Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also--You're saying Yoda will need much more than TK to defeat the Barsen'thor? The Barsen has nothing *but* TK feats, dude.
Shielding multiple Jedi from a madness-inducing plague doesn't sound like "TK" to me.
Plus she also has feats of healing severely wounded individuals.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, he didn't.
Yes he did.
He tricked them into coming into range and caught them off guard. Plus they ****ing suck. The CIS droids are bar none the least threatening troops in Star Wars.
Caught them off guard? Did you watch the video? He was sitting their meditating.
Bottom line: I don't rate defeating 30 retarded robots highly at all. These guys are utter jokes.
Furthermore it is the greatest droid army the galaxy has ever known.
Whereas the Barsen'thor fought through real troops and real armies. Like when she fought through a Star Destroyer of mentally-controlled Republic soldiers, while weakened and still defeated a Sith Lord empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters.
Canonically the battle droids of the CIS and the Clone Armies of the Republic are the largest and most powerful armies to clash in galactic history.
Because most of it goes to maintaining his immortality.
Proof?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is fanon until confirmed.
Nonetheless, Sith Emperor siphons power of others to maintain his immortality and distribute his power among others to increase his reach across the galaxy.
And yet when the Children of the Emperor fell his power didn't magically increase.
-snip-
All I see is a bunch of assertions. No proof.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Shielding multiple Jedi from a madness-inducing plague doesn't sound like "TK" to me.Plus she also has feats of healing severely wounded individuals.
That's not combat feat. And Yoda has shielded himself from a DS ritual on a DS nexus from two of the greatest Sith Lords in galactic history.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes he did.
Oh really? Wheres the amazing Force powers? You remember that thats what we're talking about in this thread right? So wheres him lifting hundreds of destroyers into the sky? Or smashing two transports together? Or pushing scores of batle droids back with Force Waves?
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Caught them off guard? Did you watch the video? He was sitting their meditating.
Yes, I did. He waited until they were asking for orders and stuff.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Its a kids show the villains are shown in a joking light for the kids. The droids are far from 'retarded', and there were somewhere in the range of a thousand droids.
You mean like when Darth Maul kills children and massacres an entire town? Or Adi Gallia gets gored on-screen?Or the whole baby kidnapping storyline?
No, the droids are retarded. They are really, really stupid and incompetent. And a thousand? Wtf are you smoking? There are twenty to thirty in the video. I counted.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Furthermore it is the greatest droid army the galaxy has ever known.
Yeah, and if you watch the video you might notice that Yoda only has to block a grand total of 2 to 3 blaster bolts because the standard troops are so horrendously inaccurate they somehow keep missing from 5 feet away. Despite Yoda standing still and in the open multiple times.
Only the destroyers are a remote threat.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Canonically the battle droids of the CIS and the Clone Armies of the Republic are the largest and most powerful armies to clash in galactic history.
Just because theres a lot of them doesn't negate the fact that the standard battle droid is less threatening than a drunk ewok. At least the ewok wouldn't destroy its own tank through sheer idiocy.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Proof?
Well its pretty obvious for one thing. Unless you seriously think the power of 8 thousand Sith lords isn't enough to bridge the gap between Vitiate and Sidious. And yeah, its not that for some reason he only got .01% of each of their power (which is still 80 Sith Lords btw). SWTORE says "The pain, energy and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries." Vitiates drain was so complete he drained all the Force on the planet, all life on the planet and all the freaking COLOR on the planet. If he was really using everything he drained, or even a fraction, he would already be a god.
Nevertheless, in Revan its stated that Vitiate is sapping power from him to fuel his bottomless hunger and to extend his existence. If he didn't require a shitton of energy, that obviously wouldn't be needed. There are a few other mentions of such things and I think its outright stated at one point that most of it goes to his immortality but I can't be asked to look through all the material.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's not combat feat.
That's not the point.
The point is that NewGuy01 was claiming that the Barsen'thor has nothing but telekinetic feats and that is not the case. She has several feats besides telekinesis. That's all I'm saying.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
And Yoda has shielded himself from a DS ritual on a DS nexus from two of the greatest Sith Lords in galactic history.
Again, that's highly impressive. Not saying otherwise.
I just think that the Barsen'thor's feat is more impressive.
Shes also able to sense and see events occurring on Makeb whilst meditating her ship in the expansion. Which is pretty neat.
(not saying thats better than Yoda, but its a non-TK feat)
Anyway, since like, 99% of offensive Jedi techniques are TK based its a bit silly to criticise her for only having TK feats. Also, do Force shields count as TK? The Barsen'thor tanked an explosion that vaporised a blast door to the face and blocks a lightsaber with a bubble if you try to kill the First Son. And she resists his telepathy.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]Oh really? Wheres the amazing Force powers? You remember that thats what we're talking about in this thread right? So wheres him lifting hundreds of destroyers into the sky? Or smashing two transports together? Or pushing scores of batle droids back with Force Waves?
He chose to dispatch them with his saber. As he did on Ilum in the cartoon...which is still canon and referenced by a G-canon source as canon.
Yes, I did. He waited until they were asking for orders and stuff.
Not at all. They shot first...with a tank I might add.
You mean like when Darth Maul kills children and massacres an entire town? Or Adi Gallia gets gored on-screen?Or the whole baby kidnapping storyline?
Yeah all of which is exactly why it got canceled. It was too dark for a child audience anymore. You're comparing the first episode of the first season to the last season.
No, the droids are retarded. They are really, really stupid and incompetent. And a thousand? Wtf are you smoking? There are twenty to thirty in the video. I counted.
Doesn't matter if you counted there were dozens more off screen. Its specifically stated that there's a battalion of troops. Battalion strength in the GAR is 660, the CIS have larger battalions and irl battalion strength is anywhere from 300-1200 troops. I'd imagine the CIS is closer to the 1200 area considering this.
"You were right, Dooku.
One Jedi is not worth 100 battle droids.
More like, 1,000."
Yeah, and if you watch the video you might notice that Yoda only has to block a grand total of 2 to 3 blaster bolts because the standard troops are so horrendously inaccurate they somehow keep missing from 5 feet away. Despite Yoda standing still and in the open multiple times.
Its supposed to be more. Budgetary limitations likely stopped them from showing all the on screen droids.
Only the destroyers are a remote threat.
Riiight because only destroyers are a threat to Jedi. 🙄
Just because theres a lot of them doesn't negate the fact that the standard battle droid is less threatening than a drunk ewok. At least the ewok wouldn't destroy its own tank through sheer idiocy.
The tank was already immobilized. And you clearly haven't been paying attention. Stormtroopers in the OT are scarcely better than the battledroids, and yet some of these are the same men who gunned down Jedi Knights in the hundreds during the storming of the Temple.
Well its pretty obvious for one thing. Unless you seriously think the power of 8 thousand Sith lords isn't enough to bridge the gap between Vitiate and Sidious. And yeah, its not that for some reason he only got .01% of each of their power (which is still 80 Sith Lords btw). SWTORE says "The pain, energy and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries." Vitiates drain was so complete he drained all the Force on the planet, all life on the planet and all the freaking COLOR on the planet. If he was really using everything he drained, or even a fraction, he would already be a god.
No my point is that siphoning power from Sith Lords and force users doesn't mean ALL their potential power is suddenly flowing through you.
Nevertheless, in Revan its stated that Vitiate is sapping power from him to fuel his bottomless hunger and to extend his existence. If he didn't require a shitton of energy, that obviously wouldn't be needed. There are a few other mentions of such things and I think its outright stated at one point that most of it goes to his immortality but I can't be asked to look through all the material.
I don't remember that quote at all. But I think it stands to reason that when you are draining someone you don't have access to all their power one way or another. Unless you actually think the Barsen'thor can solo hundreds of Masters at once.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
He chose to dispatch them with his saber. As he did on Ilum in the cartoon...which is still canon and referenced by a G-canon source as canon.
But earlier in the episode instead of pwning droids directly with the Force, he manipulates one of them into shooting the rest (though he does force push them when theres 5 left). And then retreats when some destroyers show up. Stop ignoring the fact that Yoda is nowhere near the level he is in the mini. The mini may be canon but its still an exaggeration of events.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not at all. They shot first...with a tank I might add.
They had 3 tanks and only fired with one of them. They were clearly confused by him sitting out in the open like that.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah all of which is exactly why it got canceled. It was too dark for a child audience anymore. You're comparing the first episode of the first season to the last season.
The droids are just as stupid in the movies and all other media they appear in. They're also just as stupid in the later seasons. The CIS battle droids are retarded. This is not in question. In the episode in question Ventress' 'best troops' fire on Yoda without even being in range, don't respond to orders even when shouted at repeatedly, crash a tank into a... tree? ask 'whats that' after one gets his head shot off, just stand there and watch Yoda jump around in front of them without firing for 5 seconds, split up to search for him despite seeing the direction he went, shot themselves and destroyed their own tanks. They're incompetence almost does more damage than Yoda does.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Doesn't matter if you counted there were dozens more off screen. Its specifically stated that there's a battalion of troops. Battalion strength in the GAR is 660, the CIS have larger battalions and irl battalion strength is anywhere from 300-1200 troops. I'd imagine the CIS is closer to the 1200 area considering this.
"You were right, Dooku.
One Jedi is not worth 100 battle droids.
More like, 1,000."
No there weren't.
And I suppose all those droids were invisible and Yoda just killed them too fast for us to see, lmao.
Theres are obviously not a 1000 droids in the episode. 🙄 Although thats a completely true statement considering how shitty the standard battle droids are. But the guy was just speaking in a hyperbolic manner.
You ever consider that the show, in the first season at least is just shit and doesn't know how big a battalion is? Also its just one of the clones says 'theres gotta be a whole battalion in there'. Which is just speculation. Facts are facts, and the facts are that theres at most a hundred droids in the entire episode.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Its supposed to be more. Budgetary limitations likely stopped them from showing all the on screen droids.
I think you responded to the wrong quote here. My point stands, the droids are horribly inaccurate even at close range.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Riiight because only destroyers are a threat to Jedi. 🙄
This is where I post Obi-Wan lightly jogging up to some super battle droids and slicing them up like bread.
Though really the fact that after Yoda jumps over the tank fire he then lands, stands still and slowly ignites his lightsaber and jogs forward while none of the droids literally 5 feet away even come close to hitting him kind of proves my point by itself.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
The tank was already immobilized. And you clearly haven't been paying attention. Stormtroopers in the OT are scarcely better than the battledroids, and yet some of these are the same men who gunned down Jedi Knights in the hundreds during the storming of the Temple.
Stormtroopers aren't nearly as bad as the battle droids. Sometimes they're dumb, but mostly they're not. In ANH they intentionally let Luke and co escape for one thing.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
No my point is that siphoning power from Sith Lords and force users doesn't mean ALL their potential power is suddenly flowing through you.
And my point is that thats different since Vitiate was using the energy for maintaining his immortality. Vivicar was straight up draining power from them.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
I don't remember that quote at all. But I think it stands to reason that when you are draining someone you don't have access to all their power one way or another. Unless you actually think the Barsen'thor can solo hundreds of Masters at once.
"REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger. Though the two were physically separated by a dozen parsecs, there was still an unbreakable mental link, fashioned by the Emperor and sustained by the infernal machines powering the cell.
Yet the Emperor wanted more than to leach off his fallen adversary’s power to sustain his own twisted existence."
I've never suggested that Vivicar was draining all of their power. Its obviously not an insignificant amount though, and even a small portion from a hundred Jedi Masters adds up to a large amp. Vivicar does say that if he keeps draining from them then 'soon, the combined power of your masters will make me the most powerful Force adept who has ever lived!"
Neph, in these very same series and it's tie-in comics we see Windu reduce a large group of battle droids to pieces of scrap with a mere force push, Maul and Savage ragdoll armies of droids and non-droids alike with force waves, and Dooku does the same. You should watch the entire episode and you'd know why Yoda didn't go in on the droids as hard as he could have: he was teaching two non-force using clones that their mind is their best weapon on the battle field, thus teaching them to use strategy to overcome their opponents. That was the moral of Yoda's lesson and the episode. If Yoda went in on the droids, crushing them all with mere gestures, then what would non-force using clones learn from that? Think about it. Something Yoda didn't do does not mean it's something he's incapable of doing.
As for him destroying those landing crafts, I don't see that as an exaggeration of Yoda's TK, given how his equal (Sidious) can easily ragdoll and overpower force users (even two of them at once) who can move around star ships or objects bigger than ships. I don't see why Yoda shouldn't be able move around much bigger objects than his inferiors can, do you? If we limit Yoda's TK to that single episode, then he is nowhere near the level of Sidious, despite, you know, being Sidious' equal, even packing enough power to send Palpatine flying several feet in the air and over his desk with TK.
Game play mechanics are usually exaggerated, but yet you accept Revan's meteor shower as canon, despite him not doing anything remotely comparable in his novel.
Dave Filoni stated long ago that the Clone War mini showed an "exaggerated" use of the Force. He even specifically brought up the example of Mace Windu saying something along the lines of "you can't have Mace Windu destroying hundreds of droids, because if they could do that then they would have cleaned up of Geonosis."
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dave Filoni stated long ago that the Clone War mini showed an "exaggerated" use of the Force. He even specifically brought up the example of Mace Windu saying something along the lines of "you can't have Mace Windu destroying hundreds of droids, because if they could do that then they would have cleaned up of Geonosis."
The problem is Filoni also claimed that the EU isn't canon. He treats it the same that Lucas treats it, "a base of ideas". He has also claimed that Han Solo can't understand Chewie. 😐
Ultimately, I wouldn't treat anything he says as gospel unless it deals with his series itself.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Neph, in these very same series and it's tie-in comics we see Windu reduce a large group of battle droids to pieces of scrap with a mere force push, Maul and Savage ragdoll armies of droids and non-droids alike with force waves, and Dooku does the same. You should watch the entire episode and you'd know why Yoda didn't go in on the droids as hard as he could have: he was teaching two non-force using clones that their mind is their best weapon on the battle field, thus teaching them to use strategy to overcome their opponents. That was the moral of Yoda's lesson and the episode. If Yoda went in on the droids, crushing them all with mere gestures, then what would non-force using clones learn from that? Think about it. Something Yoda didn't do does not mean it's something he's incapable of doing.As for him destroying those landing crafts, I don't see that as an exaggeration of Yoda's TK, given how his equal (Sidious) can easily ragdoll and overpower force users (even two of them at once) who can move around star ships or objects bigger than ships. I don't see why Yoda shouldn't be able move around much bigger objects than his inferiors can, do you? If we limit Yoda's TK to that single episode, then he is nowhere near the level of Sidious, despite, you know, being Sidious' equal, even packing enough power to send Palpatine flying several feet in the air and over his desk with TK.
Game play mechanics are usually exaggerated, but yet you accept Revan's meteor shower as canon, despite him not doing anything remotely comparable in his novel.
👆
Originally posted by ares834
The problem is Filoni also claimed that the EU isn't canon. He treats it the same that Lucas treats it, "a base of ideas". He has also claimed that Han Solo can't understand Chewie. 😐Ultimately, I wouldn't treat anything he says as gospel unless it deals with his series itself.
But what he was saying there was dealing with the series. He was explaining how Windu can't do that (in his higher canon series) because if he could then he would have cleaned house on Geonosis.
I'm all for some rules setting out when we take Filoni's words as canon and when we don't. But I'd say given the daily in depth discussions he's had with Lucas over the past several years, he's probably right 8/10 times. Oh and on this particular topic (of the CW Mini feats) he actually mentioned it was discussed with Lucas.
Also I don't remember him saying the EU isn't canon. He's always said he has a lot of respect for the EU, and borrow many ideas from there. But in terms of canonicity it's true his series takes precedence over any other EU material.
Filoni's series is higher canon than novels, games, or comics, to be sure. That's not in question.
What IS in question is the CW miniseries, which is over ten years old, animated with an exaggerated style that breaks the suspension of disbelief surrounding other 'equally valid' canon, and seems to not jive with the longer lasting, newer Clone Wars series.
In terms of G-canon conflicts, newer content overrides older content. Unless there's something explicit which says the Force usage in the miniseries is legit (and somehow explains the holding back present elsewhere), I see no reason to entertain it as valid, consistent evidence.
ok read the first thread....still team 1.
Vaapad has an unarmed component so between Mace and HoT...
The duel will be hand to hand then...last I checked Vaapad has a HTH method....
should be a walk in the park....HTH can be used without The Force......
Question is can HoT fight HTH without The Force?
next....ok why shouldn't that be considered a feat for Mace?
then if that's the case Yoda,Obi Wan,and Anakin did some questionable things...
And the Fight at Geonosis would have been over....
What I saw was a sample of how Vaapad works against droids...with or without a light saber ...
it maybe a little exaggerated but they show other Jedi who exaggerates their Force use, too.
Yoda and Sidious being two for example....
The Battle of Dantooine happened after Geonosis....off panel or camera whatever,all the Masters
Knights trained for the upcoming battles against the droid army.....
besides imo I saw Mace getting loose.....better than that episode with Jar Jar .....
that was a big slap in the face.....he could have redid the Battle of Dantooine.....
He could had him duel against Dooku,Sora Bulq, helll anything....he could have came here and
got some ideas........
Jar Jar...really they should have killed Jar Jar ....instead of Savage or Fives....or that twin Jedi knight female....I forgot her name.....
Then the rules should have been set for everyone and not just Windu...who gets an episode....the catch
is... we won't see Vaapad...no sir...we see silly ass Jar Jar...That episode was a complete joke...
which ain't funny...I see it will take a more serious writer to give us an episode with Mace either kicking ass or trying to deal with Depa being in a coma and what exactly did he learn from
Haruun Kal..... how it's truly affecting him when the Council isn't around....