she still beat him.

So I'd say the Barsen'thor is stronger than Yoda.

team 1 wins....
weilding Vaapad against the light is no hard feat....created from Juyo...remember Mace can use his
inner darkness to fuel Vaapad....when you have no emotion to draw from....draw from within....

Mace has TK skills read about Grievous and Kar....and pushing an AT -TE walker off a cliff...
levitating 2 clone troopers w/the Force acoss the length of a bridge(with no bridge across a chasm)

he demonstrated his proficiency in the application of the Force wave....
Shatter Point....

it will be a close battle , I agree 100%,but team 1 will win....

They said you couldn't use Juyo against a light sider....you can
and Vaapad is no different in this situation....

Originally posted by juyomaster34

Mace has TK skills read about Grievous and Kar....and pushing an AT -TE walker off a cliff...
levitating 2 clone troopers w/the Force acoss the length of a bridge(with no bridge across a chasm)

he demonstrated his proficiency in the application of the Force wave....
Shatter Point....

The OP specified that neither Mace nor the Hero of Tython can use offensive Force powers.

okay...I'll reread the first thread.....

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon but no, it is not.

Shatterpoint pg. 243:

"Jedi Padawans learn to counter Force kinesis before they even begin lightsaber training."

Darth Bane Path of Destruction pg. 128

"One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them."

That being said, a smart fighter can breach the shield by attacking from an unexpected angle, like your example of Luke vs. Welk.

Anyway, regarding Yoda vs. Barsen'thor, keep in mind that she fought Vivicar after fighting through a ship full of soldiers, while she had previously drained her own power by shielding several Jedi from the Dark Plague (it was specified that the energy she spent shielding said Jedi would only return to her when Vivicar was dead) and Vivicar was siphoning power from hundreds of Jedi.

And she still beat him.

So I'd say the Barsen'thor is stronger than Yoda.

Yoda fights through battle droid armies and the casually disarms ventress for breakfast.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda fights through battle droid armies and the casually disarms ventress for breakfast.

In the CW mini where everyone was exaggerated. As Legend accurately put, Yoda wasn't able to solo a droid army in the very first episode of the CGI CW show. Casually pwning Ventress is cool, though any top tier person should be capable of doing that. The Barsen'thor could.

Also its not like the Barsen'thor doesn't fight through armies. Corellia is just her non-stop taking out "impenetrable" fortresses by herself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the CW mini where everyone was exaggerated. As Legend accurately put, Yoda wasn't able to solo a droid army in the very first episode of the CGI CW show. Casually pwning Ventress is cool, though any top tier person should be capable of doing that. The Barsen'thor could.

What are you talking about? He did solo it. Every single unit sans for a few Destroyer droids, which he could have ended in any number of ways.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the CW mini where everyone was exaggerated. As Legend accurately put, Yoda wasn't able to solo a droid army in the very first episode of the CGI CW show. Casually pwning Ventress is cool, though any top tier person should be capable of doing that. The Barsen'thor could.

Not really a valid argument saying that because Yoda did it then Barsen'thor should also be able to do it Imho.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
What are you talking about? He did solo it. Every single unit sans for a few Destroyer droids, which he could have ended in any number of ways.

You know what I meant. He resorted to trickery and taking advantage of the droids utter incompetence. He didn't just run in and demolish them with Force Waves or chew through them like a buzzcutter.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really a valid argument saying that because Yoda did it then Barsen'thor should also be able to do it Imho.

Good thing thats not what I said then.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You know what I meant. He resorted to trickery and taking advantage of the droids utter incompetence. He didn't just run in and demolish them with Force Waves or chew through them like a buzzcutter.

Yes he did that exactly.
watch?v=wmwWKrtPW9g

He cuts through one tank's crew, moves on to the next and has it destroy the empty tank by firing at him. Then rips out the crew of the second tank, then he outright cuts the last tank in half. All while slicing and dicing the infantry. Where does he resort to trickery?

Also Filoni blatantly says the reason he didn't do more episodes with Yoda is because his presence means it won't be much of a battle. Why? Because Yoda by himself can route entire armies.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda fights through battle droid armies and the casually disarms ventress for breakfast.

And your point is?

I mean yes, it's impressive but like I said, Vivicar was siphoning the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters. Was Ventress doing that? No she wasn't.

Also like I said, the Barsen'thor had used her shielding ability to protect multiple Jedi from Vivicar's madness-inducing plague. Specifically she shielded six Jedi and had to use the ability on Yuon twice. It was stated that each use of the technique weakened her and she wouldn't regain the energy she expended until Vivicar was defeated (it is repeatedly stated how pale and weak she looks after each shielding).

Was Yoda in such a drastically weakened state when he fought through those armies? No, he wasn't.

So again, I see the Barsen'thor as stronger than Yoda.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You're asking for Yoda's showings against opponents of great power? How about stalemating the most powerful Sith Lord that ever lived? 🙄

Yoda, for all his power and knowledge, have not been able to capitalize on his abilities properly during combat situations (I get this impression from his performances). His shortcomings are psychological perhaps.

Barsen'thor, on the other hand, have defeated even "masters of the Force." This is indication of extremely smart decision-making potential, great power and talent pool on part of Barsen'thor on the whole.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That blast door feat isn't as good as the ones I've aforementioned on Yoda's case.

In case of Yoda, we have seen his best.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also--You're saying Yoda will need much more than TK to defeat the Barsen'thor? The Barsen has nothing *but* TK feats, dude.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
And your point is?

I mean yes, it's impressive but like I said, Vivicar was siphoning the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters. Was Ventress doing that? No she wasn't.

Unquantifiable increase in power. Vitiate siphoned the power of thousands of Sith, and yet is still inferior to Sidious.

Also like I said, the Barsen'thor had used her shielding ability to protect multiple Jedi from Vivicar's madness-inducing plague. Specifically she shielded six Jedi and had to use the ability on Yuon twice. It was stated that each use of the technique weakened her and she wouldn't regain the energy she expended until Vivicar was defeated (it is repeatedly stated how pale and weak she looks after each shielding).

And Yoda resisted a Sith Ritual from Darths Tyranus and Sidious while weakened on a Dark Side Nexus.

Was Yoda in such a drastically weakened state when he fought through those armies? No, he wasn't.

Their completely different feats.

So again, I see the Barsen'thor as stronger than Yoda.

Yoda has destroyed fully loaded 150m long transports, TK'ed Darth Sidious, reflected Darth Sidious' lightning, resisted a ritual from Darths Tyranus and Sidious designed to kill him while standing on one of the greatest Dark Side nexuses in the galaxy, solo'd armies, forced Dooku in retreat while not even using the Force offensively, casually owned Ventress who has in turn made a mockery of some of the most powerful Masters in the Order's 25,000 year history. What more do you need?

The Barsen'thor on the otherhand has been blasted by lightning by the Children of the Emperor, and has only shown a defense against lightning ala lightsaber. So unless you think Yoda's force abilities are inferior to a generic child of the Emperor, he's getting past the Barsen'thor's defences.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes he did that exactly.
watch?v=wmwWKrtPW9g

He cuts through one tank's crew, moves on to the next and has it destroy the empty tank by firing at him. Then rips out the crew of the second tank, then he outright cuts the last tank in half. All while slicing and dicing the infantry. Where does he resort to trickery?

Also Filoni blatantly says the reason he didn't do more episodes with Yoda is because his presence means it won't be much of a battle. Why? Because Yoda by himself can route entire armies.

No, he didn't.

He tricked them into coming into range and caught them off guard. Plus they ****ing suck. The CIS droids are bar none the least threatening troops in Star Wars.

Bottom line: I don't rate defeating 30 retarded robots highly at all. These guys are utter jokes.

Whereas the Barsen'thor fought through real troops and real armies. Like when she fought through a Star Destroyer of mentally-controlled Republic soldiers, while weakened and still defeated a Sith Lord empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
[B]Unquantifiable increase in power. Vitiate siphoned the power of thousands of Sith, and yet is still inferior to Sidious.[/n]

Because most of it goes to maintaining his immortality.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Unquantifiable increase in power. Vitiate siphoned the power of thousands of Sith, and yet is still inferior to Sidious.

Nonetheless, Sith Emperor siphons power of others to maintain his immortality and distribute his power among others to increase his reach across the galaxy.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The Barsen'thor on the otherhand has been blasted by lightning by the Children of the Emperor, and has only shown a defense against lightning ala lightsaber. So unless you think Yoda's force abilities are inferior to a generic child of the Emperor, he's getting past the Barsen'thor's defences.

Also, in the game, even HoT tackles Sith lightning with his lightsaber. However, this could be a game engine limitation. Consider the case of Revan; no one knew that he could pull Yoda with Sith lightning from his actions in the game until he was featured in literature.

Both HoT and Barsen'thor are logically expected to have amazing understanding the Force as well.

Originally posted by Lord Stark

Yoda has destroyed fully loaded 150m long transports, TK'ed Darth Sidious, reflected Darth Sidious' lightning, resisted a ritual from Darths Tyranus and Sidious designed to kill him while standing on one of the greatest Dark Side nexuses in the galaxy, solo'd armies, forced Dooku in retreat while not even using the Force offensively, casually owned Ventress who has in turn made a mockery of some of the most powerful Masters in the Order's 25,000 year history. What more do you need?

And that's all Yoda in his very old age. It makes me wonder how powerful he was in his prime. He probably rivaled NJO Luke. Make that Yoda movie Disney!

Yoda already rivals NJO Luke. 😬