Originally posted by abhilegend
And what level would that be? I was asking in marvel terms.
It's kind of hard to place him, tbh. Because he also has quite an amount of low showings (which are really low). If we go by high showings only, id put him on multiversal Eternity's level. However, his low showings kind of diminish that power, which is the main reason he's comparable to someone like Mordru. On average, id put him above Galactus but below someone like Eternity.
When i was ranking him on Dominus' level, i was mostly thinking of his high showings, to be fair.
Originally posted by operator616Who has TT beat, and who has beaten him?
It's kind of hard to place him, tbh. Because he also has quite an amount of low showings (which are really low). If we go by high showings only, id put him on multiversal Eternity's level. However, his low showings kind of diminish that power, which is the main reason he's comparable to someone like Mordru. On average, id put him above Galactus but below someone like Eternity.When i was ranking him on Dominus' level, i was mostly thinking of his high showings, to be fair.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Who has TT beat, and who has beaten him?
Well, he killed Pocket Universe Superboy (essentially Pre Crisis Superboy preserved from the Crisis) outright, nearly killed Mon El, and shrugged off whatever the Legion threw at him.
And it's only through pis that he didn't just outright kill them, as he needs them to exist. I mean, he created a barrier in time that Superboy and Mon El couldn't pierce, but the barrier was used as a kind of chronal bomb on Phantom Girl, sending her back in time where she became Phase of Vril Dox's L.E.G.I.O.N (You know, Lobo's team when he's not messing with heroes). A weapon like that alone is pretty much impossible to defend against..
Plus there's what Abhi said about wiping out most of a universe, except for PC Superboy and Earth, which includes the likes of Mordru and various skyfather level entities.
Originally posted by operator616
But to answer your question: in LOSH v4 #4 time Trapper actually warped all timelines so that when the LOSH time travel to "superboy"'s timeline which was in the 1930s until Superboy v1 #171 changed it into 1950s, they end up in his own pocket dimension:
Anyway, perhaps I'm missing something not clarified in those scans, cause tbh, the feat is a wtf.
Originally posted by Mr Master
It's not your fault, ... but this feat makes no sense if that's the sole reasoning behind re-arranging an entire multiverse.
I mean, he warped an infinite amount of universes to affect a handful of time-travelers? 😐Reminds me of an argument where cats had Jean manipulating an entire universe to affect Scott's mind.
Anyway, perhaps I'm missing something not clarified in those scans, cause tbh, the feat is a wtf.
The LOSH was inspired by Superboy, and with the Crisis, Superboy no longer existed. This convoluted Pocket Universe story was Byrnes solution to the problem.
Which broke down around Zero Hour, leading to the destruction of the pocket universe, leading to yet more replacement inspirations.. Basically, the LOSH never should have linked their history to mainstream continuity after the Crisis and done their own thing, like Ultimates. Have their own Superboy forever if they wanted to, and never ever cross over with the mainstream universe..
Hindsight, I guess.
Originally posted by cdtmSo... no one important to place him above Galactus level, or Eternity level?
Well, he killed Pocket Universe Superboy (essentially Pre Crisis Superboy preserved from the Crisis) outright, nearly killed Mon El, and shrugged off whatever the Legion threw at him.And it's only through pis that he didn't just outright kill them, as he needs them to exist. I mean, he created a barrier in time that Superboy and Mon El couldn't pierce, but the barrier was used as a kind of chronal bomb on Phantom Girl, sending her back in time where she became Phase of Vril Dox's L.E.G.I.O.N (You know, Lobo's team when he's not messing with heroes). A weapon like that alone is pretty much impossible to defend against..
Plus there's what Abhi said about wiping out most of a universe, except for PC Superboy and Earth, which includes the likes of Mordru and various skyfather level entities.
And I think him killing Mordru would have been a big deal, but all he did was slice out a sliver of time.
Originally posted by Mr MasterYou could take it as him warping every universe, or you could see it as him specifically only altering their path to the past. No matter from what universe they entered, they would all end up in the same universe without his manipulation. All he did was switch the path with his pocket universe instead. Mind you it would have still taken a lot of power, but still.
It's not your fault, ... but this feat makes no sense if that's the sole reasoning behind re-arranging an entire multiverse.
I mean, he warped an infinite amount of universes to affect a handful of time-travelers? 😐Anyway, perhaps I'm missing something not clarified in those scans, cause tbh, the feat is a wtf.
I mean, the guy was scared of Mordru who was destined to be a universal ruler... when he wasn't a ruler yet. Are we to really presume he can warp the multiverse in any significant way?
Originally posted by cdtm
The LOSH was inspired by Superboy, and with the Crisis, Superboy no longer existed. This convoluted Pocket Universe story was Byrnes solution to the problem.Which broke down around Zero Hour, leading to the destruction of the pocket universe, leading to yet more replacement inspirations.. Basically, the LOSH never should have linked their history to mainstream continuity after the Crisis and done their own thing, like Ultimates. Have their own Superboy forever if they wanted to, and never ever cross over with the mainstream universe..
Hindsight, I guess.
Also, is that "timelines" reference being interpreted properly via context,
cause I'm still not seeing the logic behind such a momentous feat to achieve such a minute result?
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
or you could see it as him specifically only altering their path to the past. No matter from what universe they entered, they would all end up in the same universe without his manipulation. All he did was switch the path with his pocket universe instead. Mind you it would have still taken a lot of power, but still.I mean, the guy was scared of Mordru who was destined to be a universal ruler... when he wasn't a ruler yet. Are we to really presume he can warp the multiverse in any significant way?
Seems like a vast time manipulator rather than a multi-reality manipulator
which is why he had to go through that trouble to attain his goal.
I heard he destroyed most of a universe, so he should be at-least close if not universal.
(I don't however know how he did it)
Originally posted by Mr Master
I see, so this story isn't or wasn't supposed to be canon to mainstream?
Or Byrne did try to squeeze it in and instead made a mess?
There was crossover with Byrnes Superman. Just before Trapper killed Superboy in his final Legion story.
So yeah, Byrne tried to squeeze it in. The thing is, unlike mainstream stories, Legion continuity insists on keeping its entire Pre Crisis history intact, so creating a Pre Crisis Superboy from a pocket universe probably looked like a good idea at the time.. When that didn't pan out, Mon El (The Legions Daxamite, with the same power set as Superboy) was retconned into Superboys role in many past stories, and they created a female Daxamite out of nowhere called Laural Gand who played Supergirls past roles.
The tl:dr version, Legion continuity is a mess, and even long time readers struggle to make sense of it. They rival Hawkman in that you regard.
Also, is that "timelines" reference being interpreted properly via context,
cause I'm still not seeing the logic behind such a momentous feat to achieve such a minute result?
Trapper somehow arranged it so the Legion (or Superboy) went to his pocket universe every time they tried to reach mainstream DC's past. Again, his excuse was so Superboy could inspire the Legion so that he could exist, and the writers rational was to try and preserve past Legion history intact, all the way back to their days as a backup story in Superboy.
Originally posted by Mr Master
👆 That actually makes sense and gives logic to the timelines reference.Seems like a vast time manipulator rather than a multi-reality manipulator
which is why he had to go through that trouble to attain his goal.I heard he destroyed most of a universe, so he should be at-least close if not universal.
(I don't however know how he did it)
Posted by Abhi in the last page:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16624862/Action_Comics_591_-_08.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16624864/AdventuresOfSuperman444p04and05.jpg.html
Originally posted by Mr MasterHere's the actual feat being done.
Also, is that "timelines" reference being interpreted properly via context,
cause I'm still not seeing the logic behind such a momentous feat to achieve such a minute result?
Trapper stating he was actively guiding them.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0006.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg
Basically the Trapper was just directing them there. Just like he was in the Green Lantern scenario (directed the GL energy into the time stream where it would hit a shitload of other realities). He wasn't actually warping other universes, and it appears I was wrong on him even warping their direction without his guidance.
Just a note, but (weakened) Time Trapper got beaten to death by Mon-El in the same story he stated he warped all timelines, so that.
His feats are beyond Odin's feats and he's an avatar of entropy. He can stalemate Infinite Man in raw power who derives his power from every point of time and space.
http://i.imgur.com/bphYjk5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/U327JIt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OEg7EVn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hI189qq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SyYjkST.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tNE2AMb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HTfHUxy.jpg
And he returned even from one place which totally contradicts his existence aka the birth of universe.
That's better than anything Odin has done against an abstract. He has also casually stopped the crisis wave from destroying the pocket universe which was an unprecedented feat. So he has better feats than Odin in just two dozen or such showings.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Here's the actual feat being done.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0007.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0008.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0009.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0010.jpgTrapper stating he was actively guiding them.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0006.jpghttp://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg
Basically the Trapper was just directing them there. Just like he was in the Green Lantern scenario (directed the GL energy into the time stream where it would hit a shitload of other realities). He wasn't actually warping other universes, and it appears I was wrong on him even warping their direction without his guidance.
Just a note, but (weakened) Time Trapper got beaten to death by Mon-El in the same story he stated he warped all timelines, so that.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Time Trapper warping the timelines. At all. It's a completely different instance. Well, firstly because that happened about 30 years prior to your scans, off-panel. The chronological time period in which Time Trapper performed this feat is right before Adventure Comics #247 (1958). Because that's when the Legion (there were only 3 members back then) traveled to Superboy's time period (back then, 1930s). And ever since TT was manipulating them. It was confirmed multiple times that Time Trapper tampering with time (back then, it wasn't known that "all timelines" were affected, just that he tampered with time) is what caused the Legion to always meet Trapper's Superboy, here's one from AC #591:
http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg
And this post-crisis Superman issue outright references Legion's very first appearance in Adventure Comics #247 (first four scans summarize the issue exactly as it is, and the last one references various pre-crisis Legion adventures)
http://i.imgur.com/CL91lQs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/45mMHoH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RXkcEDg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o09Jxw2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ziPcst2.jpg
And we know Time Trapper arranged all that (this was confirmed multiple times):
http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg
Then after this, the revelation in LOSH v4 came that TT warped "all timelines" to achieve this. That's why you won't find Time Trapper actually doing this feat live. Because it was a revelation which came later. Well that, and because back in his early adventure comics appearances he was signficantly weaker than we know him to be in his later Pre-Zero Hour and Post-Zero Hour appearances. Which is understandable since that time period of comics didn't feature cosmic beings like they did in the bronze age (i mean, there were some, heck, i remember Luthor becoming omnipotent even in the Golden Age, but it was very rare) Just take a look at Adventure Comics #338, where Time Trapper transforms (through technology) some of the Legion members into babies and when the curtain of time fades away (which curtails time travel) Superboy appears and TT is afraid of him. He wasn't as powerful as back then. But he became later, which is why this was a revelation afterward.
Anyway, what your scans show is Superboy -- who was capable of time traveling under his own power, unlike Bryne's Superman -- breaking the time barrier to transport the Legion to the Time Trapper who was threatening Superboy's universe unless he delivered him the Legion. Nothing to do with the timelines warping.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Just a note, but (weakened) Time Trapper got beaten to death by Mon-El in the same story he stated he warped all timelines, so that.
OK, first of all, Mon-el didn't beat Time Trapper to death, it was Glorith that did that afterwards.
So, Mon-el supposedly kills Time Trapper in issue #4, then in issue #13, Time Trapper says that Mon-el merely destroyed his form but not his essence:
http://i.imgur.com/Ov0ctm2.jpg?1
Also, you might wanna emphasize on the "weakened" part. Because TT was more than just "weakened" he was damn near close death. Infinite Man beat him to near Death in LOSH v3 #50. He was so weak that he literally hid a spark of himself inside Mon-el. So imagine at what power-level he must be operating at?
http://i.imgur.com/0SKCkNy.jpg?1
Lastly, saying that Mon-el "killed" the Time Trapper in the same story where he was stated to warp timelines is completely irrelevant, because he didn't warp the timelines in that story (i already explained this in detail), so im not sure what's your point here?
