Can you guys just close the book on this? 😐
This is how it goes:
Adam/Thanos w/IG (one shot multiple cosmics capability/no help needed from outside source like a nexus)>>>Malestrom/QB/Anomaly/Oblivion (shitstomped by blackhole/briefly stalemated then shitstomped by one cosmic:Infinity)>>>Ereshkigal/Nexus/Congress (featless/mere abstract peer/struggles opening portals/boosted by character (LT) statements).
And winner by unanimous decision.........The Infinity Gauntlet! 👆
Originally posted by Mr Master
😐 ... Nothing happened in the Maelstrom scene. He was obliterated, then re-appeared and left.
Maelstrom added that Thanos was probably not adept with the IG. (true, he had just got it)
He also suggested that Thanos was more powerful than he.Thanos was not allowed to wipe the floor with Maelstrom cause that was Quasar's job,
in his Quasar book,
where Quasar is the hero.
Point is, Thanos wanted to obliterate him and he failed (bio says that Maelstrom was superior to IG Thanos), but okay, we agreed that there were other things preventing him from doing that. Perhaps this was a bad example on my part, of how you purposely ignore evidence. A better example would be how you blatantly ignore the entire depiction of Eternity/Infinity throughout both arcs, for the showing to make sense.
I mean, don't pretend like im the only one ignoring things. From what i read, the stronger evidence alludes to it being universal, hence why i chose to "ignore" the Moon Knight statement.
Originally posted by Mr Master
the reason ET/IN popped up at the edge of the Multiverse,
is cause all of space-time joined to take down Magus.
Magus was unbalanced at this point due to the struggle,
this is why Warlock waited for the right moment to unleash the power of all on his ass.
Well, setting aside the fact that Eternity/Infinity were blatantly shown to be universal until Infinity War #5/6, we have a confirmation even after the Magus/Warlock battle happened, that Eternity is universal since he said the he is the embodiment of "this universe" in the last pages of Infinity War #6. And the handbooks outright say that they were universal versions who overpowered that IG.
If this isn't enough, then i don't know what is, honestly. Talk about ignoring things.
Anyway, im done here.
Originally posted by Sundipped
Malestrom>Ereshkigal
How do you interpret the LT statement when he said that if they compete it would cause severe damage to reality (through the nexus)? As in, she would give him a fight but ultimately lose, or that he'd easily beat her?
Originally posted by operator616Point is, Thanos wanted to obliterate him and he failed (bio says that Maelstrom was superior to IG Thanos), but okay, we agreed that there were other things preventing him from doing that.
Originally posted by operator616Perhaps this was a bad example on my part, of how you purposely ignore evidence. A better example would be how you blatantly ignore the entire depiction of Eternity/Infinity throughout both arcs, for the showing to make sense.
Originally posted by operator616I mean, don't pretend like im the only one ignoring things. From what i read, the stronger evidence alludes to it being universal, hence why i chose to "ignore" the Moon Knight statement.
Well, towards the end that is, when Magus/Warlock struggled over the Incomplete IG.
Meh,
not to mention that Magus merged 616 and another entire universe from over 100 universeS away.
Magus was also omni-present existing in multiple universes simultaneously.
Magus also wtfpwnd the UN (at-least absolute universal power)
Which is interesting, cause you know that's all facts,
making Magus at the very least a Multi-Universal power, and definitely > universal
yet, your "universal" embodiments defeated his multi-universal status.
The plot thickens ey?
Originally posted by operator616Well, setting aside the fact that Eternity/Infinity were blatantly shown to be universal until Infinity War #5/6, we have a confirmation even after the Magus/Warlock battle happened, that Eternity is universal since he said the he is the embodiment of "this universe" in the last pages of Infinity War #6. And the handbooks outright say that they were universal versions who overpowered that IG.
-----------------------------------------
btw, I missed your Aggy scan (which was the only relevant scan there imo)
At that point, the Multiverse entire was not in danger.
That multiversal jeopardy came towards the end, when Magus/Warlock batatled,
when you know, their struggle reached even Alternate Realities 1000 Years from now.
So, Aggy's comment is moot concerning this particular debate.
Originally posted by Sundipped
Can you guys just close the book on this? 😐
This is how it goes:Adam/Thanos w/IG (one shot multiple cosmics capability/no help needed from outside source like a nexus)>>>Malestrom/QB/Anomaly/Oblivion (shitstomped by blackhole/briefly stalemated then shitstomped by one cosmic:Infinity)>>>Ereshkigal/Nexus/Congress (featless/mere abstract peer/struggles opening portals/boosted by character (LT) statements).
And winner by unanimous decision.........The Infinity Gauntlet! 👆
When Warlock threw his little tantrum against the cosmic court, the LT reveresed the damage with a snap of his fingers :
When Ereskigal forcibly upset the balance between Order and Chaos, the LT didn't attempt to stop her, or snap his fingers and undo the damage she did :
Whoopsie!
Here is the LT staring down Warlock with the IG all by himself :
Here is the LT threatening Erishkigal with a cosmic posse consisting of the mighty of the multiverse (despite the fact that they would fight in the Nexus) and she dared him to do it :
If she was nothing to him why not :
a) BFR her then seal her in one of the random dimensions that the Nexus connects to? He's powerful enough to cut an entire universe from the rest of the multiverse and seal it so nothing got in or out :
He couldn't even BFR.
Once the Gems were under the LT's command, he powered them off and didn't allow them to work in unison :
The LT couldn't do jack vs the Starbrand (banish it, destroy it, etc.) and instead gave it back to Kayla on the downlow.
^^ I can't believe you're comparing the Starbrand to the IG. (classic no less)
Anyway, who was the hero in the Quasar book, and who was the hero in the Infinity Watch book?
Interesting, both heroes in both books come out looking good and winning.
LT wasn't allowed to stomp Erish, cause it was Quasar's book, where Quasar is the winning/hero.
There was only Warlock, the LT and the hierarchy in the IW book.
So yea, there was ONLY the LT to contend with Warlock.
Warlock had just obliterated the hierarchy one shot style, why would the LT think he needs them?
-------------------------------------------------
Also, you seem to forget one very important factor.
The LT didn't come at Warlock like he did at Erishkigel.
The LT came as something FAR more than his normal self: (TOAA's power?) hm
[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12711680_LT_above_IG.jpg]
"I represent forces that dwarf even your might ... My authority comes from on high"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Warlock/IG made it clear that it was TOAA that was above the 616 IG:
[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12711682_LT_above_IG2.jpg]
"I was called to judgement by the LT, the servant of the one who is above even Gods"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The amazing thing is, that even still,
the LT had to determine if he had the power to forcibly take the IG from Warlock,
and he did have the power, but he had to make sure first,
even though the LT knew he was backed by TOAA.
Simply incredible.
Originally posted by Mr MasterThe LT came as something FAR more than his normal self: (TOAA's power?) hm
[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12711680_LT_above_IG.jpg]
"I represent forces [b]that dwarf
even your might ... My authority comes from on high"----------------------------------------------------------------------
Warlock/IG made it clear that it was TOAA that was above the 616 IG:
[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12711682_LT_above_IG2.jpg]
"I was called to judgement by the LT, the servant of the one who is above even Gods"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The amazing thing is, that even still,
the LT had to determine if he had the power to forcibly take the IG from Warlock,
and he did have the power, but he had to make sure first,
even though the LT knew he was backed by TOAA.Simply incredible. [/B]
now this is a stance i've always disagreed with. in ANY incarnation, lt is a representative for toaa--iow he always has his backing. i don't think it's possible for lt to act INDEPENDENT of toaa's influence--at least we've never seen him do something that was against the wishes of toaa. lt's abilities aren't akin to the way the spectre is occasionally portrayed. i don't think lt was any more powerful in that scene than he was in any other appearance he's ever had. he just doesn't always outright state who's authority he is acting at the behest of. least imo. /shrug
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ I can't believe you're comparing the Starbrand to the IG. (classic no less)Anyway, who was the hero in the Quasar book, and who was the hero in the Infinity Watch book?
Interesting, both heroes in both books come out looking good and winning.
LT wasn't allowed to stomp Erish, cause it was Quasar's book, where Quasar is the winning/hero.
There was only Warlock, the LT and the hierarchy in the IW book.
So yea, there was ONLY the LT to contend with Warlock.
Warlock had just obliterated the hierarchy one shot style, why would the LT think he needs them?-------------------------------------------------
Also, you seem to forget one very important factor.
The LT didn't come at Warlock like he did at Erishkigel.
The LT came as something FAR more than his normal self: (TOAA's power?) hm
[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12711680_LT_above_IG.jpg]
"I represent forces [b]that dwarf
even your might ... My authority comes from on high"----------------------------------------------------------------------
Warlock/IG made it clear that it was TOAA that was above the 616 IG:
[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12711682_LT_above_IG2.jpg]
"I was called to judgement by the LT, the servant of the one who is above even Gods"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The amazing thing is, that even still,
the LT had to determine if he had the power to forcibly take the IG from Warlock,
and he did have the power, but he had to make sure first,
even though the LT knew he was backed by TOAA.Simply incredible. [/B]
In the above example regarding the Cosmic Court, the LT just SAT there completely unmoved by Warlock's assault on the Court and undid it with a finger snap.
When Erishkigal was toying with Order and Chaos against his will, all he did was scream at her to stop and she just laughed in his face. Why scream at her? Why not actually stop what she was doing or undo what she did (like he did vs Warlock)?
Compare and contrast his demeanor in both incidents. It's like night and day.
Keep in mind the Cosmic Court incident took place before the LT/Starbrand incident so Gruenwald must have been aware of it. That's pretty huge in and of itself as an indication of the classic Starbrand's power.
Originally posted by zopzop
I don't get this whole Nexus excuse regarding the Starbrand and the LT.When Warlock threw his little tantrum against the cosmic court, the LT reveresed the damage with a snap of his fingers :
When Ereskigal forcibly upset the balance between Order and Chaos, the LT didn't attempt to stop her, or snap his fingers and undo the damage she did :
Whoopsie!
Here is the LT staring down Warlock with the IG all by himself :
Here is the LT threatening Erishkigal with a cosmic posse consisting of the mighty of the multiverse (despite the fact that they would fight in the Nexus) and she dared him to do it :
If she was nothing to him why not :
a) BFR her then seal her in one of the random dimensions that the Nexus connects to? He's powerful enough to cut an entire universe from the rest of the multiverse and seal it so nothing got in or out :
He couldn't even BFR.Once the Gems were under the LT's command, he powered them off and didn't allow them to work in unison :
The LT couldn't do jack vs the Starbrand (banish it, destroy it, etc.) and instead gave it back to Kayla on the downlow.
incidentally, when lt mentions that she may be a peer to the "abstracts", he ALSO goes out of his way to mention he would call down "the highest powers in the MULTIVERSE" to challenge her. that in itself speaks volumes to me. factor in the notion that she was considered a threat to MULTIVERSAL balance, and all clues would seem to point to the fact that the 'abstracts' that he likened her to, may very well be the MULTIVERSAL forms of said abstracts.....like if someone said they would call down the mightiest beings in the UNIVERSE, we would all assume, i imagine, that those beings would include the UNIVERSAL eternity, death, etc. well, to me it stands to reason the mightiest in the MULTIVERSE would be the MULTIVERSAL abstracts.....
imo there is at least as much support for that idea as there is for the idea that he was comparing her to just the 'universal' forms--given the context of the story, i'd say there is MORE support tbh. and if THAT fact is true, her power level is on a WHOLE different level altogether.....
Originally posted by leonidas
incidentally, when lt mentions that she may be a peer to the "abstracts", he ALSO goes out of his way to mention he would call down "the highest powers in the MULTIVERSE" to challenge her. that in itself speaks volumes to me. factor in the notion that she was considered a threat to MULTIVERSAL balance, and all clues would seem to point to the fact that the 'abstracts' that he likened her to, may very well be the MULTIVERSAL forms of said abstracts.....like if someone said they would call down the mightiest beings in the UNIVERSE, we would all assume, i imagine, that those beings would include the UNIVERSAL eternity, death, etc. well, to me it stands to reason the mightiest in the MULTIVERSE would be the MULTIVERSAL abstracts.....imo there is at least as much support for that idea as there is for the idea that he was comparing her to just the 'universal' forms--given the context of the story, i'd say there is MORE support tbh. and if THAT fact is true, her power level is on a WHOLE different level altogether.....
And Gruenwald (the guy who wrote that issue) would know the difference between universe and multiverse seeing as how The classification system for alternate realities was devised, in part, by Mark Gruenwald.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_%28Marvel_Comics%29
Originally posted by leonidas
incidentally, when lt mentions that she may be a peer to the "abstracts", he ALSO goes out of his way to mention he would call down "the highest powers in the MULTIVERSE" to challenge her. that in itself speaks volumes to me. factor in the notion that she was considered a threat to MULTIVERSAL balance, and all clues would seem to point to the fact that the 'abstracts' that he likened her to, may very well be the MULTIVERSAL forms of said abstracts.....like if someone said they would call down the mightiest beings in the UNIVERSE, we would all assume, i imagine, that those beings would include the UNIVERSAL eternity, death, etc. well, to me it stands to reason the mightiest in the MULTIVERSE would be the MULTIVERSAL abstracts.....imo there is at least as much support for that idea as there is for the idea that he was comparing her to just the 'universal' forms--given the context of the story, i'd say there is MORE support tbh. and if THAT fact is true, her power level is on a WHOLE different level altogether.....
Keep in mind the concept of a multi-Versal abstract isn't foreign to Gruenwald, he wrote the What If and the follow up What If about Korvac destroying the universe with the UN. In the follow up story look what Eternity says :
"Of the nigh infinite aspects that comprise my totality, I am the only one to succumb to Death".
Originally posted by zopzop
Again, Mr. M I actually do get where you are coming from and I see your point. I just think you are seriously underselling the Classic Starbrand.In the above example regarding the Cosmic Court, the LT just SAT there completely unmoved by Warlock's assault on the Court and undid it with a finger snap.
When Erishkigal was toying with Order and Chaos against his will, all he did was scream at her to stop and she just laughed in his face. Why scream at her? Why not actually stop what she was doing or undo what she did (like he did vs Warlock)?
Compare and contrast his demeanor in both incidents. It's like night and day.
Keep in mind the Cosmic Court incident took place before the LT/Starbrand incident so Gruenwald must have been aware of it. That's pretty huge in and of itself as an indication of the classic Starbrand's power.
What you have to realize is how the writer wanted this plot to play out zop. LT could have sent other abstracts to deal with her or he could've stomped her by himself but what was suggested was a tournament in which LT picked Surfer knowing he was more powerful (as was shown) and was going to beat Quasar anyway. That's how this was supposed to play out with Quasar realizing what's going on and Surfer saving the universe.
To compare and contrast both cases involved:
Massive destruction if LT were to intervene personally in physical terms.
LT admitting to both that his power is superior.
This clause also plays into effect:
LT cannot possess the SB or manipulate it because it jeapordizes his authority being that it is a source of power stemming from outside of his jurisdiction. He has no say so about anything in/from New Universe. This explains him being able to shut off the gems of 616 but not directly being able to affect the SB any kind of way within the Marvel multiverse. Because of this, he can only bfr it. So his differences in dealing with both under these conditions are completely reasonable and justifiable. Just because these facts are the case doesn't mean SB automatically >>>>IG by proxy. You have to take these stipulations into account.
Now I think about it, LT really outsmarted her and played her like a chump by having his way not bringing about universal destruction considering said stipulations were always in effect. There's also the fact that Ereshkigal, after losing the contest, dared not challenge LT outright but instead destroyed herself. If she's so powerful, of all ways, why go out like that? 😬
Originally posted by leonidas
incidentally, when lt mentions that she may be a peer to the "abstracts", he ALSO goes out of his way to mention he would call down "the highest powers in the MULTIVERSE" to challenge her. that in itself speaks volumes to me. factor in the notion that she was considered a threat to MULTIVERSAL balance, and all clues would seem to point to the fact that the 'abstracts' that he likened her to, may very well be the MULTIVERSAL forms of said abstracts.....like if someone said they would call down the mightiest beings in the UNIVERSE, we would all assume, i imagine, that those beings would include the UNIVERSAL eternity, death, etc. well, to me it stands to reason the mightiest in the MULTIVERSE would be the MULTIVERSAL abstracts.....imo there is at least as much support for that idea as there is for the idea that he was comparing her to just the 'universal' forms--given the context of the story, i'd say there is MORE support tbh. and if THAT fact is true, her power level is on a WHOLE different level altogether.....
I see what you're saying and it's valid but it could also mean that LT could just choose from a wider variety of abstracts. A multiverse would encompass more in quantity to pick from opposed to just one universe. Bit of a ego stroke announcing his range of scope IMO.
Originally posted by leonidas
now this is a stance i've always disagreed with. in ANY incarnation, lt is a representative for toaa--iow he always has his backing. i don't think it's possible for lt to act INDEPENDENT of toaa's influence--at least we've never seen him do something that was against the wishes of toaa. lt's abilities aren't akin to the way the spectre is occasionally portrayed. i don't think lt was any more powerful in that scene than he was in any other appearance he's ever had. he just doesn't always outright state who's authority he is acting at the behest of. least imo. /shrug
The fact that LT said he was "representing forces that dwarf the IG"
Imo, context is clear LT's referring to someone else.
Then to solidify that, we have Warlock literally and directly state it's TOAA who is above the IG.
If the LT's statement was all I had to go on (self explanatory as it is) I wouldn't make the argument,
but the Warlock corroboration (under the mantle of Godhood) saying the same thing, does it for me.
Originally posted by zopzopAgain, Mr. M I actually do get where you are coming from and I see your point. I just think you are seriously underselling the Classic Starbrand.
In the above example regarding the Cosmic Court, the LT just SAT there completely unmoved by Warlock's assault on the Court and undid it with a finger snap.
When Erishkigal was toying with Order and Chaos against his will, all he did was scream at her to stop and she just laughed in his face. Why scream at her? Why not actually stop what she was doing or undo what she did (like he did vs Warlock)?
Compare and contrast his demeanor in both incidents. It's like night and day.
You're also overlooking the fact that Gruenwald couldn't have the LT stomp/stop her,
because the book/plot must go on where Quasar (his book btw) comes out the hero in the end.
LT stated he was more powerful than Erish so the rest is senseless.
The LT felt she may be a "potential peer to the abstract Entities"
But could not "withstand the power of the Living Tribunal"
Originally posted by zopzopKeep in mind the Cosmic Court incident took place before the LT/Starbrand incident so Gruenwald must have been aware of it. That's pretty huge in and of itself as an indication of the classic Starbrand's power.
You guys continue with the LT calling others to smack down Erish, but perhaps it's cause he wasn't allowed to do it himself.
Freakin Gruenwald, remember he had Uatu enlist the "mightiest powers of the Multiverse" to confront Korvac,
they came and got stomped save for the LT.
Yet, 😂 Korvac wasn't even able to destroy a universe under his own power.
Originally posted by Sundipped
There's also the fact that Ereshkigal, after losing the contest, dared not challenge LT outright but instead destroyed herself. If she's so powerful, of all ways, why go out like that? 😬
He made a bet with Hawkeye and when he lost, he had to relinquish his power back to Death. Why do that when he had her helpless and WTF was Hawkeye gonna do to enforce that wager?
Unless you believe Hawkeye could have beaten Grandmaster with Death's power?
EDIT - Defalco wrote that and Gruenwald was the editor.
Originally posted by leonidas
incidentally, when lt mentions that she may be a peer to the "abstracts", he ALSO goes out of his way to mention he would call down "the highest powers in the MULTIVERSE" to challenge her. that in itself speaks volumes to me. factor in the notion that she was considered a threat to MULTIVERSAL balance, and all clues would seem to point to the fact that the 'abstracts' that he likened her to, may very well be the MULTIVERSAL forms of said abstracts.....like if someone said they would call down the mightiest beings in the UNIVERSE, we would all assume, i imagine, that those beings would include the UNIVERSAL eternity, death, etc. well, to me it stands to reason the mightiest in the MULTIVERSE would be the MULTIVERSAL abstracts.....
"The most awesome assembly of diverse power-wielders in the history of the Multiverse"
Yet, Korvac couldn't even destroy a universe under his own power.
... written by Gruenwald btw. (I see a pattern of exaggerations building)
Originally posted by Mr Master
not to mention that Magus merged 616 and another entire universe from over 100 universeS away.
Magus was also omni-present existing in multiple universes simultaneously.
Magus also wtfpwnd the UN (at-least absolute universal power)
Which is interesting, cause you know that's all facts,
making Magus at the very least a Multi-Universal power, and definitely > universal
yet, your "universal" embodiments defeated his multi-universal status.The plot thickens ey?
Two complete universal characters merged together = multi-universal power.
So, an incomplete IG was able to merge two universes, yet it was overpowered by a multi-universal power. I don't see any contradictions.
Originally posted by Mr MasterYea, of course Eternity is this universe, and that universe, if he's the multiverse.
, but nice try.
Handbooks say nothing about anyone being "univers[b]al
Handbook says the universe, and like you proved with Lucifer,
that term can mean something other.
Like I proved with Infinity War. (actually the term Multiverse was used on panel so)
[/B]
....what a nice excuse. So on panel, Eternity literally being described as being "this" universe, or specifying that Thanos is going to usurp "that" actuality (which is Eternity), isn't enough. Okay, im done arguing about this point, believe what you want.
Although im not sure what Lucifer has to do with all this. Eternity was specified as being a universe throughout the entire arc, and we know that it was not the embodiment of the multiverse since Agamotto (and Cyttorak) didn't care about him. While in Lucifer's case, it's different. Because Vertigo titles don't use the term "multiverse" as much as Marvel does. And it was made clear that Yahweh's reality is a multiverse since alternate realities were showin/depicted on panel. Which is why there's no doubt that the original reality, which Lucifer (along with Michael) created, was a multiverse.
Originally posted by Mr Master
btw, I missed your Aggy scan (which was the only relevant scan there imo)
At that point, the Multiverse entire was not in danger.
That multiversal jeopardy came towards the end, when Magus/Warlock batatled,
when you know, their struggle reached even Alternate Realities 1000 Years from now.So, Aggy's comment is moot concerning this particular debate.
Do you honestly think that the Eternity whom Magus/Warlock faced was different from the one which was portrayed throughout the arc?
Because it's not. Infinity confirmed it:
http://i.imgur.com/ESiZksE.jpg
The case for Eternity/Infinity being multiversal is based on nothing whatsoever and contradicted by.....literally, everything.
![[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12711680_LT_above_IG.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12711680/LT_above_IG.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12711682_LT_above_IG2.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/12711682/LT_above_IG2.jpg.html){kind=link}
