Mace and Yoda vs HoT and Barsenthor

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Against muggles, this makes no sense. You can outfight and outmaneuever droids and robots and shit with the Force,

That they can doesn't mean its not hard to do whilst getting shot at.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and untrained noobies like Luke and Ani can do improbable piloting/aiming skills,

Lol, Skywalkers. And Bane could headshot 5 guys a mile away in under a second or two while blinded. Powerful untrained Force users just do that shit.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
but lifelong Jedi monks can't overpower muggle group/badass XYZ because it's "really hard".

"Its hard to use the Force as a weapon while using the lightsaber as one too." - Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The Force is like a third arm thats harder to use. Its difficult trying to move 3 arms at once while under pressure of gunfire, paying attention to extra-sensory preceptions, keeping track of groups of people all at once, trying not to stand still and amping yourself with the Force.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
See that'd be all fine and good if it weren't for the fact that all 30 of them were stationary and yapping (which should have given the Count time to focus/ formulate a strat)

As I said, plot. Besides, why risk it when he could wait for a better opportunity.

You can't admit it, can you?

I've already said that its partially a plot thing. Rarely in any media does a character operate at peak efficiency and use their powers to deal with every situation like a baws. Because then there wouldn't be a story.

Those writers are stupid though. Dooku should have used his aneurism powers from Dark Rendezvous to kill all the pirates in a second after force crushing their grenades and while levitating in front of the sun to hinder their eyesight. What a bunch of noobz.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Those writers are stupid though. Dooku should have used his aneurism powers from Dark Rendezvous to kill all the pirates in a second after force crushing their grenades and while levitating in front of the sun to hinder their eyesight. What a bunch of noobz.

👆

Spoiler:
Now Barriss owns all of the Muggle Bounty Hunters.

I'm gonna make that respect thread one day. Then you'll see. Doooouche.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm gonna make that respect thread one day. Then you'll see. Doooouche.

To be fair, Filoni did say Dooku would have taken out most of the pirates (even without his Saber) but chances are that one of them would have hit him.

You have to remember Jango Fett and Pre-Viszla can go toe to toe with Kenobi and Maul one on one. So Dooku surrendering to 30 pirates who have ambushed and surrounded him when he doesn't even have his Sabers is really not that bad or that inconsistent.

Mace also lost to a group of unarmed, regular people in the Clone Wars Adventures.

And Yoda one time got trapped in a droid.

/lowball.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I think you're confusing something here: it's not an issue of power creep or powers as the plot demands; it's an issue of inconsistent usage before and after.

Revan chucking meteors is an example of power creep and powers as the plot demands. It's [b]not game mechanics, because no such ability exists for the player to control or deviate from; it's a scripted event using the game's engine (which is used to make all cutscenes in the entire game). The fact that it happens regardless of player input, player choice, or random circumstance dictates that it is a canon path to all potential interpretations of the game.

Even then, this is not a major issue of inconsistency, because the scale is not grossly exaggerated compared to other media, and there is not a complete lack of the same powers being used chronologically later in the series by the same character.

Yoda, meanwhile, can destroy entire armada's of small ships with a wave of his hand in the Mini series, something he cannot seemingly replicate before and after in canon. Given that holding back against droids is not something the Jedi are known for (he even kills Clone troopers near the Jedi temple with abandon), it makes zero sense for Yoda to not use these immense TK powers in other situations.

To simply assume he can because of a blatantly exaggerated piece of media that has feats not done anywhere else is simply confirmation bias, not objectivity. You cannot reconcile the mini feats with anything before and after without explicit plot information which details how and or at least why the Force is suddenly larger and more powerful in scope when used by the same characters.

And we all know you can't reconcile that, so clinging to the series as proof is as fallacious as saying Ventress can dance through a rainstorm without getting wet (The Cestus Deception) when she's never shown having such ability elsewhere. [/B]

The problem is, though, that Revan's meteor-chucking feat qualifies as much as Yoda's ability to smash Separatist drop ships. As was pointed out, it's inconsistent with his other feats.

Trying to confine this to the movies is also an example of confirmation bias.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is, though, that Revan's meteor-chucking feat qualifies as much as Yoda's ability to smash Separatist drop ships. As was pointed out, it's inconsistent with his other feats.

Reread what I said. The chief issue isn't Yoda being that strong; it's the inconsistency before and after which is the huge issue.

It's possible to reconcile a power creep, as I stated. TOR is a showcase of power creep over KotOR, which in turn was a power creep over the PT.

However, Yoda's feat is not consistent with a power creep; it's instead isolated within a piece of media that has content both before and after which grossly contradict it.

Trying to confine this to the movies is also an example of confirmation bias.

Yoda, with concentration, can seal off a vacuum of space or redirect an orbital missile strike. Actually, the latter was, IIRC, while he was dueling Dark Side nexus Dooku. But the idea that he can do X or defeat X because in the Mini Series he played galactic puppetmaster with some drop ships is a ridiculous argument, chiefly because the medium in quest calls into question gross incompetence on behalf of Jedi and Yoda elsewhere.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I think you're confusing something here: it's not an issue of power creep or powers as the plot demands; it's an issue of inconsistent usage before and after.

Again, in Yoda's case, I don't see how it's inconsistent when we see far inferior force users consistently use the force on a far larger level than Yoda did in the movies (except for shoving Sidious over his desk).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Revan chucking meteors is an example of power creep and powers as the plot demands. It's [b]not game mechanics, because no such ability exists for the player to control or deviate from; it's a scripted event using the game's engine (which is used to make all cutscenes in the entire game). The fact that it happens regardless of player input, player choice, or random circumstance dictates that it is a canon path to all potential interpretations of the game.[/B]

Game mechanics wasn't the word I was looking for. But in any case, I'm not arguing that it should be considered non-canon, just that we don't see him do anything like that elsewhere, as far as I know.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Even then, this is not a major issue of inconsistency, because the scale is not grossly exaggerated compared to other media, and there is not a complete lack of the same powers being used chronologically later in the series by the same character.

Yoda's force usage is not grossly exaggerated when we consider the feats of his inferiors in the newer series.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yoda, meanwhile, can destroy entire armada's of small ships with a wave of his hand in the Mini series, something he cannot seemingly replicate before and after in canon. Given that holding back against droids is not something the Jedi are known for (he even kills Clone troopers near the Jedi temple with abandon), it makes zero sense for Yoda to not use these immense TK powers in other situations.

To simply assume he can because of a blatantly exaggerated piece of media that has feats not done anywhere else is simply confirmation bias, not objectivity. You cannot reconcile the mini feats with anything before and after without explicit plot information which details how and or at least why the Force is suddenly larger and more powerful in scope when used by the same characters.

It's like you ignored everything I said? I'm not saying we accept every single feat in the mini series just because they happened in them. That's not my argument, because, yes, some of it is exaggerated. I'm giving you a logical explanation as to why Yoda's feats in the mini series are not really exaggerated.

When was Yoda in a desperate situation where the plot demanded that he use the force heavily but was unable to? His and Kenobi's attempt to sneak their way to the jedi temple, was just that, an attempt to sneak their way through without the sith knowing of their presence. Using large amounts of force energy would have likely alerted Sidious of their presence. But of course you won't accept that explanation, but yet when it comes to characters like Kun who didn't kill with his all-powerful blasts when he was there to actually kill his opponents, you expected me to accept your explanation that Kun was just trolling them, which I did accept. Why is it hard to accept my logical explanation as to why Yoda's feats in the mini series shouldn't be feats that are above his level?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is, though, that Revan's meteor-chucking feat qualifies as much as Yoda's ability to smash Separatist drop ships. As was pointed out, it's inconsistent with his other feats.

Not really. This is the same Revan who beat Star Forge Malak multiple times in a row, b*tchslapped Nyriss into oblivion and went toe to toe with a dark side demi-god for a few rounds. Drew also told Legend that Revan was capable of blowing up a building with the Force if he were so inclined.

And he does it while holding off Cipher 9, The Champ and the future Darth Nox and Emperor's Wrath.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, in Yoda's case, I don't see how it's inconsistent when we see far inferior force users consistently use the force on a far larger level than Yoda did in the movies (except for shoving Sidious over his desk).

In the mini series or elsewhere?

Game mechanics wasn't the word I was looking for. But in any case, I'm not arguing that it should be considered non-canon, just that we don't see him do anything like that elsewhere, as far as I know.

See what Neph posted.

Yoda's force usage is not grossly exaggerated when we consider the feats of his inferiors in the newer series.

Again, are we talking about the Mini Series circa 2003?

It's like you ignored everything I said? I'm not saying we accept every single feat in the mini series just because they happened in them. That's not my argument, because, yes, some of it is exaggerated. I'm giving you a logical explanation as to why Yoda's feats in the mini series are not really exaggerated.

So how then do you objectively tell which aren't exaggerated?

When was Yoda in a desperate situation where the plot demanded that he use the force heavily but was unable to?

Stopping Dooku from smashing Anakin and Obi-Wan. Geonosis in general. Any time a pod was chucked at him. Hell, he has to concentrate to levitate an X-Wing out of a swamp in ESB, but can ragdoll dropships like nothing?

His and Kenobi's attempt to sneak their way to the jedi temple, was just that, an attempt to sneak their way through without the sith knowing of their presence. Using large amounts of force energy would have likely alerted Sidious of their presence.

A surprisingly unsupported assumption. What do you think Yoda was using to fuel his Ataru offensive? Caffeine?

But of course you won't accept that explanation, but yet when it comes to characters like Kun who didn't kill with his all-powerful blasts when he was there to actually kill his opponents, you expected me to accept your explanation that Kun was just trolling them, which I did accept.

Kun doesn't need his amulets to kill, so this is a red herring.

Why is it hard to accept my logical explanation as to why Yoda's feats in the mini series shouldn't be feats that are above his level?

Because it's not a logical explanation. There's no reason why I should accept any or all of the mini series feats, given the gross level of inconsistency.

No, S66 has a very valid point. As usual, you're only interested in reducing the film characters to their least impressive incarnations and have no interest in adopting the same standard for EU characters.

Would you like for me to go through all the times EU Character X should have done Y and Z to defeat his or her opponent and failed to do so?

What you continually fail to grasp is that this is a game that can be used against the EU as much as against the films.

You should accept that or stop playing altogether. Anything else is just flagrant hypocrisy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, S66 has a very valid point.

Not really. The mini series is questionably canon and its depictions are not consistent with G-canon media before and after. As for EU, I brought up two impressive feats in direct response to you, and did not at any point say "EU feats are off of the table". My specific issue was with the idea of the Mini series feats being admissable.

As usual, you're only interested in reducing the film characters to their least impressive incarnations and have no interest in adopting the same standard for EU characters.

No. That's a strawman.

Calm down.

Would you like for me to go through all the times EU Character X should have done Y and Z to defeat his or her opponent and failed to do so?

That's not relevant and you know it.

What you continually fail to grasp is that this is a game that can be used against the EU as much as against the films.

That's not my argument either. Read slower.

You should accept that or stop playing altogether. Anything else is just flagrant hypocrisy.

Unless you have a logical argument as to why everyone in Samurai Jack Mini Series can force push legions and spin ships in orbit and then suddenly lose that ability after the series, you don't have a position in this debate. So slow your roll and stop the knee-jerk reaction.

Not angry, bro. Just giving you some much needed str8-tlk. excellent

As I told you, if we're going to dismiss the mini-series feats by virtue of their incompatibility with how certain characters are depicted in other mediums or in other sources, we're going to do that... for everyone. (This includes the EU.)

As far as my position in this debate is concerned, you've had a history of running into threads, typing "LOL PT BIAS" (indeed, in all caps), and generally doing the same thing I'm now doing to you.

This is another game that can be played and that works both ways. If you don't like it, stop playing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not angry, bro. Just giving you some much needed str8-tlk. excellent

Except that you aren't resolving the conflict at hand. You're simply throwing fuel on one side.

As I told you, if we're going to dismiss the mini-series feats by virtue of their incompatibility with how certain characters are depicted in other mediums or in other sources, we're going to do that... for everyone. (This includes the EU.)

It's not just "they are depicted differently". Obviously there is differences in personality, the way they are described, drawn, etc. That is not in contention. The scale and ease of use of their Force powers, is however in contention.

Let's look at it in its simplest form:

- Force use in the CW Mini Series is drastically more impressive and more easily used than in the PT movies or novels prior, the CW series afterwards as well as subsequent PT related media.

Do you dispute this? Furthermore, can you find a logical reason to accept it as equal to other G-canon, given the issue?

As far as my position in this debate is concerned, you've had a history of running into threads, typing "LOL PT BIAS" (indeed, in all caps), and generally doing the same thing I'm now doing to you.

1. You're being petty.

2. I'm debating in this thread, not merely slinging in comments and wading off. I have a valid point that needs to be addressed for consistency among arguments here. Choosing to belittle or ignore that point, or just be contradictory doesn't remove that validity.

This is another game that can be played and that works both ways. If you don't like it, stop playing.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In the mini series or elsewhere?

No, in the newer series. Maul doesn't even exist in the mini series.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
See what Neph posted.

Ok, and Yoda flings Sidious across a room and redirects his lightning. I don't see how redirecting Nyriss's lightning helps your case about Revan anymore than Yoda's feats against Sidious help mine.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Again, are we talking about the Mini Series circa 2003?

Nope, the newer ones.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So how then do you objectively tell which aren't exaggerated?

As I said, Yoda's inferiors have displayed ridiculous force feats in Filoni's series, which supposedly aren't exaggerated uses of the force. When we see Sidious come through and treat these characters like mere bugs in these very same series, then why is it hard to assume that Yoda, with concentration, can't stop small vehicles mid-flight, causing other vehicles to crash into them, or move around much larger objects with the force than force users like Maul?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Stopping Dooku from smashing Anakin and Obi-Wan.

I thought he did? You mean to tell me that's not Anakin and Kenobi we see in ROTS?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Geonosis in general.

Power creep; this happened years before the events of the mini series. lol

Serioulsy, though, Yoda wasn't there during most of the battle in the arena, and when he did arrive, he stayed onboard the vehicle he was on. I can't tell you why. I'm only arguing what Yoda is capable of doing.

Just like you wouldn't be able to explain why Vitiate, a sith lord who dominated his era for centuries, would walk into a lightsaber. Are we to argue Vitiate's incompetence and say someone like Kenobi can take him, because all he has to do is stand there, block lightning, and wait for Vitiate to walk into his saber.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Any time a pod was chucked at him.

That could have been because of the speed in which Sidious was throwing them.

I know you're going to post the video and count the seconds, but if the pods were truly moving at the speed as they were shown to us, then Yoda isn't faster than Obi Wan, who has casually evaded blaster bolts from Jango in AOTC.

This is the topic that I don't like to debate with you in: the speed of how things are shown to use onscreen. If we go by how it is shown to us, then jedi are not really warriors with force enhanced speed or precognition, they're just stunt men and old men swinging laser swords around, because that's what we see.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Hell, he has to concentrate to levitate an X-Wing out of a swamp in ESB, but can ragdoll dropships like nothing?

He was concentrating in the mini series as well. If moving an X-wing was truly the pinnacle of his power, then he should have been easily snuffed out by Sidious, or maybe Sidious was just trolling him?

What are you arguing exactly? That we limit Yoda's feats to the movies? Then we'd have to toss out all of the feats of his inferiors in TCW.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kun doesn't need his amulets to kill, so this is a red herring.

But when he used it on a force user who he planned on killing, it didn't kill her.

Yoda doesn't need TK to kill either. His lightsaber is sufficient. Even in the mini series, he relied on his lightsaber in close combat more than he did the force.

It's not a red herring, it's calling you out on double standards.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Because it's not a logical explanation. There's no reason why I should accept any or all of the mini series feats, given the gross level of inconsistency.

Maul can hurl star ships and ragdoll armies. Why is it hard to assume that Yoda can out perform Maul by miles?