Mace and Yoda vs HoT and Barsenthor

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Filoni's series is higher canon than novels, games, or comics, to be sure. That's not in question.

Which, as I said, has Maul and Savage flooring armies and Mace reducing a large group of destroyer droids to scrap with a mere force push.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What IS in question is the CW miniseries, which is over ten years old, animated with an exaggerated style that breaks the suspension of disbelief surrounding other 'equally valid' canon, and seems to not jive with the longer lasting, newer Clone Wars series.

Some of it is exaggerated, but I don't see how in Yoda's case. In the newer series, Sidious comes through easily ragdolling and outright overpowering force users who can move ships with the force while laughing his ass off, which pretty much shows a large gap in power, so why is it hard to assume that Yoda, who is Sidious equal, can move much larger objects than his inferiors can?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In terms of G-canon conflicts, newer content overrides older content. Unless there's something explicit which says the Force usage in the miniseries is legit (and somehow explains the holding back present elsewhere), I see no reason to entertain it as valid, consistent evidence.

If we toss out feats on account of something we didn't see on Geonosis, which is what Filoni was suggesting, then that would include many of the feats we see in Filoni's series and it's tie-in comics such as the ones I listed above. We didn't see Mace turning large numbers of droids to scrap with force pushes. Even if he did, no, he probably would not have soloed the entire army, but he could have potentially prevented a lot of casualties on his side.

As far as I know, there isn't anything explicit which says Windu was holding back his powers during the battle on Geonosis. But, he was using the force pretty recklessly during his battle on Dantooine in the miniseries, which is something he wouldn't do with other jedi surrounding him. While you can question why not just send Mace Windu instead of 200 other jedi in the first place, I can respond to that and say, maybe they weren't intending to do battle, but was hoping Dooku would cower before a large number of force users. In any case, all I'm saying is, if we dismiss it solely on account of it not happening in the movies, then the same standard should apply with his feats in the newer series as well, along with Maul's feats, unless we are to assume Maul's TK is more far more potent than Mace's which I highly doubt.

My problem is how the PT fans get called out for being biased, but we're not the ones who dismiss feats like Revan's meteor shower just because he didn't do anything remotely comparable in his novel. As far as I know, most of us accept it as canon, despite the fact that game mechanics are usually exaggerated.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku getting ambushed by 30 pirates. That's in the commentary to that episode.

Which was just stupid and very bad writing. Hell, Krell floors about 20 clones of the 501st (which I assume are more threatening than 30 drunken pirates) who had him surrounded at gun point, with Krell not having his sabers out yet.

Dooku should have been able to down them with TK, and then proceed to finish them with lightning, considering Dooku's other feats.

I get that Filoni wanted to show that force users are not invincible, but he could have went about that in another way.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which was just stupid and very bad writing. Hell, Krell floors about 20 clones of the 501st (which I assume are more threatening than 30 drunken pirates) who had him surrounded at gun point, with Krell not having his sabers out yet.

Dooku should have been able to down them with TK, and then proceed to finish them with lightning, considering Dooku's other feats.

I get that Filoni wanted to show that force users are not invincible, but he could have went about that in another way.

Yeah he wants to show force users aren't invincible...but then he has Krell pwning the 501st, and having them need to use trickery to capture him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which was just stupid and very bad writing. Hell, Krell floors about 20 clones of the 501st (which I assume are more threatening than 30 drunken pirates) who had him surrounded at gun point, with Krell not having his sabers out yet.

I'm guessing the difference is that Krell had his sabers on him whilst Dooku didn't. Plus the multiple Sabers may have helped in deflecting blasts from all sides simultaneously?

Also I think the pirates are more lethal then you give them credit for considering Hondo did fight Anakin Skywalker one on one in Season 1. Sure Skywalker was probably holding back loads, but still I doubt any drunk noob could manage that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also I think the pirates are more lethal then you give them credit for considering Hondo did fight Anakin Skywalker one on one in Season 1. Sure Skywalker was probably holding back loads, but still I doubt any drunk noob could manage that.

Is that supposed to make it less stupid and badly written?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm guessing the difference is that Krell had his sabers on him whilst Dooku didn't. Plus the multiple Sabers may have helped in deflecting blasts from all sides simultaneously?

Yeah, I don't think so. Dooku is supposed to be one of the top 3 force masters in the galaxy. And Krell had no issues flooring all the troopers who came to arrest him.

Tbf, the troopers just got back up again and started shooting. What was Dooku gonna do after flooring them?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tbf, the troopers just got back up again and started shooting. What was Dooku gonna do after flooring them?

Force lightning? Force choke?

On all 30 of them? Sure, I think he might be able to kill them all and dodge enough blaster bolts to pull it off, but its an unnecessary risk.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which, as I said, has Maul and Savage flooring armies and Mace reducing a large group of destroyer droids to scrap with a mere force push.

Some of it is exaggerated, but I don't see how in Yoda's case. In the newer series, Sidious comes through easily ragdolling and outright overpowering force users who can move ships with the force while laughing his ass off, which pretty much shows a large gap in power, so why is it hard to assume that Yoda, who is Sidious equal, can move much larger objects than his inferiors can?

If we toss out feats on account of something we didn't see on Geonosis, which is what Filoni was suggesting, then that would include many of the feats we see in Filoni's series and it's tie-in comics such as the ones I listed above. We didn't see Mace turning large numbers of droids to scrap with force pushes. Even if he did, no, he probably would not have soloed the entire army, but he could have potentially prevented a lot of casualties on his side.

As far as I know, there isn't anything explicit which says Windu was holding back his powers during the battle on Geonosis. But, he was using the force pretty recklessly during his battle on Dantooine in the miniseries, which is something he wouldn't do with other jedi surrounding him. While you can question why not just send Mace Windu instead of 200 other jedi in the first place, I can respond to that and say, maybe they weren't intending to do battle, but was hoping Dooku would cower before a large number of force users. In any case, all I'm saying is, if we dismiss it solely on account of it not happening in the movies, then the same standard should apply with his feats in the newer series as well, along with Maul's feats, unless we are to assume Maul's TK is more far more potent than Mace's which I highly doubt.

My problem is how the PT fans get called out for being biased, but we're not the ones who dismiss feats like Revan's meteor shower just because he didn't do anything remotely comparable in his novel. As far as I know, most of us accept it as canon, despite the fact that game mechanics are usually exaggerated.

I think you're confusing something here: it's not an issue of power creep or powers as the plot demands; it's an issue of inconsistent usage before and after.

Revan chucking meteors is an example of power creep and powers as the plot demands. It's not game mechanics, because no such ability exists for the player to control or deviate from; it's a scripted event using the game's engine (which is used to make all cutscenes in the entire game). The fact that it happens regardless of player input, player choice, or random circumstance dictates that it is a canon path to all potential interpretations of the game.

Even then, this is not a major issue of inconsistency, because the scale is not grossly exaggerated compared to other media, and there is not a complete lack of the same powers being used chronologically later in the series by the same character.

Yoda, meanwhile, can destroy entire armada's of small ships with a wave of his hand in the Mini series, something he cannot seemingly replicate before and after in canon. Given that holding back against droids is not something the Jedi are known for (he even kills Clone troopers near the Jedi temple with abandon), it makes zero sense for Yoda to not use these immense TK powers in other situations.

To simply assume he can because of a blatantly exaggerated piece of media that has feats not done anywhere else is simply confirmation bias, not objectivity. You cannot reconcile the mini feats with anything before and after without explicit plot information which details how and or at least why the Force is suddenly larger and more powerful in scope when used by the same characters.

And we all know you can't reconcile that, so clinging to the series as proof is as fallacious as saying Ventress can dance through a rainstorm without getting wet (The Cestus Deception) when she's never shown having such ability elsewhere.

Originally posted by Nephthys
On all 30 of them? Sure, I think he might be able to kill them all and dodge enough blaster bolts to pull it off, but its an unnecessary risk.

I suppose...but I am pretty sure he could make an escape ala Force repulse and force speed.

Force adepts can generally get out of most situations with clever Force use. But they don't because plot.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Force adepts can generally get out of most situations with clever Force use. But they don't because plot.

So you are for Force users when I am not arguing in their favor.

I see how it is, Neph.

What I'm saying is that you can always go 'if they just used the Force like this then they could win!' Dooku could also hulk jump out of there after flooring them. But its not that easy and Force users just aren't as good at using the Force in creative, strategic ways as some people think they are.

Which seems pretty stupid when you consider that Obi-Wan can use the Force to open a door, or Qui-Gon can use it to change a dice roll in midair or shut off robots with a gesture.

I think the best conclusion is the simplest one: that despite Jedi having lifelong training in the Force, writers are just inconsistent morons.

Obi-Wan says in The Jedi Path that its actually really hard to use the Force in combat. When they're standing still and have full concentration its probably simple. Not so much when you're trying to keep track of multiple opponents, focus on your precog, amp your speed and reflexes, run around alot and then try to concentrate enough to move something with your mind.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan says in The Jedi Path that its actually really hard to use the Force in combat. When they're standing still and have full concentration its probably simple. Not so much when you're trying to keep track of multiple opponents, focus on your precog, amp your speed and reflexes, run around alot and then try to concentrate enough to move something with your mind.

The difference is Tyranus has twice the force power and experience than Kenobi.

And I said that Tyranus might well be able to pull off taking out 30 combatants with just the Force. But it isn't 'lol Force pwn all the things'.

I brought up Kenobi to point out that its not simple to use the Force mid-combat, so most of the time they're not going to be doing complex and creative Force strategies. Especially with no lightsaber in Dooku's case.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan says in The Jedi Path that its actually really hard to use the Force in combat. When they're standing still and have full concentration its probably simple. Not so much when you're trying to keep track of multiple opponents, focus on your precog, amp your speed and reflexes, run around alot and then try to concentrate enough to move something with your mind.

In the case of fighting Force users, this makes sense, because they have similar powers. Against muggles, this makes no sense. You can outfight and outmaneuever droids and robots and shit with the Force, and untrained noobies like Luke and Ani can do improbable piloting/aiming skills, but lifelong Jedi monks can't overpower muggle group/badass XYZ because it's "really hard".

Just admit that SW writers are morons. You'll be happier for it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I said that Tyranus might well be able to pull off taking out 30 combatants with just the Force. But it isn't 'lol Force pwn all the things'.

I brought up Kenobi to point out that its not simple to use the Force mid-combat, so most of the time they're not going to be doing complex and creative Force strategies. Especially with no lightsaber in Dooku's case.

See that'd be all fine and good if it weren't for the fact that all 30 of them were stationary and yapping (which should have given the Count time to focus/ formulate a strat)