Originally posted by StealthRanger
As I said, movement is movement so, yes
Well there's no logic to that theory at all. Not only is flying completely unrelated to his limbs, but even in real life your theory doesn't hold up.
If it did, then the fastest sprinter in the world would also be the fastest swimmer in the world, he'd also be the fastest boxer in the world, and since your also equating speed and reaction time to this, then this same guy would be the fastest race car driver in the world.
But of course we all know that's not true at all. So no movement is not movement at all. And for Superman flying is a completely different power which has absolutely nothing to do with how fast he can run, punch or even react.
That's why we have to separate combat speed feats from all other types of speed feats.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well there's no logic to that theory at all. Not only is flying completely unrelated to his limbs, but even in real life your theory doesn't hold up.
In order to be able to fly and not crash into ****ing anything, you need to have massive reactions. And reactions and movement are very closely correlated so, yeah
But for something more direct, him and Zod fight while flying around so, there you go
*waiting patiently for the gem of "it didn't look that fast so it isn't"*
If it did, then the fastest sprinter in the world would also be the fastest swimmer in the world, he'd also be the fastest boxer in the world, and since your also equating speed and reaction time to this, then this same guy would be the fastest race car driver in the world.
Humans don't have that huge a disparity
What are we comparing to Superman to make such a statement. To say he's only subsonic in movement in ****ing silly given his feats of speed
But of course we all know that's not true at all. So no movement is not movement at all. And for Superman flying is a completely different power which has absolutely nothing to do with how fast he can run, punch or even react.That's why we have to separate combat speed feats from all other types of speed feats.
>combat speed "argument"
That's not how vs debating works. You don't take speed feats and categorize them into shit like "travel speed", "combat speed", "movement speed" because, well, how the **** do you measure combat speed without using movement, given in fights there's like, no indicator of how fast a character is actually going. Reason we use speed feats to measure a characters speed, not how fast fights appear
Originally posted by StealthRanger
In order to be able to fly and not crash into ****ing anything, you need to have massive reactions. And reactions and movement are very closely correlated so, yeah
LOL Well apart from the fact that HE DID crash into a mountain, reactions have absolutely nothing to do with how fast you can move.
I can control my car just fine at 70mph. Does that automatically mean I can run at 70mph? Of course not.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
But for something more direct, him and Zod fight while flying around so, there you go*waiting patiently for the gem of "it didn't look that fast so it isn't"*
That did look fast actually. And if your arguing Superman can fly up in the air, then fly back down towards Shaw and hit him at an incredible impact speed, or fly him off into space at an incredible speed, then yes I'd agree.
But that still doesn't prove his reaction speed, and punches in a grounded scenario are "much much faster than a bullet... so much faster that the bullet speed is a joke in comparison."
I mean The Human Torch flies around really fast, does that mean he punches at superspeed? If he just flies into people with his fist in front of him, then I guess he would. But he certainly doesn't have faster than bullet/sound punches, kicks and reaction time in general.
Superman does, but just how much faster is in question atm.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Humans don't have that huge a disparityWhat are we comparing to Superman to make such a statement. To say he's only subsonic in movement in ****ing silly given his feats of speed
The principal is the same when applying to humans. It's only logical to decide on things we do know in real life.
Superman has shown he punches and moves at super speed. But he hasn't shown he punches, kicks and reacts "MUCH MUCH FASTER THAN A BULLET" without just flying into someone. Which as I said even the Human Torch can do.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
>combat speed "argument"That's not how vs debating works. You don't take speed feats and categorize them into shit like "travel speed", "combat speed", "movement speed" because, well, how the **** do you measure combat speed without using movement, given in fights there's like, no indicator of how fast a character is actually going. Reason we use speed feats to measure a characters speed, not how fast fights appear
The principal is the same as when applying to humans. It's only logical to decide on things we do know in real life. Instead of just making up this idea that Superman can run and swim and punch and react at exactly the same speed he flies. That argument has no logical merit to it at all.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL Well apart from the fact that HE DID crash into a mountain, reactions have absolutely nothing to do with how fast you can move.I can control my car just fine at 70mph. Does that automatically mean I can run at 70mph? Of course not.
That's piloting a device. Not flying under your own power. Also the mountain thing was before he even got acquainted with his powers
Are you honest to god stupid to believe a ****er who flies at massively hypersonic speed is limited to only superhuman reactions?
That did look fast actually. And if your arguing Superman can fly up in the air, then fly back down towards Shaw and hit him at an incredible impact speed, or fly him off into space at an incredible speed, then yes I'd agree.
Well that's kind of what I was thinking
And what I meant, Superman and Zod were flying around punching eachother the whole time, which is a speed/reaction feat. Whoa
But that still doesn't prove his reaction speed, and punches in a grounded scenario are "much much faster than a bullet... so much faster that the bullet speed is a joke in comparison."
Nah, it's clearcut
I mean The Human Torch flies around really fast, does that mean he punches at superspeed? If he just flies into people with his fist in front of him, then I guess he would. But he certainly doesn't have faster than bullet/sound punches, kicks and reaction time in general.
I guess so, yes. If he's not completely unco
Same generally goes for character who can fly super fast and aren't really physical fighters, like Sailor Moon, for example
Unless this is something like Kain's "jump" ability which is a conscious decision to boost himself and said "amp" only lasts while said ability is being used and nowhere else
Superman does, but just how much faster is in question atm.
Being autistic about something you dislike doesn't make something "in question", it just means you're, ****ing autistic, quite bluntly
The principal is the same when applying to humans. It's only logical to decide on things we do know in real life.Superman has shown he punches and moves at super speed. But he hasn't shown he punches, kicks and reacts "MUCH MUCH FASTER THAN A BULLET" without just flying into someone. Which as I said even the Human Torch can do.
Again, who are we comparing to Superman to make such comparisons? Even then, why would this discredit him being massively hypersonic now?
Humans are only generally 6 to 15 meters per second (I believe?) in terms of movement. To assume Superman would be limited to low end superhuman attack speed when he's shown Mach triple digit feats, well, is ****ing idiotic. Akin to the same shit the Phenom Brigade and Moses and his MVC retard gang spouted off in comic vs DBZ threads with the "combat speed" nonsense
The principal is the same as when applying to humans. It's only logical to decide on things we do know in real life. Instead of just making up this idea that Superman can run and swim and punch and react at exactly the same speed he flies. That argument has no logical merit to it at all.
Curious to know how you define "combat speed" if we don't use notable speed feats over how fast fights "appeared". Well, I'm waiting
/que the MVC-esque "can only be measured in combat" shtick
http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/13-general-obd-terms/79-combat-speed-fallacy
I suggest you read it. All of it
Originally posted by StealthRanger
That's piloting a device. Not flying under your own power. Also the mountain thing was before he even got acquainted with his powersAre you honest to god stupid to believe a ****er who flies at massively hypersonic speed is limited to only superhuman reactions?
Well yeah he can be.
Unless you think Human Torch has massive superhuman reaction speed and movement.
Heck Storm can fly pretty damn fast in X3. Does that mean she automatically have superhuman punches and reaction time? Give me a break.
There is a clear different between travelling speed and combat speed.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Well that's kind of what I was thinkingAnd what I meant, Superman and Zod were flying around punching eachother the whole time, which is a speed/reaction feat. Whoa
Yeah but problem is it doesn't represent the speed of their regular movements, because they required massive amounts of space to be doing that.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Nah, it's clearcut
It's clear cut he has superhuman speed. But much much faster than a bullet for his regular punches, kicks and reaction time? Nah that's not clear at all. It might be in the next movie, but not so far.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
I guess so, yes. If he's not completely uncoSame generally goes for character who can fly super fast and aren't really physical fighters, like Sailor Moon, for example
Unless this is something like Kain's "jump" ability which is a conscious decision to boost himself and said "amp" only lasts while said ability is being used and nowhere else
So let me get this straight.. You claiming Human Torch and Storm are both speedsters simply because they can fly really fast using their powers?
That's ridiculous.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Again, who are we comparing to Superman to make such comparisons? Even then, why would this discredit him being massively hypersonic now?Humans are only generally 6 to 15 meters per second (I believe?) in terms of movement. To assume Superman would be limited to low end superhuman attack speed when he's shown Mach triple digit feats, well, is ****ing idiotic. Akin to the same shit the Phenom Brigade and Moses and his MVC retard gang spouted off in comic vs DBZ threads with the "combat speed" nonsense
First of all I never once said MOS is limited to "low end" superhuman attack speed.
I'm arguing the proof that his combat speed is "MASSIVELY HYPERSONIC.."
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Curious to know how you define "combat speed" if we don't use notable speed feats over how fast fights "appeared". Well, I'm waiting/que the MVC-esque "can only be measured in combat" shtick
"Combat Speed" is the speed he's capable of fighting and reacting at regardless of the distance.
If he was thinking and moving at the sorts of speeds your claiming, then we would have seen like 1000 punches in a second. But we got nothing of the sort.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/13-general-obd-terms/79-combat-speed-fallacyI suggest you read it. All of it
Seems like the guy whose written that is quite butthurt in debates.
I see his point, but there are flaws in it.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Seems like the guy whose written that is quite butthurt in debates.I see his point, but there are flaws in it.
What are those flaws?
One of the flaws I noticed was a clear bias against DB characters. He seems very butthurt about DB stuff, for some reason.
Also, Goku can sense characters not only across the universe, but in different dimensions. 🙂 Take that, "dust mote" guy. 🙂
Edit - But, overall, his points are pretty spot-on and correct. Combat speed and flight speed are definitely 2 different things. Flying in one direction at mach 100 does not require you dodge stuff. Running the same distance at that same speed (the speed would actually be higher due to the altitude changes in the terrain) would require you to have the reflexes to dodge and move...which will effectively translate to combat speed.
Originally posted by dadudemon
What are those flaws?
Well he says this towards the end:
Even if we were to accept that a character can't perceive or react anywhere near as fast as they can physically move (and this is rarely true of any characters in fiction), the character with the faster movement speed still has the advantage. This can be demonstrated as follows:
Say Character A has a movement speed and combat speed of 1,000, and Character B has a movement speed of 1,000,000 but a combat speed of only 100. There are still many winning strategies for Character B, for example, bumrushing Character A at maximum speed. If Character A can't get out of the way in time, then he's dead (assuming Character B has the power to hurt him). Even if Character A manages to dodge, Character B can simply continue on his path until he has reached a safe distance from Character A, then re-aim and try again. Eventually he's bound to land a hit.
You see he's right that Character B can probably win in that scenario. But that's not really got much to do with combat speed. That's to do with a combatant's versatility. No one's denying that being able to fly at Super Mach speeds isn't damn useful in a fight. Especially when you have the durability to take the impacts at such speed.
But that still doesn't mean that said character can just walk up to his opponent and throw a punch at 200,000 mph, and dodge every punch his opponent throws.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Edit - But, overall, his points are pretty spot-on and correct. Combat speed and flight speed are definitely 2 different things. Flying in one direction at mach 100 does not require you dodge stuff. Running the same distance at that same speed (the speed would actually be higher due to the altitude changes in the terrain) would require you to have the reflexes to dodge and move...which will effectively translate to combat speed.
I thought he's arguing you can't really distinguish between combat and flight speed.
I agree with you that they are definitely 2 different things, and that Running speed is usually a damn good indicator. For one having the reflexes to maneuver like you said, but also if you can run that fast, then you can move your legs that fast so you can obviously kick damn fast. And if you can kick damn fast chances are you can punch damn fast too. (It would be very odd if your punches were a lot slower than your kicks).
And like you said the runner can maneuver around things while he's running so he won't have a problem avoiding punches and hits either, since that's just something else to maneuver around.
Conclusion - The Flash rules 😛
Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, this is generally fairly easy to guesstimate. They cannot orbit too far out or they will lose the protection that the Van Allen Radiation Belt offers.About tree-fiddy (350 miles) on the mileage would be a safe estimate.
Since I do not have access to the movie, at the moment, can you use that number to come up with an average velocity for them? Just time how long it took them to fly up to the satellite (if there are no obvious cuts that make it seem like there was a time jump) and use 350 miles as your denominator to come up with the average velocity.
Okay I said I'd figure out the math for this the other day. Yes there was a cut scene. Zod is the aggressor and flies Supes out of the atmosphere. Then there is a cut scene to Zod, (presumably)being on the defensive and he grabs the satellite to prevent him from going further out of earths atmosphere. Superman follows after him about 1-2 seconds later. Around 11 seconds passes between when they start to leave and and then end up. What happened, and how long it took, in between the cut is anyone's guess. But what is known is that Zod went from being on offense to being on defense.
I still think Shaw wins a punch for punch confrontation. Supes can bfr.
Originally posted by meep-meep
Okay I said I'd figure out the math for this the other day. Yes there was a cut scene. Zod is the aggressor and flies Supes out of the atmosphere. Then there is a cut scene to Zod, (presumably)being on the defensive and he grabs the satellite to prevent him from going further out of earths atmosphere. Superman follows after him about 1-2 seconds later. Around 11 seconds passes between when they start to leave and and then end up. What happened, and how long it took, in between the cut is anyone's guess. But what is known is that Zod went from being on offense to being on defense.I still think Shaw wins a punch for punch confrontation. Supes can bfr.
11 seconds is quite a long time, actually. Shaw may take this. I believe the goal was for Superman to fly about 100 times faster than the explosive front of a grenade. Here's why I come up with that: it is past the limit required to penetrate through shaws entire body before it can adapt. The grenade damaged him enough to cause him to bleed so that at least damaged some blood vessels underneath his skin (epidermis, dermis, and subdermis). Penetrating the rest of the way through the body OR penetrating enough to deliver a lethal punch would require someone move much faster than the explosive front of a grenade over the same period of time. So instead of traveling 4mm through Shaw's skin, it travels the entire distance through the back of his head (a fist).
Does that make sense? That was my logic waaay back at the beginning of this thread: the delay in Shaw's body to adapt. Shaw's body adapts absurdly quickly. That cannot be denied. But does Superman have the speed to exceed that quickness of adaptation?
But I don't actually remember how show got the bloody mouth...I thought it was the grenade.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I thought he's arguing you can't really distinguish between combat and flight speed.I agree with you that they are definitely 2 different things, and that Running speed is usually a damn good indicator. For one having the reflexes to maneuver like you said, but also if you can run that fast, then you can move your legs that fast so you can obviously kick damn fast. And if you can kick damn fast chances are you can punch damn fast too. (It would be very odd if your punches were a lot slower than your kicks).
And like you said the runner can maneuver around things while he's running so he won't have a problem avoiding punches and hits either, since that's just something else to maneuver around.
Conclusion - The Flash rules 😛
lol, truth.
Originally posted by dadudemon
11 seconds is quite a long time, actually. Shaw may take this. I believe the goal was for Superman to fly about 100 times faster than the explosive front of a grenade. Here's why I come up with that: it is past the limit required to penetrate through shaws entire body before it can adapt. The grenade damaged him enough to cause him to bleed so that at least damaged some blood vessels underneath his skin (epidermis, dermis, and subdermis). Penetrating the rest of the way through the body OR penetrating enough to deliver a lethal punch would require someone move much faster than the explosive front of a grenade over the same period of time. So instead of traveling 4mm through Shaw's skin, it travels the entire distance through the back of his head (a fist).Does that make sense? That was my logic waaay back at the beginning of this thread: the delay in Shaw's body to adapt. Shaw's body adapts absurdly quickly. That cannot be denied. But does Superman have the speed to exceed that quickness of adaptation?
But I don't actually remember how show got the bloody mouth...I thought it was the grenade.
It was likely at least a little longer considering the cut scene. But 11 secs is what we see, so yeah. It was still damn fast.
Interesting note though. When supes was training himself you can clearly see him hitting another level once he gains altitude. I didn't see him hitting that same level while cruising around earth.
I thought the bloody lip was during the atrium scene? It didn't happen there. Meh, I'll check out the grenade scene again later.
Like I said MOS is damn fast but until I can confirm with my own eyes this bloody mouth feat Kevbakeshawshab has got the h2h.
Originally posted by God Cloth Seiya
When did Shaw absorb kinetic energy of a caliber similar to superman? I don't ever recalling him absorbing physical damage either.
Draining a reactor nearly empty is above anything superman was shown to be able to reproduce punching things. So he was actually was shown absorbing more than Superman was shown dishing out.
Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Shaw was amped from the core. None of his abilities of absorbing before that showed any super human strength or the ability to reproduce them.He cannot even replicate others powers and receives slight amp from mutants powers. He knew he had to amp from the core to contend with Magneto and the X Men.
He has zero brawling feats, he has zero super human feats on Superman's level.
Ummmm he was shown throwing a normal sized human stories into the air with one hand... this was before he was shown absorbing much of anything. Clearly he was superhuman strength even when not absorbing very much at all. The guy shot him with some bullets and he was flung several stories in the air with utter ease. Absorbing superman level punches... well... his strength will be increased that much more.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Draining a reactor nearly empty is above anything superman was shown to be able to reproduce punching things. So he was actually was shown absorbing more than Superman was shown dishing out.
Pretty sure tanking the world engine blast, then flying through it and destroying the whole ship was above absorbing radiation from uranium.